Hacking N64 Emu?

[The Real Jdbye]

This probably won't happen. Even the 3DS doesn't have enough power to run N64 games fullspeed, not with homebrew anyway. Nintendo might be able to make a fullspeed emulator since they have a large team, infinite money (for that purpose anyway, it's not like it would ever cost them a large part of their money), and know all the specifications required.

However, the DSTWO being 400mhz compared to the PSP's 2x333 mhz (and the losses in power due to having to synchronize the 2 cores, which the Daedalusx64 team said was about a 30% loss at best, if it was fully optimized) means the PSP is technically only slightly more powerful for N64 emulation, so the DSTWO could potentially run N64 games almost as well, but even Daedalusx64 doesn't run N64 games terribly well, most games run at around half of normal speed (unless they have made huge improvements since last I tried it, but I don't think there is much more they can do to improve speed)

I doubt anyone will spend that much effort on porting or coding an emulator knowing that it will never run anything at full speed though, but some may consider 30 FPS to be fully playable. I don't though, as it ruins the audio and that is a big part of any game to me. But audio might not be implemented in an emulator anyway if one was ported.

However, the most important factor to consider is that there are far less DSTWO owners than PSP owners (and far less developer interest), which makes this very unlikely to happen. There is only a handful of DSTWO homebrew compared to the huge pile of PSP homebrew, and it takes someone highly skilled (and highly knowledgeable in how the CPU architectures work) to optimize an emulator to the level that it can actually run games at a reasonable speed.

The PSP is much more powerful than the DS.

It doesn't matter if a flash cart runs on the DSi or 3DS, they only have access to the power of the original 2004-model DS.

The iEvo is an exception, but it's only double the DS's power (which is still crappy), and it hasn't been updated in ages (and didn't work in DSi-mode on the 3DS anyways).

It worked in DSi-mode on the 3DS. There was just no way to switch it to DSi-mode since it didn't work in DS-mode. If they hadn't abandoned it, it could still be working in DSi-mode on the 3DS, so it's a sad thing that they did.

The DSTWO could potentially run N64 games almost as well as the PSP (read above), but even the PSP doesn't run them that well. And as there are far less DSTWO owners than PSP owners (and far less developer interest), this is very unlikely to happen.

 

[kilikman]

Hello I was just wondering if an N64 emu was possible with the dstwo.
Thanks!

No. Not at all. The DSTwo runs in DS mode even on a 3DS which only has the same access rights as a normal DS, meaning that it wont be able to run a N64 emulator due to the sheer lack of power, even if it did you'd have a choppy frame-rate and it wouldn't be an enjoyable experience. I'd advise deleting this thread as you're only going to get harsh responses.

Kilikman out.

 

[Rydian]

This probably won't happen. Even the 3DS doesn't have enough power to run N64 games fullspeed, not with homebrew anyway. Nintendo might be able to make a fullspeed emulator since they have a large team, infinite money (for that purpose anyway, it's not like it would ever cost them a large part of their money), and know all the specifications required.

Well with HLE and per-game tricks, getting the games playable shouldn't be a problem on the 3DS.

The thing is that most emulators are doing their best to move away from HLE and go to LLE, and this really ramps up the requirements. Consider the requirements of ZSNES (which takes an HLE approach to graphics) to BSNES's accuracy/x64 version (which is pixel-perfect). ZSNES ran on my Windows 98 machine, while BSNES recommends a Core 2 and above to be playable...

I suppose Corn for PC would be a good example. One of the first N64 emulators, and was done as an example to show that HLE can really get a lot of speed on weak specs by sacrificing compatibility/accuracy...

But HLE things usually need fixes and updates to be programmed per-game, while the modern LLE mindset means that updates are done to the state of emulation itself and game compatibility happens to be an end result of it... so most emulator authors ditched the HLE mindset years ago, except in cases where LLE Just Won't Work™ (usually would need requirements beyond what modern machines can do at all). On this note, emulators for newer systems tend to do HLE stuff until the LLE stuff will actually run on a user's system properly.

