Hardware Enterking hints at 3DS log being accessable to vendors

[how_do_i_do_that]

(translated text)
"Dear customers who resell Nintendo 3DS "
"non purchase able 3DS system"
In case if you use equipment which is illegal or unapproved by Nintendo or if you do customization which is unapproved by Nintendo, there is a possibility that Nintendo 3DS become non bootable by system update.

- From Nintendo 3DS terms of agreement

Because of terms of agreement above, Enterking refuses to buy 3DS system with record of illegal or unapproved equipment.

"Request to format before you sell"

To protect from leaking your personal and internet connection information, We ask customer to format system. In case purchasing could not be established after you format 3DS system, Enterking is not responsible for lost datas and settings. Please understand before you format.
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Source



Priority of any new 3DS flashcart would be to have the ability to scrub such a log. Looks like alot of you will not be trading in any 3DS to gamestop anytime soon after you get a 3DS.

 

[Rydian]

Scare tactic.

I'm going to see what it logs and how before I worry.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

more the reason why we need to find out how to dump the NAND.

 

[Rydian]

Response; http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-...-flash-cart-use

 

[how_do_i_do_that]

Not much of a respone, saying that "we can't comment on security".


It is probably a more supped up version of the wii log.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

Although I would say that they can't purposely brick a device or otherwise cause it to become non-functional, but they indeed have with the 003 bricked korean wii's. But that is also something that the user would have to do to to the internal flash data themselves first. Just running a mod cart should not be justification enough to do something like that.

 

[MelodieOctavia]

Although I would say that they can't purposely brick a device or otherwise cause it to become non-functional, but they indeed have with the 003 bricked korean wii's. But that is also something that the user would have to do to to the internal flash data themselves first. Just running a mod cart should not be justification enough to do something like that.

Exactly. Like I said in another thread, Nintendo has as much right to remotely brick your 3DS, as they have rights to bust down your door and smash your 3DS with a baseball bat.

 

[doyama]

I also wonder where this is stored. The only 'safe' place would be in the NAND. But this is a pretty expensive place to store data like this. If it's stored on the SD card then what's the point.

The notification is also odd. Most used units never go back to Nintendo anyway. They're just recycled within the 3rd party community. Perhaps the repair/refurb system works differently in Japan. But in America once you give a 3DS to your local Gamestop, Nintendo will never see the unit. They usually go to some central refurb shop where it does some basic test and then shipped back out the retailer to resell. Heck sometimes the units never even leave the store itself.

They did pass some laws in Japan, which makes it illegal to have 'electronic copies' of software. Nintendo also has a lot of clout in terms of screwing over retailers if necessary. The used car market is also bizarre in Japan, where owning a used car costs MORE than buying a new one (you can thank Toyota/Honda for those laws). The only think I can think of is that in Japan all refurb machine must go through Nintendo (again thank you Nintendo for passing these awesome laws) so the retailers do not want to get screwed out of their money because Nintendo says "this used a flashcart! No money for you!". That would then make the retailers fear more palpable and real. Without an understanding of how refurbed consoles get recycled the notice could be addressing a real fear, a potential fear but no way of actually addressing it, or just FUD from Nintendo.

 

[Clydefrosch]

even if its just 1mb of nand, thats enough log for a few thousand lines of log, its not that expensive

 

[RNorthex]

I agree with Rydian
scare tactic, nothing else and it works and it should
wii had the same warning, so does the 3ds, we still know little about the system

 

[doyama]

Although I would say that they can't purposely brick a device or otherwise cause it to become non-functional, but they indeed have with the 003 bricked korean wii's. But that is also something that the user would have to do to to the internal flash data themselves first. Just running a mod cart should not be justification enough to do something like that.

Exactly. Like I said in another thread, Nintendo has as much right to remotely brick your 3DS, as they have rights to bust down your door and smash your 3DS with a baseball bat.

I would disagree here. The warranty on the device states that if you use an unauthorized device on the 3DS and it breaks, we aren't responsible to fix it. You may not like it, but Nintendo has a right to protect their IP as well as the IP of their developers. If a remote brick is the way they want to do this, then they have every right to do so and legally your situation is tenuous. Nintendo only needs to support authorized hardware. Just because you used a flash cart and it 'bricked' your 3DS, doesn't mean they owe you anything. Again the logic is, you ran a flash cart that executed an invalid instruction that obliterated the 3DS. So it's the flashcarts fault, not Nintendo's. No 'official' cart calls instructions in that manner so your warranty is invalidated. You can do whatever you want with the hardware and such, but don't expect Nintendo to support you for doing so.

My perspective as to why they wont' do this is more from an economical standpoint. Such a plan entails risk that you will get false positives. These false positives cost money to repair. So it ends up being a numbers game of how many false positives will you generate, and how much does the support cost. If that number is low enough then they might go ahead with the plan.

