Hacking Is it worth staying on 5.05?

[godreborn]

say what you will about the switch (I know some people don't like it, since it's not powerful enough), but you can play new games on that as long as your system isn't patched, so it's the perfect companion for a ps4. however, there's not really anything you can do about exclusives.

 

[Deleted User]

say what you will about the switch (I know some people don't like it, since it's not powerful enough), but you can play new games on that as long as your system isn't patched, so it's the perfect companion for a ps4. however, there's not really anything you can do about exclusives.

right and last of us 2 is one hell of an exclusive. Red Dead 2 I got to enjoy on xbox one x thank goodness. One problem with the switch is that most multiplatform games are just a pass for me. Like I am so impressed by witcher 3 and what they did but that was pc all the way for me. I shudder to think what red dead 2 will look like.

Guess all I can do is patiently wait...

 

[IndieDeveloper]

Are you insane?? Who touch oficial SDK to make homebrew is asking for Sony's lawyer...

A open source SDK is for the devs to be on the safe side...but are there enough dev out there on 5.05???

I'm not crazy. Developing homebrew with official sdk will bring almost nothing against you, legal issues are related to key release and/or reverse engineering of SONY material. Just set an example in the ps3 scene or even xbox : no homebrew developer has ever had any legal problems.
Also, developing an unofficial SDK is not legal. YOU (I don't mean you, a generic you) you can't develop homebrew in theory.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

The homebrew-devs are there, and quiet they will always work with an official SDK. an unofficial SDK, like CrazyVoid's, is obviously not documented and doesn't have the quality and multiplicity of features that an official SDK from you.
Lack of exploit-dev, or rather if there are do not release anything for very but very particular reasons

 

[Deleted User]

yes indiedeveloper is right. Even with unofficial sdk it is not legal. You just have better legal grounds to defend yourself. Technically you still void the agreement with the oem. I don't know. All this stuff gets so depressing honestly. I hate thinking about it. So far the companies have been nice essentially. In some cases not so nice. See YouTube's new enforcement of policies in terms of certain channels being given strikes or having their videos removed. Mind you when just discussing emulation. Making it even more complex is different countries have different laws. It is all very troubling. I miss the good ole og xbox days. Early psp scene days. Now homebrew modding projects get pulled left and right.

 

[smf]

Also, developing an unofficial SDK is not legal. YOU (I don't mean you, a generic you) you can't develop homebrew in theory.

What law do you think it's breaking?

 

[Deleted User]

What law do you think it's breaking?

gosh it's not so much law as agreement then the case from their side would be this essentially. They in good faith spent x amount of dollars to develop and market a console which the accused purchased and developed software which competes with their product. This is in violation of agreement they made when they purchased and used said product. It is all very boring law and not clear cut. It is murky. It will vary from country to country making it even more unclear. But that would be the example basically. It is the grounds Nintendo is using alot. Basically protecting their intellectual property and marketing of their brand and trademarks. Important characters etc.

 

[smf]

gosh it's not so much law as agreement then the case from their side would be this essentially. They in good faith spent x amount of dollars to develop and market a console which the accused purchased and developed software which competes with their product. This is in violation of agreement they made when they purchased and used said product. It is all very boring law and not clear cut. It is murky. It will vary from country to country making it even more unclear. But that would be the example basically. It is the grounds Nintendo is using alot. Basically protecting their intellectual property and marketing of their brand and trademarks. Important characters etc.

That sounds made up. Unless you can provide a law or court case then I think you're wrong.

The shrink wrap license you get with the console is basically worthless for many reasons. It doesn't stop a legal sdk from being made.

 

[Deleted User]

That sounds made up. Unless you can provide a law or court case then I think you're wrong.

The shrink wrap license you get with the console is basically worthless for many reasons. It doesn't stop a legal sdk from being made.

Well law is very very complex. Don't think about the shrink wrap. Think more the wall of words in the sony agreement. Also keep in mind the one example I gave you. It wasn't that the sdk itself was illegal. It basically infringed on the rights of the manufacturer who must support and make a profit with their product. So as we all know sony makes it's money on various things. T shirts. Consoles. Games. etc. So while you may not consider homebrew to be bad per se. And I agree with you. A lawyer can present it as well competition. Illegal competition essentially. As someone developing homebrew would have no agreement with sony to distribute such software.

As for the specific law this gets murky. Different countries have different regulations. This is relatively young law if you will. But there are certainly precedents in the computer industry which would be used.

