Hacking How does a r4 works exactly?

Yil · Oct 9, 2015

Especially the in card menu.
Why cannot sky3ds do the same (if it has its own cpu enough to run those menu since 3ds processor is hard to access)?
I believe it pretends to be a legit copy of some game.

sweis12 · Oct 9, 2015

Yil said:
Especially the in card menu.
Why cannot sky3ds do the same (if it has its own cpu enough to run those menu since 3ds processor is hard to access)?
I believe it pretends to be a legit copy of some game.

DS games did not have to be signed in the same way 3ds game do. DS mode carts can run whatever code they want. 3ds cards, like sky3ds can only run roms that are officially signed by nintendo.

Yil · Oct 9, 2015

sweis12 said:
DS games did not have to be signed in the same way 3ds game do. DS mode carts can run whatever code they want. 3ds cards, like sky3ds can only run roms that are officially signed by nintendo.

No one said you cannot assign code to in card cpu.

StriderVM · Oct 10, 2015

Yeah you can assign code to in card cpu, but the 3DS won't accept it unless it's signed.

The Real Jdbye · Oct 10, 2015

The only way this would be possible is with either a 3DS homebrew ran through one of the available entry points, like browserhax or themehax, or by embedding a DS-mode menu in the flashcart and giving it the ability to run in dual 3DS mode/DS mode. Neither of these are possible with the current Sky3DS cart because they didn't expose a way to switch games without using the button, none that we know of at least.

BringusStudios · Oct 10, 2015

Wait until the DSTwo Plus comes out, it's supposed to have a feature somewhat like that. It should be coming out Soon™.

palantine · Oct 10, 2015

The original DS had no copy protection or DRM other than that it required proprietary cartridges. Once these were understood and reproduced, it was trivial to run code such as the R4 menu.

The 3DS on the other hand is a much more complicated and secure beast. First of all, it actually has an operating system, code signing and firmware updates. This means that short of a hack (like gateway or others) its only possible to run code approved (Signed) by Nintendo. The Sky3ds works by imitating a 3ds game cart EXACTLY which fools the system into running it. That said only games that the 3ds would run ordinarily will work (because they must be signed) which is why it has no region free, homebrew, cheats or even a menu. The advantage though is that it can work on any firmware because its essentially software independent.

Unfortunately for Sky, Nintendo has been able to strike back with their new anti-piracy features. So far Sky3DS has been completely unable to circumvent this protection while Gateway was able to come up with a fix in less than 24 hours.

These reasons and more are why I think Gateway is the better device by far. Currently the only downside is the lack of updates for N3DS, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have something in the works.

-palantine

Yil · Oct 10, 2015

The Real Jdbye said:
The only way this would be possible is with either a 3DS homebrew ran through one of the available entry points, like browserhax or themehax, or by embedding a DS-mode menu in the flashcart and giving it the ability to run in dual 3DS mode/DS mode. Neither of these are possible with the current Sky3DS cart because they didn't expose a way to switch games without using the button, none that we know of at least.

palantine said:
The original DS had no copy protection or DRM other than that it required proprietary cartridges. Once these were understood and reproduced, it was trivial to run code such as the R4 menu.

The 3DS on the other hand is a much more complicated and secure beast. First of all, it actually has an operating system, code signing and firmware updates. This means that short of a hack (like gateway or others) its only possible to run code approved (Signed) by Nintendo. The Sky3ds works by imitating a 3ds game cart EXACTLY which fools the system into running it. That said only games that the 3ds would run ordinarily will work (because they must be signed) which is why it has no region free, homebrew, cheats or even a menu. The advantage though is that it can work on any firmware because its essentially software independent.

Unfortunately for Sky, Nintendo has been able to strike back with their new anti-piracy features. So far Sky3DS has been completely unable to circumvent this protection while Gateway was able to come up with a fix in less than 24 hours.

These reasons and more are why I think Gateway is the better device by far. Currently the only downside is the lack of updates for N3DS, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have something in the works.

