There are only two genders. Change my mind.

mrdude

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If we can observe the animal kingdom (which humans happen to be subjects of) and determine marked and utterly distinct differences between the males and females of any particular species, I see absolutely no logic in denying that the same exact dichotomy would be represented in homo sapiens sapiens.

Also, Animals don't wear clothes or take drugs or wear makeup to pretend they are something they are not. If some people are deluded enough to think they are something they are not, that's up to them. They shouldn't try and force others to be as whacky as they are with their mental issues. I'm sick of the mainstream media and the PC types trying to tell other people what they should believe or how to act. Nature made males and females and you do get the odd genetic anomalies such as hermaphrodites and certain animals that can change sex, but in general nature kills things like that out eventually and only the strong survive - and with the suicide rates for those with mental issues - that's just natures way of taking them out.
 
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Silent_Gunner

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My answer:

There's two sexes, and two genders as far as I'm concerned. I never gave a shit about what one considers to be "masculine" or "feminine" as long as it isn't too out there (I won't say anything if you're a guy into MLP, but you can't change what I truly am thinking in my head about it). I watched Powerpuff Girls back when Cartoon Network was the shit, and my parents, Independent Fundamental Baptist as they are, never judged me for it. They didn't like Courage the Cowardly Dog because it was scary and Johnny Bravo because of the episode where he gets destroyed by not-Darth Vader and ends up in Hell. Ed, Ed, and Eddy was also a no-go because of the humor and swearing...yeah, Christian Prayer Warrior safe spaces bullshit that isn't trying to stay as normal as it used to with crap like War Room, prayer closets, prayer "warriors" (that's literally what they call for in the movie's climax), and the fact that said movie's star, the wife, was a speaker for some event that my parents' church promoted.

Thankfully, they aren't ANYTHING at all like Steven Anderson or the fucking Duggars.
 

bitjacker

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Why am I a bigot because I refuse acknowledge someone's fantasy of being something other than what grew from HIS/ HER dna information? The dsm 3 is actually not that old. I believe it mentions gender confusion. It was only removed from the dsm 4 because there is nothing for insurance to pay for. YES, disorders and diseases are only classified to reimburse for insurance payments.
What is required to remain pc is just too much. I won't relinquish my right to have my beliefs and opinions. I wont hate speech if something is not forced upon me. How about that? Can people agree to disagree?
 
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Rune

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The idea that "biological sex" and "gender" are not directly linked to and reflective of each other is, itself, a purely social construct. The idea that we can or should separate "sex" and "gender" is, itself, a relatively new social construct. Since we're talking about what is or isn't a social construct, and all.

Funny how humans managed to survive in our current form for 10,000 years, but only in the past decade have we tried to force other people to ignore everything they've ever learned or experienced in relation to anatomical biology, in favor of protecting the tender and sensitive feels of the mentally ill.

We're normalizing and mainstreaming psychological delusion, and that's not a good solution. The increased risk of suicide among those identifying as "transgender" is somewhere around 40%. Mainstreaming delusion won't address the underlying MENTAL ILLNESS that "transgendered" individuals are suffering from.

We shouldn't treat the symptoms of gender dysphoria with dishonesty and lies. We should treat the MENTAL DISORDER, itself. Even if 100% of the people on the planet were fine with accepting a post-op "transgendered" individual as the gender they are pretending to be, that wouldn't change the MENTAL ILLNESS they are suffering from. Their increased risk of suicidality would be exactly what it is, today, even if the whole world was willing to become liars and mollycoddlers.
The thought that sex and gender are the same is also a social construct. Yeah, this new age definition of gender is a relatively new social construct, but being new doesn't take any credibility away from it. Lots of things are new. We survived 10,000 years without the internet. That's no reason to suggest we'd be fine without it today. Times change, we learn new things, and mentally we evolve. We thought the Earth was flat for 10,000 years. We've only known it was round for about 2,000 years.

Our understanding today is that your biological sex and gender aren't the same thing. We've moved on (or at least try to move on) from times where stereotypes were so common. There were times where people expected men and women to have certain rights, certain jobs, dress a certain way, etc. We now live in a time where people have been liberated from those ideas. And "gender" is an extension of that liberation and is a way of differentiating you from what was expected of you based on the past stereotypical view of your biological sex.
So when someone says "all those other genders aren't real", that's like someone telling you how you live your life isn't real or your preference isn't real. As if someone's telling you how you should be and what you should look like. Imagine being called mental because you like something that society decided you shouldn't like. Sounds ridiculous. Their preference is as real as whether or not you prefer pineapple on your pizza. Gender is basically how you live your life. There's no "wrong" way to do it. And since there are so many ways to go about it, it has to be non-binary. So yes, there are more than two genders. If you think there are only two, then you're thinking of "sex", not "gender". Gender isnt the same as sex today.

