[POLL] U.S. Presidential Election 2016

[Saiyan Lusitano]

It has become a symbol for the alt right, and she's not on an all-out war against the meme.

 

[Lacius]

Pepe is an apolitical meme that’s been used by everyone from gamers and YouTubers to celebrities and progressive bloggers, tut no single group or ideology has ownership of the meme.

I didn't claim that anyone had ownership of the meme. This is irrelevant.

And its lifespan before this does matter because it gives it context.

You missed my reference to the history of the Swastika.

For what it is worth, there is no central Alt Right group that maintains opinions on topics, rather it is a loosely grouped associations of people on the internet. Basically it's structure is like Anonymous.

This isn't relevant when we've got people who are self-identified as alt-right consistently using the meme as a symbol.

Excuse me while I shoot your entire argument down with a volley of torpedoes because I'm a linguist and I know exactly what a symbol is.

Ignoring your argument from authority fallacy for a moment, I also have a degree in linguistics, and after having read the rest of your post, you might want to get your money back, because you clearly don't know what a symbol is. If I recall, you also consistently take a prescriptivist approach to language that no self-respecting linguist would.

In order for something to classify as a symbol, it has to be recognised by an entirety of a given group, the group has to identify with it and it has to carry intrinsic meaning. The bald eagle is a symbol for Americans - it symbolises freedom - it soars through the air unrestricted, strength - it's a predator etc. The cross is a symbol for Christians - it symbolises Jesus' sacrifice, it's a symbol of absolution.

If you had taken an intro linguistics class, you would know that a symbol is any concept that represents any other concept. A letter in the alphabet is a symbol. A picture of a man on a restroom is a symbol. A traffic sign uses symbols. My avatar is a symbol for Lacius as well as a symbol for Link from The Legend of Zelda. A club I sponsor at the school I work at uses an internet meme as a symbol for that club.

Your classification is complete garbage made up on the spot to make a poorly-conceived point. Not only are you wrong about both the words symbol and intrinsic (if you knew the meaning of the word, you would know that words and symbols often have no intrinsic meaning), but you're also committing egregious intellectual dishonesty by explicitly stating with authority something about a topic that is completely untrue. My recommendation for saving face in this situation is to either concede and move on, or you can crawl in a hole, because there's no coming back from this. Some torpedo.

When a person I'm talking to has decided that the rules for discourse don't include "not making stuff up" anymore, then it makes me not want to play. I could play by those rules too, but then what would the point be?

Pepe the frog symbolises jack shit - it's being used because it looks funny. A symbol works very much like a sign - there's the signifier, the physical representation, and the signified, a mental idea. Pepe does not qualify as a symbol in any shape or form - it's a stupid picture. A mascot would be more appropriate, and even that is a stretch.

The moment pepe is consistently being used to mean something specific by a group of people with similar points of view, regardless of how organized that group is or how much of an umbrella term it is, it meets the real classification for symbol status. That doesn't mean this is a permanent meaning or that it can't mean something else.

Edit: Members of the alt right are literally taking pepe and consistently, on a popular scale, mass-producing self-described symbols for hate. I don't know how this is even an argument. It has gotten to the point that pepe alone, without added baggage, can and has been used by these people as symbols for hate, avatars, etc.

 

[Foxi4]

*Snip*

You are confusing a variety of different types of symbols - you can't equate a numeral or a letter with a religious or political symbol, but that's a matter of semiotics. The "meaning" of Pepe is in no way fixed because there is none. It doesn't refer to any concept whatsoever either. It was appropriated as a commonly used image macro, which doesn't mean that it represents the group that uses it - that's a logical leap, or as you'd put it an "association fallacy", if you will. It's a recurring character, however it doesn't carry any meaning *in and out of itself*, nor does it refer to anything at all, which disqualifies it as a symbol, at least in my opinion.

I don't have to "save face", I'm using terms that can be understood by anyone as I don't expect random people to be familiar with these specific distinctions. That, and we're discussing the matter in context - we don't have to bother with finer details. For Pepe to be a symbol of the alt right, it would have to have the same qualities as the bald eagle has for Americans, which it doesn't. Your attempt at a counterargument comes across as a "gotcha" rather than an actual counter. Do note that I only mentioned that I studied linguistics specifically because you told me that I don't know what a symbol is - if I wanted to appeal to authority, that would've been my opener.

