Hardware Enterking hints at 3DS log being accessable to vendors

[tbgtbg]

This would be more akin to putting in a burned DVD and the computer crashing.

It's like putting a burned CD into your car stereo and your car engine stops starting.

 

[Xuphor]

This would be more akin to putting in a burned DVD and the computer crashing.

It's like putting a burned CD into your car stereo and your car engine stops starting.

More like all forms of audio in the car will not work anymore. CD, MP3, XM, AM/FM, etc.

 

[MelodieOctavia]

there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

They don't have to advertise it as a remote brick. They can simply say that their firmware is crashing/malfunctioning because you fiddled with their device in the first place...

If you remove a cooling fan from your computer and your CPU fries, you cannot claim your warranty. You've lost it automatically by removing the seal.

Analogy fail.

You don't have to open the (3)DS(i) or remove anything.
This would be more akin to putting in a burned DVD and the computer crashing.

More like Microsoft noticing that WGA has failed on your system and sends a remote signal to fry your processor.

Microsoft doesn't make the hardware for your computer but Nintendo does make the hardware and software.

Well, I suppose another analogy would be installing a third party NOS injection system into your car, The company somehow finding out about it, and frying your ECU, thus making your car useless.

Or better yet, Microsoft, instead of banning you from Live, they come into your house through an open window and fire 12 rounds into your 360 for piracy.

 

[pachura]

Analogy fail.

OK. Let's say you want to flash your PC's BIOS and by mistake you take a BIOS file meant for a completely different motherboard. In the result, your computer becomes dead. I seriously doubt the warranty would cover this case.

You know, the official firmware updates could be incremental (delta) - e.g., in existing firmware, the process would update the third byte, the fifth byte, etc. etc. If the existing firmware is custom, then the incremental update would probably produce something completely unusable. Of course Nintendo could say that that's not their fault and they weren't intentionally bricking the device - just updating their firmware...

 

[Rydian]

OK. Let's say you want to flash your PC's BIOS and by mistake you take a BIOS file meant for a completely different motherboard. In the result, your computer becomes dead. I seriously doubt the warranty would cover this case.

Correct.

But what does that have to do with the topic? Flash carts do not make any modification to the system.

 

[MelodieOctavia]

Analogy fail.

OK. Let's say you want to flash your PC's BIOS and by mistake you take a BIOS file meant for a completely different motherboard. In the result, your computer becomes dead. I seriously doubt the warranty would cover this case.

You know, the official firmware updates could be incremental (delta) - e.g., in existing firmware, the process would update the third byte, the fifth byte, etc. etc. If the existing firmware is custom, then the incremental update would probably produce something completely unusable. Of course Nintendo could say that that's not their fault and they weren't intentionally bricking the device - just updating their firmware...

Another analogy fail. You keep rattling off analogys that all end in user error, when this clearly would not be the case. Nintendo can lie all they want, but that would only make it worse for them WHEN not IF the truth came out that they remotely bricked units. And this is besides the fact that flash carts do not make any changes to the system (Thanks rydian)

 

[AlanJohn]

If they dare brick my 3DS I'll become a Sony fanboy >

 

[jpxdude]

The warranty on the device states that if you use an unauthorized device on the 3DS and it breaks, we aren't responsible to fix it.Correct, that's what most of this boils down to. Also them not wanting you to use unauthorized (read as "we don't get a cut of the money") accessories.

You may not like it, but Nintendo has a right to protect their IP as well as the IP of their developers. If a remote brick is the way they want to do this, then they have every right to do so and legally your situation is tenuous.THIS is bullshit. Sony has a class-action lawsuit against them for the update that removed OtherOS. In addition consumer protection laws in the UK allowed people to get partial refunds (without returning the PS3) since the product no longer worked as advertised.

If an update that was not forced, needed user consent, and simply removed a feature from the system (leaving it otherwise operable) can earn a class-action lawsuit and refunds from stores there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

QUOTE(doyama @ Mar 8 2011, 12:52 PM)

Again the logic is, you ran a flash cart that executed an invalid instruction that obliterated the 3DS. So it's the flashcarts fault, not Nintendo's.

Are you kidding me? It could easily be proven that the system is bricking itself on purpose. The moment a shred of proof of that emerges Nintendo is FUCKED.

Purposely bricking will not happen.

+1

Nintendo will never intentionally brick your device. It would open up the biggest can of worms, and cost them way too much time and money.

