Hacking Discussion Team Xecuter Attempted to Bribe RetroNX Developers

[The Catboy]

If we agree on nothing else, you did at least post this and I expect you to hold him a little bit accountable and not coddle him like he's some poor, uninformed victim. He specifically mentioned tivoization in this very thread, in the context of "the team changing their mind on _____" - I believe that was a MAJOR slip up for him to admit that he discussed those types of licensing issues in depth with TX. Not so easy to claim it was all a joke, in my opinion!

I don't believe any of my snippets are out of context at all. You can click the arrow icon next to the quote to be taken to the exact post. He said what he said, and he did so pretty clearly. I only snipped the middle part of a quote ONCE and I denoted it with the standard "[...]"

If what he said looks bad without pages of context, maybe he shouldn't have said it?

I am not saying he's some uninformed person and he most likely knew what he was getting himself into when he accepted a conversation with them. But if he outright just declined talking them, then we won't know just how far they willing to go. Equally he hasn't even claimed these were joke comments, I am pretty sure he's being serious.
The tivoization wasn't a comment about a company changing their mind, in fact that's not even what the tivoization case was about. He made that comment in reference to Gary saying they would have released it for free without the licence, which is what the tivoization case was about and why the GPL3 was made.
Saying that he shouldn't make comments that can be taken out of context is a moot argument.

 

[smf]

He made that comment in reference to Gary saying they would have released it for free without the licence, which is what the tivoization case was about and why the GPL3 was made.
Saying that he shouldn't make comments that can be taken out of context is a moot argument.

tivoization was made because tivo gave you all the code to the apps, but not the key to sign the binary with & so you couldn't modify the code and run it. Which was perfectly legal and is supported by linux and busybox. But Stallman being a communist went berzerk. Tivo need DRM or content providers won't deal with them & they would close their doors, so the bootloader has to reject unsigned apps. Linus understood this and so ironically the tivoisation clause doesn't affect tivo because Linus refuses to license under GPLv3.

Were TX really going to only run signed versions of RA? Or is this another case of libretro misunderstanding? (I think it is)

It was brought up in response to "Also just a quick note: there is nothing in the GPLv3 which disallows you from modifying the GPL software so it only works with a very specific hardware. You are only not allowed to modify the hardware, so it only runs one program under GPL."

Which is an awkward way of saying it, but it's true. I can take a GPLv3 program and make it super cool by relying on hardware that only I can make and that is fine. You have all the software, you can compile it and you can run it on my super cool hardware. I have no obligation to make it run super cool on your ghetto hardware, imagine if you weren't allowed to copy anything from an existing device driver when creating a new one.

I can't really think of a situation where it would be relevant to TX, because there hardware isn't going to be able to do anything that complicated and if you have the source code then you can remove any simple checks.

 

[jester_]

The tivoization wasn't a comment about a company changing their mind, in fact that's not even what the tivoization case was about. He made that comment in reference to Gary saying they would have released it for free without the licence, which is what the tivoization case was about and why the GPL3 was made.

I know exactly what the term means, and we can draw some logical reasons why they might be talking about it. But you cannot be sure of their intent or the content of their conversations; m4x himself said "tivoization" in the context of "the team" changing their minds on some issues.

Me, blackmailing TX? Getting a better offer from libretro with their measily income thats barely enough to keep everything going?
It being part of the free version? You forgot to say that the Team changed their opinion on that, also tivoization.

I'd say a rational inference, considering we have chat room logs being withheld by both parties (well, m4x's seeming surprise at the existence of logs at all!), is that he was part of "the team" for awhile. As more logs are posted, he will be depicted in a worsening light because he thought nobody was logging the chats.

lol

Were TX really going to only run signed versions of RA? Or is this another case of libretro misunderstanding? (I think it is)
-snip-
It was brought up in response to "Also just a quick note: there is nothing in the GPLv3 which disallows you from modifying the GPL software so it only works with a very specific hardware. You are only not allowed to modify the hardware, so it only runs one program under GPL."
-snip-
I can't really think of a situation where it would be relevant to TX, because there hardware isn't going to be able to do anything that complicated and if you have the source code then you can remove any simple checks.

Yeah it wasn't going to be about signed shit in my opinion, I think they were trying to weasel their way around licenses and find loopholes for this "RetroSX" thing to be pulled off without m4x catching too much flak ("turns out it was unenforceable the whole time! cya!")

