Hacking How can anyone be okay with Gateway's behavior?

stomp_442 · Jan 16, 2014

gamesquest1 said:
Unless of course.........did r4 lie to their users

the supporters of clone carts will never believe that.

wake up people, clones are not good for anything and the root cause of this mess.

sure gateway didn't need to install brick code in the firmware, and probably wouldn't have is somebody wasn't undercutting their sales with their own firmware.

Mr_Pichu · Jan 16, 2014

DinohScene said:
Only difference now is that with social media, the R4 got extremely popular.
Thus also attracting people who are better off not knowing about piracy.

Some will just do whatever their being told without researching a little.
Which ends up in bricked devices, broken hardware etc.

In a sense we are also a lot safer thanks to social media, as it is better to seek safety in numbers. I can remember the days of usenet where you posted a question and someone would respond within a few hours or days with an answer. Now you can get your answer in seconds or minutes, though it might not be the answer to the question you were asking.

Social media should be out there alerting all those R4 users about the danger at hand, I don't see that happening any place but in these scene forums. If they come here after they are in trouble, it is too late.

randomxiii · Jan 16, 2014

Another World said:
this is nothing new. akaio blocks ak2i-based clones from booting its kernel. dstt included a clone bricker in their kernel. the difference there was that it didn't harm the handhelds. i do not have any issue with gateway blocking or bricking clone cards. what i have issue with is when the result of their actions are unrecoverable. if they are intentionally permanently damaging hardware (both flash kits and handhelds) then they should stop receiving our support. their back peddling and comments that say "we told you so" are just another slap in our collective faces. they clearly had this intention from the very start. i understand that crown 3ds --- err gateway, wants to protect their hard work. but doing so at the cost of innocent gamers is uncalled for. if i was head of mag staff i would have posted a very different front page post than what is up there now. the warning would have been 1 line and the rest of the article would have been an attack on gateway for this behavior.

this is simply not acceptable. gbatemp should stop promoting their products.

-another world

I believe bricking consoles is as malicious as far as DRM goes, but I hope you realize how futile it is to tell everybody to stop supporting GW. Pirates won't buy games even if they brick 2-3 3DS's. If pirates want to continue pirating, do they go for GW who is offering features or with the clones who aren't doing anything new and just running the photocopy machine?

Also, the clones won't suddenly gain the skill to develop original features for their carts. Most likely they'll just wait for a dev to publish the patch and steal it. I've seen too many international Chinese students at US colleges copying HW and projects in groups. Once the gig is up (during exam time), their true skills appear. You can't copy stuff all your life and then develop "mad skillz" after being busted. It doesn't work that way.

gamesquest1 · Jan 16, 2014

Even on there official site they still haven't warned users that if they don't up(down)date they can break their 3ds....and gateway are the bad ones?

Comes to something when you have to go to a rival products site to find out that the card you are using can break your 3ds

DinohScene · Jan 16, 2014

Mr_Pichu said:
In a sense we are also a lot safer thanks to social media, as it is better to seek safety in numbers. I can remember the days of usenet where you posted a question and someone would respond within a few hours or days with an answer. Now you can get your answer in seconds or minutes, though it might not be the answer to the question you were asking.

Social media should be out there alerting all those R4 users about the danger at hand, I don't see that happening any place but in these scene forums. If they come here after they are in trouble, it is too late.

I fully agree with you on that.
Luckily with the 360 and PS3, where hacking gets you banned from the online services, the noobs hardly attempt such a thing.
Which reduces the amount of bricks/fucked up consoles.
Even tho there are ~2 million banned consoles...
It's far less then the Wii/DS, where it's far more easier to pirate things on.

Lunai · Jan 16, 2014

Gateway bricking not just the device itself, but a device that we can't recreate cause there's limited 4.X's out there, is really a dick move.
However, the measures taken were extreme yet effective in its goal. Perhaps too effective.
I understand their intention of stopping clones, but destroying a 4.5 console so that no one can use it again is just bad for business on both ends.
A clone user could have become a Gateway user, but NO it had to destroy the entire console.
Perhaps this was the only method they could have taken, because R4 might have just made a patch around any anti-clone measure and by bricking the console permanently they cant extract anything that could help make a patch for it.
But honestly, I'd rather they had just dealt with their competition with small anti-clone measures that can last....a month each before being cracked, instead of some final-resort measure of "If I can't have this customer, neither can you" BS.
At the end of the day, clones look like losers, and GW looks like an aggressor. (I mean if they wanted to, they could just disappear with one final update that bricked EVERYONE)
I'm still a happy customer of GW (even if they did what they did, and my 3DS got jacked) but I will disapprove of their action and hope they release a fix, or at the very least apologize.

ELok · Jan 16, 2014

Ok, I'll take the shot.

As a future customer that didn't buy any flash card yet, I have to say that I'm not okay with R4i's behavior of copying Gateway product.

However, this "won't" affect my decision on which card I'll buy. It's a choice, my choice. As I kept "Thriller" in my mp3 after all the bad press around M.J. at the time. I'll buy the best product "for the buck". And before this little controversy, the best option certainly wasn't Gateway.