Anyways per-game emulator bundles don't need to worry about game compatibility from a single binary and Nintendo does have the resources to do per-game tweaks, so it's not unfeasible. Unlikely maybe, but possible.

but even Daedalusx64 doesn't run N64 games terribly well, most games run at around half of normal speed (unless they have made huge improvements since last I tried it, but I don't think there is much more they can do to improve speed)

Something like Super Mario 64 can run at 80-100% speed with the right settings, but yeah I still consider the PSP port a proof of concept.

I doubt anyone will spend that much effort on porting or coding an emulator knowing that it will never run anything at full speed though, but some may consider 30 FPS to be fully playable.

Ocarina Of Time runs at 24FPS.

It worked in DSi-mode on the 3DS. There was just no way to switch it to DSi-mode since it didn't work in DS-mode. If they hadn't abandoned it, it could still be working in DSi-mode on the 3DS, so it's a sad thing that they did.

Ah, thought it was the other way around (DS-mode, no way to go into DSi-mode).

 

[Deltaechoe]

I doubt anyone will spend that much effort on porting or coding an emulator knowing that it will never run anything at full speed though, but some may consider 30 FPS to be fully playable. I don't though, as it ruins the audio and that is a big part of any game to me. But audio might not be implemented in an emulator anyway if one was ported.

Actually, many console games are capped right around 30 frames per second. This is generally done to allow for higher quality textures, models, draw distances, ect on a system with less power than the average gaming PC

 

[thealeks]

7

More MHz =/= more power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHz_myth
http://www.osnews.com/story/3997
http://www.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gray/graphics/movies/mhz_myth_320f.mov


Emulation doesn't work that way, never has, never will. MHz is only part of the puzzle, you still have to convert Ricoh 5A22 ASM architecture into ARM9/ARM7 code in order for the DS ARM processor to understand the Snes 65c816 ASM code. Just because a system is 50-100 times more in MHz than a console doesn't mean it will run full speed. I really wish people would actually take the time to understand how emulation is to be achieved. A DS does not run native 5A22 code, the DS ARM7/9 CPUs mus be "tricked" into thinking it's a 5A22 CPU. That's where coding and reverse-engineering comes into play, if you don't know anything about how it works, don't make such assumptions. More MHz doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't take into account all aspects of hardware and how it's coded in order to trick one thing into thinking it's something else.

Optimizations must be made, the Sony SPC700, Nintendo S-SMP, 65c816 Ricoh 5A22, PPU, bus, etc all must run in a synchronized state. Not to mention speed hacks, frame skipping, etc must be implemented if games are to run at a decent speed. As a computer science major, I think I know a thing or two about emulation and how it is to be done on inferior hardware. The DSTWO flash card has its own CPU in it, but still doesn't achieve full speed in special chip games, yet it is getting better.

ARM vs Assembly = apples to oranges.

By your logic, the DS should be able load Sega Saturn and Playstation ISO images.

Cuz i only quoted mhz
Does the ds out power the playstation 10fold? No. But it has more than enough processing power, mhz, and ram to handle it, otherwise Snemul wouldnt exist. Snemul works fine on any ds ive tried. The only issues it has are that the developer didnt refine it

 

[metroid maniac]

7

Cuz i only quoted mhz
Does the ds out power the playstation 10fold? No. But it has more than enough processing power, mhz, and ram to handle it, otherwise Snemul wouldnt exist. Snemul works fine on any ds ive tried. The only issues it has are that the developer didnt refine it

...
Did you call the Playstation a SNES?

 

[thealeks]

Appa

I know that, I was proving a point to thealeks and his all-too-flawed logic about MHz and emulation. I'm not that dense.