By the way, you are correct in saying that symbols have no *logical* meaning, they do have a mental association though - they necessarily have to refer to *something* in order to be symbols, otherwise they're just scribblings or pictures. For instance, in a web browser, a symbol of a house denotes a Home page - every user knows that, it's agreed upon and understood within the group. There is no particular reason why that's the case, but we associate a house with "home", so that's the symbol that was chosen. That kind of connection is something I cannot see in the case of Pepe. To put it bluntly, there are numerous Pepes out there, and the alt right ones are only some of many, and they're not even the rarest of Pepes.

 

[RevPokemon]

I didn't claim that anyone had ownership of the meme. This is irrelevant.

Pepe is an apolitical meme that’s been used by everyone from gamers and YouTubers to celebrities and progressive bloggers -That is what I was trying to get across.

You missed my reference to the history of the Swastika.

I do know about its prior usage in a religious context of Hinduism and Jainism (IIRC) but when it changed to be associated with Nazism, the people mostly were not aware of that unlike Pepe.

This isn't relevant when we've got people who are self-identified as alt-right consistently using the meme as a symbol.

It is relevant when we are acting as if they are a single organized structure such as the media has to a large point. My point stands is that like Anonymous, they are decentralized with no true leadership

It has gotten to the point that pepe alone, without added baggage, can and has been used by these people as symbols for hate, avatars, etc.

So you think that a plain Pepe without anything racist (i.e text that is offensive) is enough to be considered as a symbol for hate nowadays even keeping in mind its well know previous history?

 

[Foxi4]

So you think that a plain Pepe without anything racist (i.e text that is offensive) is enough to be considered as a symbol for hate nowadays even keeping in mind its well know previous history?

This is where the whole theory crumbles, I'm afraid. The whole point of the Pepe meme is the idea that there are "many Pepes" and everyone is on a scavenger hunt to find the "rarest one". As such, "alt right Pepes" are just one of many in a constant stream of image macros that have only one thing in common - the frog. It's not a symbol of anything, but we could spend all day arguing that back and forth to no effect.

 

[Lacius]

Before responding to you guys, I should note that I don't think you should talk about memes until you have a proper understanding of what they are and the history behind the word. A meme, like a gene, can self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures. What pepe was a year ago isn't necessarily what pepe will be a year from now. With the pervasiveness of the alt right, the media spotlight on pepe and the alt right, etc., the pepe meme may become so toxic in the future that its only meaning is an alt right meaning, similar to a Swastika. Or it could be that the alt right usage of the meme fizzles out in another four or five months. Regardless, to argue that the alt right isn't using it as a symbol, regardless of how it's still being used by others and how it has been used in the past, is to ignore facts.

To be honest, I think a lot of you need to grow up and get over this emotional appeal to how you think memes should be treated, regardless of who is using them and how pervasive that use is. You sound like a bunch of prescriptivists, genwunners, etc.

You are confusing a variety of different types of symbols - you can't equate a numeral or a letter with a religious or political symbol, but that's a matter of semiotics.

Given the shitpost above, please do not say I'm the one confused about symbols. I can equate these things when I'm defining what a symbol is and giving examples. Typically, when one defines something to someone who doesn't know what the term means, one tries to use varied examples to better explain how the term is used. A prototypical example, while good at first, isn't going to help that person very much in the real world. So, I'm not sure why this matters.

The "meaning" of Pepe is in no way fixed because there is none.

A symbol, like a word, often has no intrinsic meaning. All one can do is report how it's being used, which is what I'm doing. As a side note, based on this and your above post, I don't think you should have a degree in linguistics.

It was appropriated as a commonly used image macro, which doesn't mean that it represents the group that uses it - that's a logical leap, or as you'd put it an "association fallacy", if you will. It's a recurring character, however it doesn't carry any meaning *in and out of itself*, nor does it refer to anything at all, which disqualifies it as a symbol.

You need to look up what an association fallacy is, because I'm not asserting anything about the inherent meaning of the meme (for multiple reasons), as I've stated numerous times. I'm acknowledging the use of pepe as a symbol for the alt right. If you don't understand the difference now, and you're going to make silly arguments about a meaning *in and out of itself,* there's not much more I can say on the topic.

EDIT: By the way, you are correct in saying that symbols have no *logical* meaning, they do have a mental association though. For instance, in a web browser, a symbol of a house denotes a Home page - every user knows that, it's agreed upon.

Let me try to put this in a way you will understand. The home symbol as a way to beam the word "home" into your brain is one of the examples of a symbol with an intrinsic meaning because it is made to look like a literal house. This is similar to how the only words with somewhat intrinsic meanings are onomatopoeias. Don't confuse that with one of the many symbols that does not have an intrinsic meaning.

That I cannot see here.