I think it is only fair to assume that if you mess up your device using an unauthorized device somehow, or flashcard, and Nintendo see this through your logs, then consider your warranty void, you are on your own. Nintendo have, and still continue to WARN about this with the Wii, but it is common sense. If you are using unauthorized software or devices to tamper with the underlying software, then you lose your support from Nintendo if caught and your device messes up.

I think the message has been misinterpreted by the media, and now glamorized for extra attention and website hits.

 

[how_do_i_do_that]

All you really have to do is pull the wiifi module from your own country 3DS if they can remote brick a Japanese 3DS.

Currently pulling the wifi module from a Japanese 3DS only gives an error message, the 3DS is still functional even without it.



As for "Nintendo will never intentionally brick your device", is sooooooo full of shit, they already do that with the wii. They intentionally made it look like a 3rd party device can brick a wii. For example a wiikey fusion with firmware 1.0 is detectable by the wii OS 4.2 and 4.3. The behaviour of the wii system exhibits random system freezes and halts on any attempt to run any channels until the modchip is removed.

The most likely situation is that any new system update to the 3DS will likely cause the 3DS to halt if it CAN detect a flashcart of any kind that is currently plugged in. This gives them the ability to put out fake statements that flashcarts DO brick 3DSes.

 

[Rydian]

As for "Nintendo will never intentionally brick your device", is sooooooo full of shit, they already do that with the wii. They intentionally made it look like a 3rd party device can brick a wii. For example a wiikey fusion with firmware 1.0 is detectable by the wii OS 4.2 and 4.3. The behaviour of the wii system exhibits random system freezes and halts on any attempt to run any channels until the modchip is removed.

That's not what a brick is, dude. :\
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Brick

Nintendo has never bricked the wii on purpose. There were two "bricking" instances, and neither was on purpose (in fact with one of them unmodded wiis were bricked as well and had to be sent in for repair). All of the bricking instances that had to do with modding dealt with firmware files being modified. This is not the case with the 3/DS/i, where the on-board firmware is never modified.

 

[how_do_i_do_that]

To an unaware user a fake brick and a real brick are the same. Your talking to a bunch of people here who are suppose to know what a fake brick and real brick looks like.

Have some sense as to what the purpose of a fake bricking is for, to spread FUD and to pupetuate a myth that flashcarts and modchips are bad. Your not even aware of the psychological protection a fake bricking brings.

 

[Rydian]

To an unaware user a fake brick and a real brick are the same. Your talking to a bunch of people here who are suppose to know what a fake brick and real brick looks like.

I'm pretty sure that gbatemp users can tell the difference between the symptoms you listed, and a wii not starting up at all.

 

[doyama]

The warranty on the device states that if you use an unauthorized device on the 3DS and it breaks, we aren't responsible to fix it.Correct, that's what most of this boils down to. Also them not wanting you to use unauthorized (read as "we don't get a cut of the money") accessories.

You may not like it, but Nintendo has a right to protect their IP as well as the IP of their developers. If a remote brick is the way they want to do this, then they have every right to do so and legally your situation is tenuous.THIS is bullshit. Sony has a class-action lawsuit against them for the update that removed OtherOS. In addition consumer protection laws in the UK allowed people to get partial refunds (without returning the PS3) since the product no longer worked as advertised.

If an update that was not forced, needed user consent, and simply removed a feature from the system (leaving it otherwise operable) can earn a class-action lawsuit and refunds from stores there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

QUOTE(doyama @ Mar 8 2011, 12:52 PM)

Again the logic is, you ran a flash cart that executed an invalid instruction that obliterated the 3DS. So it's the flashcarts fault, not Nintendo's.

Are you kidding me? It could easily be proven that the system is bricking itself on purpose. The moment a shred of proof of that emerges Nintendo is FUCKED.

Purposely bricking will not happen.

Let me address a few points:

Firstly in the scenario I imagine, the firmware install would be fine. It would be force or whatever but would not actually do anything during the installation to detect a flashcart. It would not make any determination during the install. You can even boot into the firmware with the flashcart installed and nothing would actually happen. The brick would trigger only when you actually select the game and launch it.