Other companies haven't pursued the bricking method for various other reasons. On the xbox360, they realised that the console itself was disposable. What really drove the experience was Xbox Live. Take that away and you really take away almost 90% of the xbox experience. The same on the PS3 which was to block PSN access to JB devices. Again since the online component was the most compelling portion. Since the 3DS doesn't really have a compelling online component, they can really only pursue what they did on the PSP which is to constantly update the firmware to keep hackers out. Though ultimately I think they're hampered by the need for backwards compatibility on that front.

 

[how_do_i_do_that]

The wii logs even survive even after a system wipe. Enterking, just want a depersonalized 3DS for trade in.


If you want to look past the scare tatic comments and speculation. You gotta ask yourself:
Does this mean Nintendo is providing large resellers like Enterking and gamestop with tools to read such logs?

 

[mysticwaterfall]

Like I said in the other thread...

Nintendo originally blocked flashcarts on the 3DS. So, at this point it could theoretically detect that you tried to use one and log it. But after the cards were updated, the flashcarts work, so the 3DS obviously can't detect them, or they would be blocked. It would be insanely silly to have the 3DS have a "detect and block" as well as a "detect but don't block" mode, assuming the later is even possible. So, if this was true, as long as you always updated your flashcart before your 3DS, Nintendo would have no way of knowing you ever used a flashcart. Sure, Alex Rider/whatever other game will be in your play log a lot, but maybe you're just a huge Alex Rider fan, Nintendo would have no way of knowing.

So in short - even if it were true, this rumor is not technically feasible.

 

[The Phantom]

I'd like to know how many retailers will even go along with is. Whoever goes along could loose a lot of money. I think game stop will say FU to Nintendo.

 

[AlanJohn]

... So no 3DS homebrew???

... BUT WAIT!!! CUSTOM FIRMWARE IS ON THE WAY...

 

[Rydian]

The warranty on the device states that if you use an unauthorized device on the 3DS and it breaks, we aren't responsible to fix it.Correct, that's what most of this boils down to. Also them not wanting you to use unauthorized (read as "we don't get a cut of the money") accessories.

You may not like it, but Nintendo has a right to protect their IP as well as the IP of their developers. If a remote brick is the way they want to do this, then they have every right to do so and legally your situation is tenuous.THIS is bullshit. Sony has a class-action lawsuit against them for the update that removed OtherOS. In addition consumer protection laws in the UK allowed people to get partial refunds (without returning the PS3) since the product no longer worked as advertised.

If an update that was not forced, needed user consent, and simply removed a feature from the system (leaving it otherwise operable) can earn a class-action lawsuit and refunds from stores there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

QUOTE(doyama @ Mar 8 2011, 12:52 PM)

Again the logic is, you ran a flash cart that executed an invalid instruction that obliterated the 3DS. So it's the flashcarts fault, not Nintendo's.

Are you kidding me? It could easily be proven that the system is bricking itself on purpose. The moment a shred of proof of that emerges Nintendo is FUCKED.

Purposely bricking will not happen.

 

[pachura]

there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

They don't have to advertise it as a remote brick. They can simply say that their firmware is crashing/malfunctioning because you fiddled with their device in the first place...

If you remove a cooling fan from your computer and your CPU fries, you cannot claim your warranty. You've lost it automatically by removing the seal.

 

[twiztidsinz]

there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

They don't have to advertise it as a remote brick. They can simply say that their firmware is crashing/malfunctioning because you fiddled with their device in the first place...

If you remove a cooling fan from your computer and your CPU fries, you cannot claim your warranty. You've lost it automatically by removing the seal.

Analogy fail.

You don't have to open the (3)DS(i) or remove anything.
This would be more akin to putting in a burned DVD and the computer crashing.

 

[MelodieOctavia]

there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

They don't have to advertise it as a remote brick. They can simply say that their firmware is crashing/malfunctioning because you fiddled with their device in the first place...

If you remove a cooling fan from your computer and your CPU fries, you cannot claim your warranty. You've lost it automatically by removing the seal.

Analogy fail.

You don't have to open the (3)DS(i) or remove anything.
This would be more akin to putting in a burned DVD and the computer crashing.

More like Microsoft noticing that WGA has failed on your system and sends a remote signal to fry your processor.

 

[Wombo Combo]

there's no way in HELL that a remote brick is legal or will go well at all. It's just a wet dream of anti-piracy people.

They don't have to advertise it as a remote brick. They can simply say that their firmware is crashing/malfunctioning because you fiddled with their device in the first place...

If you remove a cooling fan from your computer and your CPU fries, you cannot claim your warranty. You've lost it automatically by removing the seal.

Analogy fail.

You don't have to open the (3)DS(i) or remove anything.
This would be more akin to putting in a burned DVD and the computer crashing.

More like Microsoft noticing that WGA has failed on your system and sends a remote signal to fry your processor.

Microsoft doesn't make the hardware for your computer but Nintendo does make the hardware and software.