-palantine

I mean once it starts running, the card can then enter a menu powered by its own cpu and enable features such as switching game quickly or run cheat, or other applications.

palantine · Oct 11, 2015

Yil said:
I mean once it starts running, the card can then enter a menu powered by its own cpu and enable features such as switching game quickly or run cheat, or other applications.

Once what is running? Yes it's possible for the internal Sky3DS cpu to run code however there is no way for it to display to the screen or anything like that because it is not attached to anything else. All it can do is emulate the 3DS gamecart interface as it was designed to do. As I explained previously there's no way for the Sky3DS to "enable" those features because it is essentially a hack of the cartridge rather than a hack of the console. The best comparison I can think of is to the 360 modding scene, which had drivemods and kernel hacks like Jtag and RGH. Drivemods were much easier and had fewer restrictions, but did not allow unsigned code, homebrew, cheats or anything besides playing copied games. Kernel hacks allowed all those features but were software dependent and could generally be patched (although RGH was so low level that it was difficult to prevent).

-palantine

honyo29 · Oct 11, 2015

Yil said:
I mean once it starts running, the card can then enter a menu powered by its own cpu and enable features such as switching game quickly or run cheat, or other applications.

....
because the "doors" are different.
ds "door" will let anything to pass.
but 3ds "door" only allows authorized personel (signed code) to enter.
if 3ds is a room, and sky is someone who wants to blow up (cheat or any other unsigned code) something inside the room, he is capable to built the bombs(cheat) because he has the brain(cpu) to make it, but he'll never gets to enter the room with it.
these gw and cfw guys could do these (get unsigned code executed) inside the room, because they entered from back door, gain access from the inside, and open the front door allowing anything to enter. unfortunately, not every kind of room has this back door, only older rooms (fw 9.2 and under).
*back to sleep*

Yil · Oct 11, 2015

honyo29 said:
....
because the "doors" are different.
ds "door" will let anything to pass.
but 3ds "door" only allows authorized personel (signed code) to enter.
if 3ds is a room, and sky is someone who wants to blow up (cheat or any other unsigned code) something inside the room, he is capable to built the bombs(cheat) because he has the brain(cpu) to make it, but he'll never gets to enter the room with it.
these gw and cfw guys could do these (get unsigned code executed) inside the room, because they entered from back door, gain access from the inside, and open the front door allowing anything to enter. unfortunately, not every kind of room has this back door, only older rooms (fw 9.2 and under).
*back to sleep*

What about you enter the room and build a bomb. 3ds do not check every single file in the card the very second it enters.

honyo29 · Oct 11, 2015

Yil said:
What about you enter the room and build a bomb. 3ds do not check every single file in the card the very second it enters.

if all you've got to bring inside are your costume and a piece of very convincing fake id card? how could you build a bomb out of them? you can enter from the front door, but there's not much you can do inside, just like every other people (genuine game cart) do.

doctorgoat · Oct 11, 2015

Yil said:
What about you enter the room and build a bomb. 3ds do not check every single file in the card the very second it enters.

running only signed code means it may as well.

tony_2018 · Oct 11, 2015

DS vs 3DS, different tech.

palantine · Oct 11, 2015

Yil said:
What about you enter the room and build a bomb. 3ds do not check every single file in the card the very second it enters.

The thing is is that you are exactly wrong. The 3DS does in fact check every single file as soon as it enters using its "signature". This check makes sure that the data being presented is identical to the signature that is generated by Nintendo. This means that the only way for a bomb to enter the room is if Nintendo allows it by signing one, if the private keys used to create signatures are hacked or stolen, or if there is a backdoor hack like gateway or others.

-palantine

tony_2018 · Oct 11, 2015

Yil said:
What about you enter the room and build a bomb. 3ds do not check every single file in the card the very second it enters.

And you know this how? If you know something we don't, go ahead and redesign your R4 card to load 3ds roms buddy, show me that PoC.

Hacking How does a r4 works exactly?

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