The lawsuit over the OtherOS portion is because consumer law in the EU (not in any other region) does not allow the removal of advertised features. This situation is different. If you code something so that a flashcart basically bricks a 3DS, that is not in violation of that law. Again you would have very little recourse since the warranty explicity dies once you run the flashcart. Whatever happens is between you and the flashcart manufacturer. The bricking does not invalidate the fact you voided the warranty the moment you put in and executed the flashcart. If a third party unauthorized application blows away your 3DS that's not Nintendo's fault even if they put that functionality into the device.

If you put a killswitch code into the 3DS that's not illegal in any way. A killswitch code in the device, is no different than debug code or whatever. They are allowed to put that in if they want. If your flashcart executes the killswitch that's not Nintendo's fault. We have code in there that no 'regular' use can ever execute. That doesn't make the code illegal, or the execution of that code illegal. If the flashcart triggers the code, that's your fault and yours alone. Killswitches are commonly used today. The Kindle has one when it recalled a book it published awhile back. The Android just rencently sent out a killswitch for some malware. Yes these killswitches only disable content, but from the law's perspective its legal even if it totally disables the device. Once you void the warranty your recourses are pretty limited.

Now I'm not saying Nintendo would actually do this. The negative publicity would be pretty hard. The lawsuits would come, though Nintendo would probably win those if they really wanted to follow through with them. If they did they'd probably just settle. As I also said, the financial aspects could be negative from a support standpoint. They might weight the cost of support, the negative publicity, and the lawsuit settlements or going through with them, and decide it's not worth it. Believe me they WANT to do it. But ultimately I think the math doesn't add up to make it worthwhile.

To summarize

1) They can legally brick you console remotely if they wanted
2) It's extremely unlikely they will do so

The only place I would actually be scared of this happening is in Japan, where Nintendo has massive amounts of clout to create laws to basically make remote bricking legal. In other regions, they'd be too timid to bother.

 

[Xuphor]

Again you would have very little recourse since the warranty explicity dies once you run the flashcart. [...]the fact you voided the warranty the moment you put in and executed the flashcart.

I may be wrong here, but what part of any TOS with Nintendo DS systems says this? IIRC, the only thing the TOS mentions in the line of illegal use (thus ending warranty, which I'm guessing is what you're saying) is modifying firmware or other code of the DS itself. The flashcarts do not modify any part of any code on the DS, muchless it's firmware. If there is another part of the DS TOS that encompasses the use of flashcarts being illegal, please correct me.

 

[doyama]

Again you would have very little recourse since the warranty explicity dies once you run the flashcart. [...]the fact you voided the warranty the moment you put in and executed the flashcart.

I may be wrong here, but what part of any TOS with Nintendo DS systems says this? IIRC, the only thing the TOS mentions in the line of illegal use (thus ending warranty, which I'm guessing is what you're saying) is modifying firmware or other code of the DS itself. The flashcarts do not modify any part of any code on the DS, muchless it's firmware. If there is another part of the DS TOS that encompasses the use of flashcarts being illegal, please correct me.

http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/manuals/w...ntytext_eng.jsp

THIS WARRANTY SHALL NOT APPLY IF THIS PRODUCT: (a) IS USED WITH PRODUCTS NOT SOLD OR LICENSED BY NINTENDO (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, NON-LICENSED GAME ENHANCEMENT AND COPIER DEVICES, ADAPTERS, AND POWER SUPPLIES);

Basically if Nintendo doesn't license it, if it breaks your device you're out of luck from a warranty perspective.

 

[Xuphor]

Ah, I apologize, I wasn't aware of that one. It also means that Nyko Power+ battery pack will void your warrenty, as well as absolutely any Stylus sold by gamestop/walmart/etc. Nintendo's harsh.

 

[Ryukouki]

It doesn't necessarily have to be Nintendo, 100% Nintendo. Many third party retailers, such as MadCatz, Pelican, etc., have a Nintendo approved Third Party License.

 

[Xuphor]

This was posted in another thread, but it's VERY VERY true to this thread, and imo shows why Nintendo wouldn't be stupid enough to do this:

So, let's say I buy a 3DS on launch, play some random launch game with them on some flash cart. Some time later, I'm low on cash so I trade them in at GameStop or w/e.

Little kid buys my old 3DS. 3DS-bricking firmware comes out a month or so later. Kid's console is bricked.

Class action suit.