My speculation is that it is the community backlash was one of the factors for the deal not working out, but for RA to tweet about it and start drama, they clearly didn't know that TX had all these logs. Now, us in the community are left here to speculate and guess in public, while the real talks with the truly affected parties are happening in private.

 

[The Catboy]

I know exactly what the term means, and we can draw some logical reasons why they might be talking about it. But you cannot be sure of their intent or the content of their conversations; m4x himself said "tivoization" in the context of "the team" changing their minds on some issues.

I'd say a rational inference, considering we have chat room logs being withheld by both parties (well, m4x's seeming surprise at the existence of logs at all!), is that he was part of "the team" for awhile. As more logs are posted, he will be depicted in a worsening light because he thought nobody was logging the chats.

lol


Yeah it wasn't going to be about signed shit in my opinion, I think they were trying to weasel their way around licenses and find loopholes for this "RetroSX" thing to be pulled off without m4x catching too much flak ("turns out it was unenforceable the whole time! cya!")

My speculation is that it is the community backlash was one of the factors for the deal not working out, but for RA to tweet about it and start drama, they clearly didn't know that TX had all these logs. Now, us in the community are left here to speculate and guess in public, while the real talks with the truly affected parties are happening in private.

Expect that wouldn't make any sense because that's not what tivoization was about and he should have spaced that out better because it's literally mixing two topics that aren't related to each other.

From the looks of it these conversations were being held through email and discord, which means they were being logged by default. This isn't like they were being held through system that doesn't automatically log chats. Like I said though, they weren't going to be upfront with their intentions. It's going to require getting buddy-buddy with them until they finally reveal their full intentions. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if the logs showed that he was talking money and was getting cozy with them. That's how you get information from these kinds of teams.
I am pretty sure they knew about the logs before the tweet was made. I am not going to speculate why they made the choice to make this public though

 

[jester_]

Expect that wouldn't make any sense because that's not what tivoization was about

Dude, I know what it was about. GPL v2/v3 have been hammered to death in this thread. I'm simply stating that they for sure talked about it, based on m4x literally saying it to garyopa. No inference needed!

From the looks of it these conversations were being held through email and discord, which means they were being logged by default. This isn't like they were being held through system that doesn't automatically log chats.

Sorry, but that's wrong. You are talking about the one Discord picture and the one email that came to light so far. The logs from the private system (and yes, TX will certainly use private messengers to work in groups...) probably look like the ones posted in this thread:

M4X, [13.08.18 13:27]
heh fuck the community

M4X, [13.08.18 13:27]
thats for sure

M4X, [13.08.18 13:27]
little shitbrats

It is very easy and common for someone to self-host a messaging platform on a foreign server, hence all the comments from m4x like "The irony that a team with the feds on their ass would save chat logs" - implies he didn't save any logs, but they did.

 

[The Catboy]

Dude, I know what it was about. GPL v2/v3 have been hammered to death in this thread. I'm simply stating that they for sure talked about it, based on m4x literally saying it to garyopa. No inference needed!

Sorry, but that's wrong. You are talking about the one Discord picture and the one email that came to light so far. The logs from the private system (and yes, TX will certainly use private messengers to work in groups...) probably look like the ones posted in this thread:



It is very easy and common for someone to self-host a messaging platform on a foreign server, hence all the comments from m4x like "The irony that a team with the feds on their ass would save chat logs" - implies he didn't save any logs, but they did.

Honestly I feel like his statement leaves a lot of room and really should be cleared up by him. Otherwise it's just two different interpretations.
I am only going off what I see in the thread, but I think I understand what he is getting at. I don't think it's about them saving the logs, but about them actually making a paper trail. If they are in legal trouble, then keeping any form of a paper trail won't be the best of ideas, especially one that can be so easily flipped on them.
Honestly his views of the community aren't the issue. He is allowed to have his own feelings towards the community.

 

[jester_]

Honestly I feel like his statement leaves a lot of room and really should be cleared up by him.

Yeah, I wish he had a gbatemp account and could actually clear up some speculation with concrete proof. After the shitty things he has done and said, I don't just take his word as gospel. Show proof (but everyone is in a holding pattern and no more logs/proof will be shown, honestly).

 

[smf]

I know exactly what the term means, and we can draw some logical reasons why they might be talking about it. But you cannot be sure of their intent or the content of their conversations; m4x himself said "tivoization" in the context of "the team" changing their minds on some issues.