Apparantly yoy are. I didnt just post the mhz, i posted the processors and RAM. The ds has plenty power to run the snes emulators, but the existing emus just need some fine tuning(as is the case with nearly all homebrew)

 

[thealeks]

...
Did you call the Playstation a SNES?

No i didnt.my wording wasnt perfect. Randomizer said by my logic the ds should be able to run playstation isos and sega saturn games but i was sayin the ds outpowers the snes by so much that it can handle emulating it given that someone writes a good enough emulator. So according to randomizer, the ds outpowers the psone significantly.

 

[the_randomizer]

...
Did you call the Playstation a SNES?

The DS doesn't have the power to handle the PSX hardware. Period. MHz-wise, it's three times but that's where it ends. I don't know why he doesn't understand that there is no way in hell it could emulate such a complex console. The SPU, GPU, CPU, CD-XA Audio, 2x CD-ROM, etc would all have to be emulated by the ARM7 and ARM9 CPUs. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[demonik420]

soooo not to add fuel to the fire but... why is it totally not possible? I believe the same was thought of the psp and then BAM! outta no where Daedalus came along...
what stipulations make this impossible? not enough ram or what?

because the 3ds isnt even hacked yet obviously.. the original ds would havto have an n64 emulator for it to work oin your 3ds.. all the supercard does is put your 3ds into ds mode.. AND even when the 3ds is eventually hacked it will be similar to the psp.. yes there is an n64 emulator.. but it doesnt play ANY games properly.

 

[Tokiopop]

nintendo DS - 67mhz ARM9 and 33mhz ARM7, 4mb RAM
snes - 16bit 65c816 Ricoh 5A22 3.58mhz, 128kb RAM (additional RAM on carts)

Sounds plenty powerful to me

Please just stop posting. COMPLETELY different processor architectures is only just the beginning.

Posts like this killed GBAtemp. This site is just seen as a bunch of headless chickens looking desperately for TEH HOMEBRUZ AND ZE ROMZORZ XDDDDDD by every other community now.

 

[the_randomizer]

Please just stop posting. COMPLETELY different processor architectures is only just the beginning.

Posts like this killed GBAtemp. This site is just seen as a bunch of headless chickens looking desperately for TEH HOMEBRUZ AND ZE ROMZORZ XDDDDDD by every other community now.

Couldn't agree more, two completely different architectures, MHz doesn't mean a thing when writing emulators. I'm pretty sure he's the Valedictorian in is computer science class.

 

[thealeks]

Couldn't agree more, two completely different architectures, MHz doesn't mean a thing when writing emulators. I'm pretty sure he's the Valedictorian in is computer science class.

For the umpteenth time. I DIDNT JUST POST MHZ!!!! And you call me dense. There are perfectly functional snes emus for ds. If it was so impossible to emuate snes on the ds, there wouldnt be emus for it. The fact that there are snes emus for ds proves you wrong. Go try snemulds on your ds. HOLY CRAP YOURE PLAYING SNES ON YOUR DS! its rediculous how people can argue whether somethings possible when its already been done.

 

[thealeks]

Please just stop posting. COMPLETELY different processor architectures is only just the beginning.

Posts like this killed GBAtemp. This site is just seen as a bunch of headless chickens looking desperately for TEH HOMEBRUZ AND ZE ROMZORZ XDDDDDD by every other community now.

Youre rights its much better to have a community of doubters who will NEVER accomplish anything hacking or homebrewwise. How many hacks are you credited for?

 

[Tokiopop]

Youre rights its much better to have a community of doubters who will NEVER accomplish anything hacking or homebrewwise. How many hacks are you credited for?

Non, but I have a good understanding of the basics.

I never said everyone should be a doubter, but when people talk about stuff which they're clueless about they look stupid. This applies to everything in life. And it's a bad reflection on this site - it isn't hard to research things, or think before you click the post button.

 

[thealeks]

Non, but I have a good understanding of the basics.