Don't point the finger at me yet, all the successful electronic company have an history of stolen intellectual property and it's not the responsibility of the customer to make a difference. It's the responsibility of the government, the law.

On the other hand, now we have a company (Gateway) that seems to have purposely sabotaged their work. While we could argue about the right or wrong of those action, one thing is certain, the one that pay the price are those customer. And I got a huge problem about this.

And hear me out, I wouldn't mind to bad if the sabotage simply make the firmware unusable. But we're talking about "destruction of property" of customer that, alway in my opinion, have done nothing wrong except paying the best product on the market.

Of course, as far as I know there's no proof yet that Gateway deliberately wanted to brick those 3DS. But if it's the case I'll have a bigger problem again Gateway that attacked customers instead of R4i that attacked Gateway.

Still, in the end I'll still buy the "best for the buck". And gateway will have to drop their price before I decide to buy their product. But It's not for some time, I'll wait that the exploit are more solid.

Elok

Deleted User · Jan 16, 2014

gamesquest1 said:
I'm just finding it all funny at this point. Slightly boring but then someone comes up with an even more absurd and extreme analogy that makes it all worth it XD

Ps if you don't understand the code....you shouldn't be tinkering with it in a basement it's just creepy

Go look in the python tools thread there's code there to tinker with

See, but the person did understand code, hence the "Point in case the region free firmware". Someone could still be using a Gateway flashcard, but the checksum check would brick his whole console for using a custom *better* firmware. I'm just saying, Gateway is pretty scum baggy to actually damage a device that costs over $100.

Lunai · Jan 16, 2014

ELok said:
Ok, I'll take the shot.

As a future customer that didn't buy any flash card yet, I have to say that I'm not okay with R4i's behavior of copying Gateway product.

However, this "won't" affect my decision on which card I'll buy. It's a choice, my choice. As I kept "Thriller" in my mp3 after all the bad press around M.J. at the time. I'll buy the best product "for the buck". And before this little controversy, the best option certainly wasn't Gateway.

Don't point the finger at me yet, all the successful electronic company have an history of stolen intellectual property and it's not the responsibility of the customer to make a difference. It's the responsibility of the government, the law.

On the other hand, now we have a company (Gateway) that seems to have purposely sabotaged their work. While we could argue about the right or wrong of those action, one thing is certain, the one that pay the price are those customer. And I got a huge problem about this.

And hear me out, I wouldn't mind to bad if the sabotage simply make the firmware unusable. But we're talking about "destruction of property" of customer that, alway in my opinion, have done nothing wrong except paying the best product on the market.

Of course, as far as I know there's no proof yet that Gateway deliberately wanted to brick those 3DS. But if it's the case I'll have a bigger problem again Gateway that attacked customers instead of R4i that attacked Gateway.

Still, in the end I'll still buy the "best for the buck". And gateway will have to drop their price before I decide to buy their product. But It's not for some time, I'll wait that the exploit are more solid.

Elok

We are gathered here today...

Kupie · Jan 16, 2014

This thread is the best.

gamesquest1 · Jan 16, 2014

Lunai said:
I'd rather they had just dealt with their competition with small anti-clone measures that can last....a month each before being cracked, instead of some final-resort measure

I'm sure they will of tried blocking before just going ahead and dropping the brick bomb.....I wouldn't be surprised if gateway themselves told the clones what they would do if they didn't stop copying, truth is the clones would of always just bypassed any anti-cloning code and carried on as if nothing happen, I mean come on they just bricked a bunch of people's consoles and are pretending nothing happened and posting fake updates on their site. Not even warning people about the dangers of not downgrading....this in itself is just as bad as anything gateway have done

redkeyboard · Jan 16, 2014

randomxiii said:
I believe bricking consoles is as malicious as far as DRM goes, but I hope you realize how futile it is to tell everybody to stop supporting GW. Pirates won't buy games even if they brick 2-3 3DS's. If pirates want to continue pirating, do they go for GW who is offering features or with the clones who aren't doing anything new and just running the photocopy machine?

Also, the clones won't suddenly gain the skill to develop original features for their carts. Most likely they'll just wait for a dev to publish the patch and steal it. I've seen too many international Chinese students at US colleges copying HW and projects in groups. Once the gig is up (during exam time), their true skills appear. You can't copy stuff all your life and then develop "mad skillz" after being busted. It doesn't work that way.

lol at the racism in this one

djgarf · Jan 16, 2014

i dont know why your all moaning like this
if you use flashcards / hacks you always stand a chance of things going wrong
if you are not willing to take that risk then the answer is simple, stick to buying official cartridges
if you are willing to take that risk and things go wrong you only have yourself to blame

BMinkie · Jan 16, 2014

amen DJ garfie i missed ya man where is linki?

osirisjem · Jan 16, 2014

spinner09 said:
It's downright despicable that a company installed a trojan to try and screw over its competitors

I felt it was stupid to buy a non-Gateway card from Day1.
Why buy a card from someone who knows nothing about it ? Surely that would be trouble.

Well low and behold it is trouble.
I guess all this bricking should teach people a lesson for buying shitty knockoffs from companies that are too lazy to make their own stuff.