Look I hate to say it but no you are not technically legal when you make say a game for unity on a modded ps4. Same with a homebrew sdk. If you attempted to charge for it boy oh boy I imagine it would be trouble. Yes this is how corporate law does in fact work. One of the travesties that I have witnessed is often the lawyers and judges will not be knowledgeable about many things. Yes money does talk. A high price sony lawyer may even get the law bent in their favor. Heck even when laws DO NOT exist.

Frankly I find the topic depressing. You in fact should be right. Alas when push comes to shove I am afraid the corporations have more pull sadly.

 

[smf]

Well law is very very complex. Don't think about the shrink wrap. Think more the wall of words in the sony agreement. Also keep in mind the one example I gave you.

The "wall of words in the sony agreement" is a shrink wrap license. As you can use a console without ever reading it and agreeing to it, then it's worthless.

It wasn't that the sdk itself was illegal. It basically infringed on the rights of the manufacturer who must support and make a profit with their product.

If the sdk isn't illegal, what rights is it infringing? There is no law that protects you making a profit on a product, copyright only protects your right to make copies. But a homebrew sdk doesn't include anything copyrightable.

As for the specific law this gets murky. Different countries have different regulations. This is relatively young law if you will. But there are certainly precedents in the computer industry which would be used.

And there are reverse engineering and interoperability laws that explicitly allow you to create an SDK, so I think you should provide some precedents if you want to win this argument.

Wine is a reimplementation of Windows, if there was a law that protected Microsofts right to make a profit then they would have closed Wine down now.

Look I hate to say it but no you are not technically legal when you make say a game for unity on a modded ps4.

That is irrelevant to the discussion, keep it on topic of homebrew SDKs. Using unity without a license is another matter entirely.

 

[Deleted User]

Well a few points. I am totally not arguing with you and am in fact on your side. If you want to consider it an argument i kinda pity you. Let it go boss. Think more discussion. I bring up unity just because that is all we have so far. Just a few homebrew unity games. We still have yet to see what the homebrew sdk will bring. I bring it up to just say hey doesn’t matter if it is unity or not because they both have no legal ground. As for the shrink wrap. Yes believe it or not i consider that two separate agreements. Because if you look closely these days yes there will be the paper agreement most consoles will have packaged with them. Then if you notice you will usually have yet another agreement you agree to when the console is brought online to their service. Sometimes the two agreements mirror each other. But in my case i was referring to them being two separate agreements. These days if you read them carefully which who does right? You forgo the type of rights you are referring to. It is quite common. But not my point. Also I would add that while the companies have been fairly nice so far things change every day. My point is if let’s say things ever got large (the scene is fairly small relatively) then I am pretty sure the corporations involved yes would seek legal action against a homebrew developer. In the specific scenario they were profiting yes. The understanding here being that it would be a threat to their revenue.

i think the part you get hung up on is the law. I am sorry to tell you that is what the courts and judges are for. Not only to enforce law but to decide upon it.

similar to how i explain it is murky. That the type of laws they would attack with etc. can you cite the law protecting them? Haha. Foof for thought. The bigger, sadder, issue is the corps carry more weight and influence in the courts.

all in all the idea of having a homebrew sdk is not a bad one. All I am pointing out is in the end if someone attempting to profit and cite that as an ironclad defense it would not turn out well for them. It is an interesting situation. One example of something that could really change it is a higher firmware exploit. But so far only a few small players have ever tried to profit from ps4 scene to my knowledge. I am sure you are aware of the various nintendo cases no?

 

[IndieDeveloper]

What law do you think it's breaking?

It will be a long and boring message, but I want to explain in the best possible way. @seanp2500 hit the point, the arguments are pretty much those . I advise you to stay calm and not get agitated, because I'm trying to explain the situation, you don't have to get angry.
Let's start with the basics.
What is an SDK?
A software development kit (SDK) is a collection of software development tools in one installable package.
As you can see clearly from Sony Playstation's ToS:

You may not reproduce or transfer any portion of the Property, or use the Property for purposes of resale, public performance, display, distribution or broadcast, except as stated in this agreement or as expressly permitted by us.

The official Sony SDK is not owned by Sony itself, Sn System is a part of Sony, so its ToS are worth .
Having worked on behalf of my university on an application development program as a playstation partner I can mention the ToS of Playstation partners, which are even clearer :

SIE or its licensors own PlayStation Partners, all information or materials provided on or through it and all intellectual property rights in PlayStation Partners and such information and materials. All rights are reserved. Unless otherwise expressly agreed by SIE, you shall not copy, modify, publish or transfer any PlayStation Partners content. Except as permitted by law, you shall not decompile or reverse engineer or otherwise break or attempt to break any encryption protecting such content. You shall not distribute or disclose any information or materials on PlayStation Partners to third parties including data relating to you or your organization’s PlayStation Store sales or activity.