I never said everyone should be a doubter, but when people talk about stuff which they're clueless about they look stupid. This applies to everything in life. And it's a bad reflection on this site - it isn't hard to research things, or think before you click the post button.

I do research and think before i post. Ive been a member here for a year and lurked anonymously for years before that. My point was that snes emulation on the ds has already been done. So you cant argue its impossible. According to your logic(and randomizer) the different architectures of the ds and snes make it impossible. So your computer and psp must have the same architecture as the snes then, as its been emulated on both systems. You cant tell me my adroid phone has the same architecture as a snes but im sure i could find an emulator for that as well. It is not my logic that is flawed, rather it is yours. I understand there is more to it than just processing power, but its still been done

 

[Tokiopop]

I do research and think before i post. Ive been a member here for a year and lurked anonymously for years before that. My point was that snes emulation on the ds has already been done. So you cant argue its impossible. According to your logic(and randomizer) the different architectures of the ds and snes make it impossible. So your computer and psp must have the same architecture as the snes then, as its been emulated on both systems. You cant tell me my adroid phone has the same architecture as a snes but im sure i could find an emulator for that as well. It is not my logic that is flawed, rather it is yours. I understand there is more to it than just processing power, but its still been done

To begin with, you were comparing the Mhz of 2 different microprocessors as reasoning for why the DS is powerful enough for SNES emulation. Yes, SNES emulation is possible on the DS. But it's nowhere near perfect. Infact it takes a very powerful processor to perfectly emulate the SNES (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/...ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/3/). The DS just doesn't have the raw power for practical SNES emulation. And I never said the architecture needs to be the same for emulation, I was just pointing out that you were comparing 2 different ones, which you can't really do. You're just putting words into my mouth.

You can't just go X product originally had an 100MHz processor, so Y product with a 400Mhz processor can surely emulate it! Take a look at Sega Saturn emulators. Whilst originally the Saturn wasn't an amazingly powerful console, it's a lot harder to emulate than say, an N64. Heck, I bet Saturn emulation is harder than PS2 emulation.

What you can do though, is compare an emulator on different products. Say you have 2 android devices, both with the same emulator installed. One is 1GHz, the other 1.5GHz. If the 1GHz device runs games at 80%, you could safely say the 1.5GHz would run the same games at 100%. (I don't actually know anything about android devices and emulation on android, I was just making up an example to show how processors COULD be compared - but even then you can't reliably compare different products though since these days most things use SOCs and will have varied GPUs, memory, etc.)

I hope you enjoy the perfect SNES emulation article though, I know I did.

 

[Rydian]

It pretty much is like that with Android, BTW. Outside of a different number of cores skewing multi-threaded benchmarks, most modern android devices use the same processor family and performance per clock rarely varies too much (improvements are generally to power consumption to allow higher clock rates, and a better GPU).

 

[Heavy01]

I'd love to play games like pokemon stadium 2 or paper mario on my 3ds.

My dream is to be able to play jet force gemini on a handheld someday, but I don't see that happening soon, as rareware games are impossible to emulate on handhelds for some reason.

 

[the_randomizer]

For the umpteenth time. I DIDNT JUST POST MHZ!!!! And you call me dense. There are perfectly functional snes emus for ds. If it was so impossible to emuate snes on the ds, there wouldnt be emus for it. The fact that there are snes emus for ds proves you wrong. Go try snemulds on your ds. HOLY CRAP YOURE PLAYING SNES ON YOUR DS! its rediculous how people can argue whether somethings possible when its already been done.

Let me know when SnesmulDS plays Mario RPG and Mega Man X2 at full speed. I never once said Snes emulation can't be done, it can, but hell will freeze over before Snes games on a DS run full speed. Good day. Whatever happened with you being "done" with this thread?

Come back when you learn microprocessor architecture and learn proper punctuation.

As was said previously, the two CPUs are so dissimilar to each other, CPU architectural coding and translating must be done; this is how emulation is achieved.