Regarding suicides, looking into suicide rates of transgender and homosexual people in society is of course going to show some correlation when we're talking about a group of people who usually have to live their lives without social acceptance. The suicide rates are higher in poor people compared to the rich. Is being poor a mental disorder? You're over twice as likely to commit suicide if you're divorced. Does that suggest being divorced is a mental illness? It seems pretty clear to me that the people who commit suicide are those who hate their lives. Plain and simple. Maybe if we accepted these people, some of them wont want to kill themselves. Its funny how recently we've seen a significant improvement in suicide rates of gay and lesbian people, specifically in states where same sex marriage has become legal. Surely not a coincidence.
If you cant understand or agree upon the modern definition of gender, that doesn't mean you simply chalk it up as being a mental disorder. 5,000 years ago, people would've called you mental if you said the Earth was round.

Now while I may seem like I'm being some kind of social justice warrior here, I still firmly believe that too many boundaries are being pushed. For example, I don't think a female that used to be a male, should be allowed to compete with other females in professional sports. So I'm not saying a female who used to be a male, should be treated like a female. Our problem IMO is that when people say "man" or "woman", we dont know whether we're talking about sex or gender. Things like sports or even restrooms should strictly be divided by biological sex. I dont agree with pretending a man is a woman just because that person made some life choices.

But having said that, the topic of the thread here was about there only being two genders, and I think that's wrong. Its natural that if you're opposing the idea of transgender people being accepted into society like traditional male or females, that you reject the credibility of their gender. How we accommodate them in society is a different discussion altogether though.
There are more than two genders, whether we like it or not.
 
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Enkuler

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There are more than two genders, whether we like it or not.
I'm only quoting this in your post because that's the only thing I disagree with (well except that part about pineapple on pizza but that's a bit offtopic).
Basically your post as a whole says "having the society force on people one among two genders, especially based on sex, is an idea from the past". I agree.
But then the thing that bothers me is the conclusion. My conclusion would be "let's get rid of that dumb gender notion altogether", and not "let's add more genders to the list".
In the end we both agree to live people live their life the way they want to, but I'm still curious to know why people want to add more categories to the problematic categories.
 
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Rune

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I'm only quoting this in your post because that's the only thing I disagree with (well except that part about pineapple on pizza but that's a bit offtopic).
Basically your post as a whole says "having the society force on people one among two genders, especially based on sex, is an idea from the past". I agree.
But then the thing that bothers me is the conclusion. My conclusion would be "let's get rid of that dumb gender notion altogether", and not "let's add more genders to the list".
In the end we both agree to live people live their life the way they want to, but I'm still curious to know why people want to add more categories to the problematic categories.
Because we can't stop how they want to live their lives. So we can't pretend they dont exist. I'm not saying having so many genders is the ideal thing to do. I'm just saying its something we have to accept as reality.
 
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In most aspects, through out history, and even still now. Gender was usually interchangeably used for sexes, aka male and female. It's only till recently, we decided we now need to bring out the spectrum of how feminine or masculine a person is.
And because of this whole situation of making gender needing to mean more beyond it's initial meaning of a social word that for quite some time people used as a synonym for sex, that to me personally, it doesn't matter.
A word looses it's meaning when there is no clear answer to it's meaning. And at this point someone telling me that they are a different gender than what their sex is just tells me that due to unfortunate hormone mix they perceive themselves differently. And I don't truly fucking care if you think your different. If you want to be a female even though your sexually a man. Fine, I'll just change my vocab to specifically say that your sexual gender. Needing gender pronouns are getting silly. So I'll wait for when gender pronouns become sex pronouns, or something that is close to that word

In the states we used gender as a means to avoid the taboo word of sex. Which yes, is actually taboo in the states. (And violence isn't) which is likely why we shifted to use gender instead of sex, in means to sound less dirty (even though it's not a truly dirty word)
So now you have people who can't use the word gender as it suddenly and abruptly no longer means what it used to mean out of the blue almost. Which is a nightmare for folks. So now you have a... semi small group of people, trying to change a very common word to fit their ideals. I'm not saying it's entirely wrong, but I'm not going to say that is a good idea either. As now that puts people in the states to start using the word sex to define someone as male or female in situations were the word gender would of normally applied, but now doesn't.
 
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bitjacker

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You still have the right to refer to someones gender as it is legally identified. Outrage culture is a fad. Be the change... if someone demands that you be pc, do your civic duty and hurt some feelings.
 