Of course, it is mentioned the impossibility of performing reverse engineering, but also the copy only, and an unofficial SDK is a "copy" of the aforementioned official SDK, so you are violating the law.
Now we are not stupid, we know that all these topics and material are piracy but SONY does not care who develops homebrew, SONY cares who releases the keys, which allow full access to their encryption systems.
So the story of developing a "legal" SDK doesn't exist. It's all a scene to cover the current state of the PS4 scene.
Because developing unofficial SDK is illegal under SONY copyright, as it should be.
If you want examples, just search the internet and find "many" people who ask the same question, and the answer is a :
YOU CAN'T DEVELOP AN UNOFFICIAL SDK

 

[smf]

and an unofficial SDK is a "copy" of the aforementioned official SDK

No, it's not. A homebrew SDK doesn't need to have anything copyrightable from the official SDK.

Now we are not stupid

You didn't reference any laws. Only the shrink wrap license, which is a contract. What if you don't agree to those terms and enter into the contract? Sony cannot unilaterally enter into a contract with me. Can you provide a link to where you copied them from?

Maybe you're not stupid, but it's not looking good.

SONY cares who releases the keys

Homebrew isn't signed with any of Sony's keys.

 

[IndieDeveloper]

No, it's not. A homebrew SDK doesn't need to have anything copyrightable from the official SDK.

Developing a development tool ( SDK ), violates SONY's official ToS. ToS, of course, are not the law, but by violating the ToS you have to be careful which appendix we violate. Copying, reproducing,developing,crack,hack,reverse or anything else violates the copyright law that is above the Sony SDK; nobody and I say no one can publicly release an open source SDK and say it won't have legal issues. because it's not like that.
It violates the law and it is possible (very likely) a complaint by SONY.

You didn't reference any laws. Only the shrink wrap license, which is a contract. What if you don't agree to those terms and enter into the contract? Sony cannot unilaterally enter into a contract with me. Can you provide a link to where you copied them from?

Maybe you're not stupid, but it's not looking good.

My friend, I'm not stupid, I know what I'm talking about. This "contract", if it can be defined as such, applies to the development world and not. It is not only valid for those who enter into a partner playstation contract (software house etc) but also for an end-user.
I didn't link any specific laws? Search the internet copyright infringement. you'll see a lot of unpleasant results, especially if you go to hit SONY and all derivatives (software house in particular ). I can't link confidential material to you, but on the internet with a short search you find it easily, it should be public maybe. I have no reason to invent ^^
Returning to the famous "contract" you have named. It is mandatory to accept it, you cannot use the PS4 console and its services. This applies to Apple,Android,Microsoft,Dell,AMD, Nintendo or any other company, I could mention it indefinitely.
They all have their own SDK (some companies even multiple).
The story they tell around is that because SONY on the PS4 system uses open source material, such as FreeBSD and WebKit for example, then it is possible to exploit,reverse,code,programming and any fucking thing because it is not owned by SONY.
Wrong. Sony uses these open sources, but first of all they are modified according to sony for that system acquires the rights.

Homebrew isn't signed with any of Sony's keys.

Did I ever say otherwise? O.o Please tell me where

I would like to point out that I am not against developing an unofficial SDK, for goodness sake.I am in favour of homebrew development on PS4, but this is not the right way.
To make it short, sony does not punish those who develop homebrew, but who releases exploit/keys or any material inherent in cracking/hacking .

 

[Goku1992A]

That's why I think getting 2nd ps4 is not necessary. It is a waste money. If you really want to play for free.. You gotta to be patient and be happy with 5.05 for now. Getting 2nd PS4 doesn't make sense because you are buying games but getting free for other PS4 jailbreak ? What ? It doesn't make sense at all.

And someone will release a newer kexploit but you can't say pretty please. PS5 is coming and they will release kexploit unexpectedly surprise to us. That's why I am waiting and patient. I dont want to bother them at all. Be patient.

I have to disagree with you here. I personally own 2 switches. My regular switch lite what I use for pokemon Sword and Mario kart 8 and other online games and my OG switch that has over 60 bootleg games on it. The reason why people have multiple consoles is because some games you need online to run properly.

I had bought the 2nd PS4 on ebay but I didnt do my research on it all the games that was available I already owned so I just sold it. I still have my regular PS4 which I haven't played since August I mostly play Xbox. If you have disposable income it isnt a waste of money since there are still some perks of online and content on certain games.