The blame should be on r4i for failing to protect their customers.
Why is it Gateway's fault r4i know nothing ? And can't support their customers or product ?
The Blame is on r4i.

FAST6191 · Jan 16, 2014

randomxiii said:
I believe bricking consoles is as malicious as far as DRM goes, but I hope you realize how futile it is to tell everybody to stop supporting GW. Pirates won't buy games even if they brick 2-3 3DS's. If pirates want to continue pirating, do they go for GW who is offering features or with the clones who aren't doing anything new and just running the photocopy machine?

That is an interesting position. Now most of the time the clones lack support, are made with substandard hardware (which is hardly renowned for quality in its original form) and are generally not a great method so they die off by themselves, or some third party picks up the torch and runs with it (see Wood for the R4).
However this is not the first case of shenanigans, though it possibly is the most unpleasant, and teams have been called out on it before. The DSX people probably being the most notable
http://gbatemp.net/threads/the-integrity-of-gbatemp-reviews.36984/
Team cyclops had some stuff a few years back ( http://gbatemp.net/threads/additional-info-regarding-the-cyclods-ievolution.270434/ , http://gbatemp.net/threads/cyclops-responds-to-gbatemp-with-an-update.270944/ http://gbatemp.net/threads/cyclops-team-answers-disappointed-fans.270593/ ).
Neoflash earned it back with homebrew contests and generally doing well for other things, not to mention they were never truly in the dog house despite what some people seem to think.
In more recent times the PS3 and 360 had various things happen. More so the PS3 and some of the hacking tools there though. The 360 stuff was more involved and might take some explaining but things happened there to (some of the 8 series liteons if you do want to go searching).

Now the question of the lack of alternatives will certainly arise, to say nothing of gateway not suffering the usual clone/suspect team problems, but I would not be in quite such a hurry to write the flash cart types off in this regard.

Xzi · Jan 16, 2014

king_leo said:
Let's bring in an example: Hitler

No. Just no.

Wisenheimer · Jan 16, 2014

spinner09 said:
It's downright despicable that a company installed a trojan to try and screw over its competitors, and people are actually defending it. Even more despicable that they went after end-users who didn't even do anything wrong, yet get screwed with a bricked console. Most average "Joe Shmoes" don't know that 3DSLink/r4i Gold are clones of Gateway, so why should they suffer? Why would Gateway want to go after users? If Gateway has a beef against anyone, it should be the r4 team themselves, not the consumers.

Just imagine if Sony or Dell started installing trojans in their laptops that would automatically destroy your computer if you tried to use any "unorthorized" parts (like cheaper third-party batteries). There would be an uproar, and people would be crying for Sony's head. I really believe the only people defending Gateway are diehard fanboys who don't like the idea of choice.

And as for the nonsense "b-but r4/3dslink are just clones/thieves" argument, that's par for the course in the modding/cracking world. Everyone copies everyone else, especially in China. In the end of the day, it's actually better for the consumer, since more choice means better prices. It's not a big deal. And $85 is an absurd price point to begin with.
But back to my point; Gateway's mantra from day 1 (months ago) has been "clones use cheaper parts and might brick your console", which turned out to be utterly false and a blatant lie. So, they attempted to make their lies come true by programming in a trojan that does just that. Shame on them, and shame on anyone who defends that shit.

The difference is that Sony and Dell are respected international businesses that are publicly traded and can be held liable in a court of law for their actions. Gateway is apparently a few hackers who attempt to remain anonymous, operating out of a third world country where legal action by foreign consumers is largely futile. They appeared on the scene a few months ago. Their sole product is used almost entirely for piracy of currently marketed and manufactured software. They basically have no accountability and no reason for consumers to trust them.

I am not claiming that the people who used these devices (almost all of whom are pirating newly released games) deserve what they get, especially the handful who bought the Gateway to disable region-locking. Nobody deserves to have their property intentionally vandalized. But what I will point out is that, given these facts, it is far from surprising.

I will not buy a card for 3DS games unless it can run arbitrary unsigned code (like homebrew) or most 3DS software is no longer being actively manufactured or marketed.

The iron in all this is Gateway is profiting from enabling consumers to steal other people's code (they almost certainly would have their assets seized by Nintendo if they were operating in a country with a just legal system) while vindictively destroying the property of those who steal their code.

temp1312 · Jan 16, 2014

djgarf said:
i dont know why your all moaning like this
if you use flashcards / hacks you always stand a chance of things going wrong
if you are not willing to take that risk then the answer is simple, stick to buying official cartridges
if you are willing to take that risk and things go wrong you only have yourself to blame

We might suffer from tornadoes, earthquakes etc..
We have no choice as along as we are human and living in this earth.
But, We are not supposed to be murdered, that's the difference.
(I mean if the GW users also have the risk of being bricked.)

Ericthegreat · Jan 16, 2014

Well, gateway wants money, they dont give a shit about you or anyone else, why wouldn't they make competitors devices brick peoples consoles is the real question. You need to learn not to think others are considerate or have any feeling whatsoever.

Hacking How can anyone be okay with Gateway's behavior?

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