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Because we can't stop how they want to live their lives. So we can't pretend they dont exist. I'm not saying having so many genders is the ideal thing to do. I'm just saying its something we have to accept as reality.
I think you got me wrong. I never said we should stop how people want to live. I'm not saying either that we should get rid of all genders except the two "main ones". I meant that we should get rid of all genders including the two "main ones".
So basically, people are people. No need to put that specific person in the feminine/masculine/other category. People live their lives and we accept it.
 
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Rune

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I think you got me wrong. I never said we should stop how people want to live. I'm not saying either that we should get rid of all genders except the two "main ones". I meant that we should get rid of all genders including the two "main ones".
So basically, people are people. No need to put that specific person in the feminine/masculine/other category. People live their lives and we accept it.
Oh right, yeah. That's sort of how I feel.
 

deinonychus71

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People can be whatever they want in the private sphere.

Just don't force it on people. Worse (and I know that's not everyone) don't be conveniently offended when someone makes a "mistake". They are not in your head, and most of us still follows the "normative" "social construct" and you have no right to force others to adopt yours.

Also "it's a social construct" isn't an argument by itself. You gotta explain why it's a bad one. I see nothing bad in attaching a social notion to physical attributes. That doesn't mean you can't dress up like you want or talk like you want or anything.
 
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AmandaRose

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The only thing that truly matters is that each and every one of us is a human being. And as intelligent humans we should know to treat everyone with love and respect. And that's something some of you that have posted here especially over the last few pages should try to remember.
 
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goldensun87

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All right, I will try to provide a more substantial input. Gender is not "just a social construct". Sex and gender may not be the same, but sex is the foundation for the core gender roles. For core gender roles, we have two primary roles, each of which includes two or more subroles. Let us call these two roles: "provider" and "caretaker"/"caregiver". Traditionally, the male of the house provided for the household, in primitive times by hunting game to provide meat and planting crops to grow produce, and in modern times by trading goods/services for currency to purchase those same rations along with other necessary supplies. Traditionally, the female of the house kept the home clean, cooked for the family, and took care of the children. In primitive times, the female would also have to sew clothes for the family, with the source material needing to be harvested from sheep for wool, and from cotton plants.

Males and females were traditionally assigned the roles of provider and caretaker/caregiver, respectively, primarily because of the physical differences between men and women, which are, for the most part, governed by sex. Historically, males were naturally the providers due to possessing superior physical strength, and women were naturally the caretakers/caregivers, because biologically, only females can give birth, and female hormones make females better emotionally suited to taking care of children and being caretakers/caregivers in general.

Fast forward to modern times. It is true that gender roles get switched between the two sexes every now and then, due to women scoring good salary jobs and men not being able to and having to take on the female gender roles. However, the fact of the matter is, there is no substantial basis for the argument that there are more than two genders, due to two facts: 1) The existing gender roles themselves have not actually changed. Polygamous relationships aside, if one spouse is working to earn money for the household, the other spouse has to become the caretaker/caregiver of the household, whether he/she likes it or not. If both spouses are working and earning money, then the couple will have to share both gender roles to some extent. And 2) As far as I know, no new gender roles have been created. And if that statement holds true, then the term "transgender" is a baseless concept, whose only purpose is to sugarcoat the fact that an individual suffering from gender dysmorphia, chose to mutilate his or her body past the point of no return. Assuming such individuals enter into a civil union with another individual, they are not contributing any new/additional gender roles, to justify creating any new genders past the two core genders which are rooted in and governed by the two sexes.

My honest point of view: If you are a male living in a "free" society, but decide that you are "wired" to align with female gender roles/activities, you can engage in said activities without mutilating yourself. If you are female, theoretically you should have it easier. Society has been accepting of "tomboy" girls long before they were accepting even of homosexuals. So again, if you want to be more like a man, you do not have to mutilate yourself. Because by doing unnecessary shit like that, all you are doing is making life more complicated for yourself.
 

DayVeeBoi

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In the end we both agree to live people live their life the way they want to, but I'm still curious to know why people want to add more categories to the problematic categories.
I agree with both of these two preceding comments and just want to bring attention to where I think the whole root of the problem lies, and that is in the forcing of the issue, particularly in cases like Canada where they want to enshrine the notion into law.
The law is very slow to change once it has been demarcated, and I don't think we should create new laws for any "in vogue" ideas, particularly involving language as language is much more malleable than the law and tends to always be in a state of flux.

Addendum: I just wanted to add that, I do understand that the law is also a constantly changing beast as well, (everything is in a state of change at all times, just the act of observing is enough to create a change) but the law is positively glacial in comparison to language and is much easier to add to, than to take away from.
 
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