My motto is this if it's a game I really want to play that needs alot of online ill buy it. If it's a game that offers only single player them I'll bootleg it

 

[smf]

I bring up unity just because that is all we have so far.

But the discussion is about the legality of what we don't currently have, which is a homebrew SDK.
A homebrew SDK can't be illegal just because the existing solutions are illegal. That makes no sense.

i think the part you get hung up on is the law. I am sorry to tell you that is what the courts and judges are for. Not only to enforce law but to decide upon it.

Courts apply the law as they interpret it, but you can challenge the court if you believe they interpreted it incorrectly.

The reason to be hung up on the law is that is the only thing that makes things illegal.

all in all the idea of having a homebrew sdk is not a bad one. All I am pointing out is in the end if someone attempting to profit and cite that as an ironclad defense it would not turn out well for them.

I don't quite see what profit there is, but unless you can provide a law that makes a homebrew sdk illegal then a court won't do anything whether you profit or not.

I am sure you are aware of the various nintendo cases no?

I am. devkitpro are still going strong despite offering homebrew SDK's for multiple Nintendo consoles.

Nintendo have gone after flash carts and other devices though, but these are not the topic of debate here.

My friend, I'm not stupid, I know what I'm talking about. This "contract", if it can be defined as such, applies to the development world and not. It is not only valid for those who enter into a partner playstation contract (software house etc) but also for an end-user.

No it does not apply to end users. You have to sign that contract to gain access to material that are not available to the end user, so they can sue you if you use that information in ways that are not covered by the contract. I have never signed a partner playstation contract and therefore I cannot be bound by it's terms.

Think about it. I have written a contract that says you must pay me £1,000,000 pounds. You are now bound by contract law to do so. I await the money.

If you don't want us to think you are stupid then please stop demonstrating to the contrary.

 

[askara]

Is it confirmed some developers has working private hack? or is it complete silence since 5.05? If there is private hack i will wait and get PS5 once it release, but if not, then may as well update my console

 

[IndieDeveloper]

No it does not apply to end users. You have to sign that contract to gain access to material that are not available to the end user, so they can sue you if you use that information in ways that are not covered by the contract. I have never signed a partner playstation contract and therefore I cannot be bound by it's terms.

Think about it. I have written a contract that says you must pay me £1,000,000 pounds. You are now bound by contract law to do so. I await the money.

If you don't want us to think you are stupid then please stop demonstrating to the contrary.

These are not ToS just for playstation partner lol you don't want to understand, you were led to believe otherwise but it is not so. Developing une SDK homebrew is illegal point.
These are SONY PLAYSTATION's ToS. Think about it, you can't crack, hack or do any programming and reverse engineering on the SONY console.
The law speaks clearly, you stop saying an incredible falsehood

 

[smf]

These are not ToS just for playstation partner lol you don't want to understand

I can't find those ToS anywhere online, so please can you post where you found them? I haven't agreed to them and therefore I am not bound by them.

These are SONY PLAYSTATION's ToS. Think about it, you can't crack, hack or do any programming and reverse engineering on the SONY console.

Think about what? You have given me nothing to think about.

The law speaks clearly, you stop saying an incredible falsehood

What law? You haven't posted any law.

I believe you are now trolling.

 

[spotanjo3]

I have to disagree with you here. I personally own 2 switches. My regular switch lite what I use for pokemon Sword and Mario kart 8 and other online games and my OG switch that has over 60 bootleg games on it. The reason why people have multiple consoles is because some games you need online to run properly.

I had bought the 2nd PS4 on ebay but I didnt do my research on it all the games that was available I already owned so I just sold it. I still have my regular PS4 which I haven't played since August I mostly play Xbox. If you have disposable income it isnt a waste of money since there are still some perks of online and content on certain games.

My motto is this if it's a game I really want to play that needs alot of online ill buy it. If it's a game that offers only single player them I'll bootleg it

I respect your opinion. To me, online is 100 percent USELSS and it doesn't mean anything. I am fine with offline because I like to finish the game to the ending story. And it is worth to me. Why online ? For competitive or trade things that need to be online over the world. Sorry but that's why online for those things are SO worthless and useless. I cannot care about it at all.

To me, if I want non jailbreak console to use online then I would buy games only and no piracy at all. It would make a sense to me. If I want both jailbreak and non jailbreak consoled then it doesn't mean a sense. Waste money. I said yes, really waste money.

 

[skinnyBIGGS]

We know 6.5x kex exists.

We know Spider-Man has been dumped.

We know other 5.5x+ games have also been dumped.

We know how to wait patiently.

Yes patience is a must if your a ps4 owner ..gonna be like xmas when it drops lol