I can be sure they weren't going to tivo'ize SX OS, because there is zero up-side for them and only downside. It sounds more like someone not having a clue what it actually means.

To be clear with tivoisation they would have released the source to all the graphic/sound/input code and we would be able to compile that and run it on hekate/atmosphere, but you wouldn't be able to compile it and run it on SX OS even if you used the exact same source code.

Maybe m4x's entrapment threw in some misinformation for good measure? Who knows.

 

[Jonna]

40+ pages (more because there were A LOT of deleted posts) and we still have no full proof?


I don't have any opinion for or against SX OS or free solutions, but where's the proof of everything that no one can debate over? Proof of the ACTUAL communication of this claim?


1. Yes, we have no right to demand it. But if some one is going to make a claim, they need to provide concrete proof of it. If they can't, why post?

2. Parts of chat saying the communication will be happening isn't proof.

3. Text isn't proof.

 

[LibretroRetroArc]

1. Yes, we have no right to demand it. But if some one is going to make a claim, they need to provide concrete proof of it. If they can't, why post?

I don't see the point of m4xw further engaging in this thread. The people he is responding to are not honest brokers to begin with. They just want to grasp at straws to try to drag m4xw's motivations and character into question. Anything you give these people at this point is just giving them further ammunition, and it's just basic whatabout-ism and amateur show debate steering.

I'd advise him to simply stop responding and let people form their own opinions.

It's a joke of a scene at any rate. Exploits that should be open and free, are packaged and pushed as 'product' by a bunch of middle aged dodgy salesmen hiding away in far-away places. You might as well stick with your official console or just use the homebrew offerings for all the additional 'liberties' these devices grant you. In terms of 'recruitment' or some people joining their ranks to do 'contracts' for them - I'd advise any current or future homebrew developers to stay far, far away from these entities if you don't want to get entrapped in scenarios that people in the 360/PS3 scene faced - the paltry $6K they might have to offer you is really not worth all the troubles you can read about. It is very, very likely that at the end of the day, when shit goes down, everybody rats on each other to save their own skin, and you get hung out to dry at the end. These people might have the money and resources to get themselves out of dodge everytime, but the people they recruit to do these engineering jobs certainly don't have the same cards to play. Don't let that happen to yourself. Make smart, educated choices in your life.

I'd advise moderators to just lock down this shitshow of a thread at this point. In the end, in this scene it's ultimately the content creators that matter, not some dodgy DRM-pushing sellers of dongles.

 

[Jonna]

I don't see the point of m4xw further engaging in this thread. The people he is responding to are not honest brokers to begin with. They just want to grasp at straws to try to drag m4xw's motivations and character into question. Anything you give these people at this point is just giving them further ammunition, and it's just basic whatabout-ism and amateur show debate steering.

I'd advise him to simply stop responding and let people form their own opinions.

It's a joke of a scene at any rate. Exploits that should be open and free, are packaged and pushed as 'product' by a bunch of middle aged dodgy salesmen. You might as well stick with your official console or just use the homebrew offerings for all the additional 'liberties' these devices grant you. In terms of 'recruitment' or some people joining their ranks to do 'contracts' for them - I'd advise any future homebrew developers to stay far, far away from these entities if you don't want to get entrapped in scenarios that people in the 360/PS3 scene faced - the paltry $6K they might have to offer you is really not worth all the troubles you can read about. It is very, very likely that at the end of the day, when shit goes down, everybody rats on each other to save their own skin, and you get hung out to dry at the end. These people might have the money and resources to get themselves out of dodge everytime, but the people they recruit to do these engineering jobs certainly don't have the same cards to play. Don't let that happen to yourself. Make smart, educated career choices.

I'd advise moderators to just lock down this shitshow of a thread at this point. In the end, in this scene it's ultimately the content creators that matter, not some dodgy DRM-pushing sellers of dongles.

Agreed. It isn't even up to m4xw to have to defend or say anything - only if proof provided is against him. At this point, it reaches all the way back to the original allegation - the libretro Twitter account should be showing full evidence if they're making an allegation. You can't just suddenly communicate to the CEO of McDonalds and say "YOU GUYS MADE A DEAL WITH COLE'S TO ONLY PUT THEIR READING MATERIAL IN KIDS PAKS" without any sort of evidence to back it up.


Well, technically you can. But it wouldn't go anywhere at all.