 

[kyomagi]

If you put a killswitch code into the 3DS that's not illegal in any way. A killswitch code in the device, is no different than debug code or whatever. They are allowed to put that in if they want. If your flashcart executes the killswitch that's not Nintendo's fault. We have code in there that no 'regular' use can ever execute. That doesn't make the code illegal, or the execution of that code illegal. If the flashcart triggers the code, that's your fault and yours alone. Killswitches are commonly used today. The Kindle has one when it recalled a book it published awhile back. The Android just rencently sent out a killswitch for some malware. Yes these killswitches only disable content, but from the law's perspective its legal even if it totally disables the device. Once you void the warranty your recourses are pretty limited.

So your telling my that nintendo will install a killswitch knowing in a system that could cause a bricking if a flash cart is used?

ILLEGAL

The law clearly states that a manufacture cannot disable hardware or software within the typical life span of a electronic device.

2 years in the Usa and 6 in the UK

 

[MelodieOctavia]

The warranty on the device states that if you use an unauthorized device on the 3DS and it breaks, we aren't responsible to fix it.Correct, that's what most of this boils down to. Also them not wanting you to use unauthorized (read as "we don't get a cut of the money") accessories.

You may not like it, but Nintendo has a right to protect their IP as well as the IP of their developers. If a remote brick is the way they want to do this, then they have every right to do so and legally your situation is tenuous.THIS is bullshit. Sony has a class-action lawsuit against them for the update that removed OtherOS. In addition consumer protection laws in the UK allowed people to get partial refunds (without returning the PS3) since the product no longer worked as advertised.

If an update that was not forced, needed user consent, and simply removed a feature from the system (leaving it otherwise operable) can earn a class-action lawsuit and refunds from stores there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

QUOTE(doyama @ Mar 8 2011, 12:52 PM)

Again the logic is, you ran a flash cart that executed an invalid instruction that obliterated the 3DS. So it's the flashcarts fault, not Nintendo's.

Are you kidding me? It could easily be proven that the system is bricking itself on purpose. The moment a shred of proof of that emerges Nintendo is FUCKED.

Purposely bricking will not happen.

Let me address a few points:

Firstly in the scenario I imagine, the firmware install would be fine. It would be force or whatever but would not actually do anything during the installation to detect a flashcart. It would not make any determination during the install. You can even boot into the firmware with the flashcart installed and nothing would actually happen. The brick would trigger only when you actually select the game and launch it.

The lawsuit over the OtherOS portion is because consumer law in the EU (not in any other region) does not allow the removal of advertised features. This situation is different. If you code something so that a flashcart basically bricks a 3DS, that is not in violation of that law. Again you would have very little recourse since the warranty explicity dies once you run the flashcart. Whatever happens is between you and the flashcart manufacturer. The bricking does not invalidate the fact you voided the warranty the moment you put in and executed the flashcart. If a third party unauthorized application blows away your 3DS that's not Nintendo's fault even if they put that functionality into the device.

If you put a killswitch code into the 3DS that's not illegal in any way. A killswitch code in the device, is no different than debug code or whatever. They are allowed to put that in if they want. If your flashcart executes the killswitch that's not Nintendo's fault. We have code in there that no 'regular' use can ever execute. That doesn't make the code illegal, or the execution of that code illegal. If the flashcart triggers the code, that's your fault and yours alone. Killswitches are commonly used today. The Kindle has one when it recalled a book it published awhile back. The Android just rencently sent out a killswitch for some malware. Yes these killswitches only disable content, but from the law's perspective its legal even if it totally disables the device. Once you void the warranty your recourses are pretty limited.

Now I'm not saying Nintendo would actually do this. The negative publicity would be pretty hard. The lawsuits would come, though Nintendo would probably win those if they really wanted to follow through with them. If they did they'd probably just settle. As I also said, the financial aspects could be negative from a support standpoint. They might weight the cost of support, the negative publicity, and the lawsuit settlements or going through with them, and decide it's not worth it. Believe me they WANT to do it. But ultimately I think the math doesn't add up to make it worthwhile.

To summarize

1) They can legally brick you console remotely if they wanted
2) It's extremely unlikely they will do so

The only place I would actually be scared of this happening is in Japan, where Nintendo has massive amounts of clout to create laws to basically make remote bricking legal. In other regions, they'd be too timid to bother.

You are an absolute pro at talking out of your ass. You actually sound like you know what you are talking about.

Unfortunately most developed countries have consumer protection laws that guard against this sort of thing. Remotely bricking a 3DS unit because they broke the TOS (which in various courts has been deemed laughably unenforceable.) Is completely illegal in most countries.