See above. Your linguistics degree you're holding might be blocking your vision.

To put it bluntly, there are numerous Pepes out there, and the alt right ones are some of many, and they're not even the rarest of Pepes.

The meme's varied usage doesn't make it any less a symbol the alt right has adopted.

Pepe is an apolitical meme that’s been used by everyone from gamers and YouTubers to celebrities and progressive bloggers -That is what I was trying to get across.

That's irrelevant to whether or not the alt right has adopted it as a symbol.

I do know about its prior usage in a religious context of Hinduism and Jainism (IIRC) but when it changed to be associated with Nazism, the people mostly were not aware of that unlike Pepe.

It still demonstrates that a symbol's past meaning is irrelevant to its present or future meaning(s), regardless of how many people know about its meaning. If anything, one could argue that the Clinton people and the general public are analogous to the people who didn't know about the history of the Swastika back in the day. That doesn't make the Swastika nor pepe any less of a symbol as previously described.

It is relevant when we are acting as if they are a single organized structure such as the media has to a large point. My point stands is that like Anonymous, they are decentralized with no true leadership

Nobody's acting like it's a single organized structure. I've heard it acknowledged numerous times in Clinton's speech, the media, etc. that they're not. It's also, once again, irrelevant.

So you think that a plain Pepe without anything racist (i.e text that is offensive) is enough to be considered as a symbol for hate nowadays even keeping in mind its well know previous history?

With the proper context, yes. A normal pepe posted on Facebook with no alt-right context? No. A normal pepe avatar on a neo Nazi page and/or by a neo Nazi? Yes. That's what it's become, and that was the explicit purpose of some in the self-described alt-right group. In the future, a normal pepe posted on Facebook with no alt-right context might be enough to be considered a symbol of hate. See the top of my post.

This is where the whole theory crumbles, I'm afraid. The whole point of the Pepe meme is the idea that there are "many Pepes" and everyone is on a scavenger hunt to find the "rarest one". As such, "alt right Pepes" are just one of many in a constant stream of image macros that have only one thing in common - the frog. It's not a symbol of anything, but we could spend all day arguing that back and forth to no effect.

See above. Your theory crumbles when you realize that a group can adopt anything as a symbol, regardless of whether or not a meme is still being used in alternative ways. Your theory also crumbles when you realize how pervasive, intentional, and concerted an effort this is.

 

[The Cringe]

Are you high?

Lacius be like...

 

[Lacius]

Lacius be like...

If only.

 

[vayanui8]

When you saw this image did it make you think of white supremacy? No? Thats probably because Pepe is not a white supremacist symbol.

 

[Engert]

Is Pepe making fun of French people?

 

[Lacius]

When you saw this image did it make you think of white supremacy? No? Thats probably because Pepe is not a white supremacist symbol.

First, see my post about context. Second, it would be a lie to say it didn't make anyone think of white supremacy given the conversation topic and why you posted it.

Edit: The unfortunate side effect of this conversation is that all our brains likely now go to white supremacy when we see this meme, even if it's a fleeting thought.

 

[Saiyan Lusitano]

I'm not afraid of Pepe the Frog but I'd be afraid of Pepe the Footballer. This guy is known to lose his sh!t.

 

[Foxi4]

The reason why we don't have to discuss the intricate details of symbolism is because the discussion is suspended in context. I specifically don't want this to devolve into an exchange of gotcha-style arguments because correcting technicalities doesn't make either stance any more or less right - it's merely meandering.

"My degree" isn't blinding me in any way, but your persistence in ignoring the whole point of the meme might be blinding you. As I've stated before, the whole point of the Pepe meme is that it's applicable to anything and, in a sense, collectible. The alt right makes alt right Pepes, depressed people make depressed Pepes etc. - Pepe itself, by design, bears no connotations - you dress him up in them, it works this way by design. As such, it's not "owned" by anyone and it never will be - it's not an alt right symbol any more than t-shirts are. You can print an alt right message on a t-shirt and you'll get an alt right t-shirt, which doesn't make all the-shirts alt right. Similarly, you can make an alt right Pepe, even en masse, it's still merely one of many - that's the whole point.

Besides, you seem to be missing the bigger picture. This isn't about Pepe, or memes, or even the alt right - it's about wasting time creating clickbait articles to gin up votes instead of spending it on addressing actual pressing issues, which is what a candidate should be doing.

 

[Viri]

In ancient Rome, when they believed in the Roman gods, the Roman Emperor declared war on the sea.

In current days, Hillary declares war on a cartoon frog.