Also, look at the recent controversy with Channel Awesome and the content creators on there. A whole bunch of chat logs and other things thrown back and forth between them and the CEO, but nothing came of it ultimately and the YouTube channel and website are still running fine, apparently.

 

[guitarheroknight]

There are way too many indications "pointing" to m4xw sincerely considering working with TX. And don't get me wrong, I don't really give a shit about that. The guy seems shady, maybe equally shady as TX. But him telling the scene to fuck off and that we/they are a bunch of shitbrats is saying exactly what kind of type of person he really is. I was trying from the start to stay as neutral as possible but with every passing post he and the community make/uncover, a piece of his mask falls off hence making myself leaning towards the idea that he was sincerely going to team up with TX to make a buck or two. The thing that bothers me is that even if the whole chat logs come to the light of the day he would still deny everything.

Personally my theory is that the RA team pointed the fingers first knowing that the chat logs were out as a way of damage control. But that's just my take on all of this.

 

[m_babble]

Still enjoying my free games here.

 

[sj33]

m4xw is a coder by trade, that's literally what he does for a living. Offer a reasonable price and it gets coded. That was never the issue.

The issue is what TX were wanting. Unprepared to allow time to reimplement the code to avoid violating libretro licences, being quite explicit that they don't care about licence violations. They basically wanted m4xw to stab libretro in the back by using their code in violation of the licence. He didn't. If they wanted him to code an emulator from scratch, or at least reimplement it in a way that avoided the licence violations, then there would be no controversy around taking the job. But TX didn't want that, they just wanted it done quickly using existing code.

 

[smf]

The issue is what TX were wanting. Unprepared to allow time to implement the code to avoid violating libretro licences, being quite explicit that they don't care about licence violations.

Right, the producers of a piracy product don't care about license violations. RA don't seem to care about license violations either, launching personal attacks and misinformation every time someone brings it up.The people attacking TX have a personal vendetta and went out of their way to drag up dirt.

The horse you're flogging has been cremated and it's ashes scattered at sea.

 

[Jonna]

There are way too many indications "pointing" to m4xw sincerely considering working with TX. And don't get me wrong, I don't really give a shit about that. The guy seems shady, maybe equally shady as TX. But him telling the scene to fuck off and that we/they are a bunch of shitbrats is saying exactly what kind of type of person he really is. I was trying from the start to stay as neutral as possible but with every passing post he and the community make/uncover, a piece of his mask falls off hence making myself leaning towards the idea that he was sincerely going to team up with TX to make a buck or two. The thing that bothers me is that even if the whole chat logs come to the light of the day he would still deny everything.

Personally my theory is that the RA team pointed the fingers first knowing that the chat logs were out as a way of damage control. But that's just my take on all of this.

Put yourself in his place and see if you don't react in a similar manner. Every last aspect of it. Like you have a friend that you've poured so much effort into in advice, helping them out, lending them money, and when you do one thing wrong, they chastise you, telling you you're wrong and they'll never trust you and you're lying.

Then multiply that by at least 100 people.

It's not difficult to understand that reaction.

 

[WiikeyHacker]

what these guys are doing is illegal too yet Nintendo haven't got em yet

 

[LibretroRetroArc]

EDIT: I will cut a certain guy who knows who he is and what he is about some slack by removing this, my LAST final courtesy from me to him. The only precondition is that these coordinated attacks against m4xw cease to exist from now on, and that they let this thread gracefully die like it should. Don't honor that basic agreement, and I have no problem putting it all back up for people to see. Your call.

 

[wormdood]

i find it funny 99% of you claim tx is shit because they steal opensource code while giving no credit . . . but in this instance they wanted to pay for it . . . and you all cry just the same

 

[JoeBloggs777]

There are way too many indications "pointing" to m4xw sincerely considering working with TX. And don't get me wrong, I don't really give a shit about that. The guy seems shady, maybe equally shady as TX. But him telling the scene to fuck off and that we/they are a bunch of shitbrats is saying exactly what kind of type of person he really is. I was trying from the start to stay as neutral as possible but with every passing post he and the community make/uncover, a piece of his mask falls off hence making myself leaning towards the idea that he was sincerely going to team up with TX to make a buck or two. The thing that bothers me is that even if the whole chat logs come to the light of the day he would still deny everything.

Personally my theory is that the RA team pointed the fingers first knowing that the chat logs were out as a way of damage control. But that's just my take on all of this.

I think your right, this was more than justing seeing how far TX would go.