 

[Saiyan Lusitano]

View attachment 62726
When you saw this image did it make you think of white supremacy? No? Thats probably because Pepe is not a white supremacist symbol.

That poor frog looks depressed. #FrogLivesMatter

 

[Lacius]

The reason why we don't have to discuss the intricate details of symbolism is because the discussion is suspended in context. I specifically don't want this to devolve into an exchange of gotcha-style arguments because correcting technicalities doesn't make either stance any more or less right - it's merely meandering.

"My degree" isn't blinding me in any way, but your persistence in ignoring the whole point of the meme might be blinding you. As I've stated before, the whole point of the Pepe meme is that it's applicable to anything and, in a sense, collectible. The alt right makes alt right Pepes, depressed people make depressed Pepes etc. - Pepe itself, by design, bears no connotations - you dress him up in them, it works this way by design. As such, it's not "owned" by anyone and it never will be - it's not an alt right symbol any more than t-shirts are. You can print an alt right message on a t-shirt and you'll get an alt right t-shirt, which doesn't make all the-shirts alt right. Similarly, you can make an alt right Pepe, even en masse, but it's still merely one of many.

If you think anything I've said is mutually exclusive with this or that I even disagree with this, then you have ignored everything I've posted.

The alt right is intentionally using pepe as a symbol for hate. Get over it.

Besides, you seem to be missing the bigger picture. This isn't about Pepe, or memes, or even the alt right - it's about wasting time creating clickbait articles to gin up votes instead of spending it on addressing actual pressing issues, which is what a candidate should be doing.

No, it's about the alt right. That's pretty much the whole issue.

In current days, Hillary declares war on a cartoon frog.

Ignoring that this would be preferable to some of the actual wars she might declare (Don't be mad at me, Hill. It's all good), I wouldn't say that she's declared war on a cartoon frog.

 

[Foxi4]

The unfortunate side effect of this conversation is that all our brains likely now go to white supremacy when we see this meme, even if it's a fleeting thought.

If someone's perception of "Vanilla Pepe" has suddenly changed from "random nonsense" to "white supremacy" due to this discussion, I will eat a bucket of Pepes, rare.

If this is about the alt-right, write about the alt-right. Don't write about Pepe, it's a waste of everybody's time. Unfortunately, one cannot write about the alt-right since it's not an organised movement, it has no common ideology and no representatives - they're perfect bogeymen.

The funny thing is that I'm willing to wager that a lot of people involved in this discussion right now actually identify as "alt right", if we define "alt right" as "alternative right-wing", meaning non-GOP. Not to look too far for examples, libertarians are a right-wing alternative to republicans. Naturally that's not the accepted definition since logic went out the window during this election.

 

[RevPokemon]

The alt right is intentionally using pepe as a symbol for hate. Get over it.

The whole argument is not about whether they are using pepe (we all agree on that) but it is about whether or not the qualifies him as a symbol of the alt right.

The unfortunate side effect of this conversation is that all our brains likely now go to white supremacy when we see this meme, even if it's a fleeting thought.

Without context, probably not unless this is your only experience with pepe or if you just think about odd experiences alot.

 

[Viri]

Ignoring that this would be preferable to some of the actual wars she might declare (Don't be mad at me, Hill. It's all good), I wouldn't say that she's declared war on a cartoon frog.

I hope you're gathering the Tadpole corpses for madam's war trophies, or she might fire you from CTR.

 

[Lacius]

If someone's perception of "Vanilla Pepe" has suddenly changed from "random nonsense" to "white supremacy", I will eat a bucket of Pepes.

First, whether or not you define pepe by its alt-right usage, which you obviously don't, that connotation likely comes to mind when you see it now; that was my point there.

Second, I just did a silly subjective study where I invited one white 26 year-old male to look at my computer screen and tell me what he sees. He's a casual internet user who is closer to the general public than a Temper and/or meme-user, and the picture was normal pepe. He said, "Oh, that's that frog thing that's racist, right?" He was unlikely ever aware of the "random nonsense" connotation, but my point here is clear.

The whole argument is not about whether they are using pepe (we all agree on that) but it is about whether or not the qualifies him as a symbol of the alt right.

Considering the former equals the latter, that is the whole argument.

Without context, probably not unless this is your only experience with pepe or if you just think about odd experiences alot.

It doesn't take much for something like that. Let's say much of the general public later sees pepe as racist. If enough people feel that way, there could be a level of shame on its usage, for example, that will cause even avid meme-users to avoid its usage, even if they generally see it as having a nonsense connotation. After enough time, well, you can imagine the rest of the story.