1. Deleted User

    Deleted User Newbie

    Again the point of bringing up unity, ahem which you missed, is that both a homebrew sdk and using unity no difference both violate tos...moving on

    the reason I am chiding you for being hung up on law is because the courts side strongly with the corporations. I have even made the point to you if there WERE NO SPECIFIC LAW the courts would still side with them. The system is crooked sadly. I guess you live in some ivory tower. Have you not eyes to see what is around you. Now remember I agree with you. I in my own heart and mind feel you are right. But yes if for some reason the scene got larger and an individual tried to use said sdk to turn a profit he would be made an example of. Keep in mind I am talking something as simple as a patreon or a youtube channel etc.

    right now the scene is relatively small. But let's say someone tried to sell a homebrew game they made or a port or the above examples I gave. If the scene was in the hundreds of thousands to millions (like the switch scene) sure I can see that individual or group being attacked legally. You bet ya. Companies protect revenue. Now to me I draw a line when someone thinks they are doing things legally when I know they are illegal. It isn't to be like you are wrong and I am right blah blah.

    I have been locked up for things I didn't do. It is not fun...In my case it was brief. I uh "fit the description" really sucked...

    It is to WARN A BROTHER...not to rub it in his face that they are wrong and I am right. Maybe they honestly don't realize the state of affairs. The nintendo cases were cited to show you recent cases where a company is being aggressive legally. Several sites have been lost to this in the past 2 years. Have you not eyes?

    In my world signing physically would matter. I am with you. But the world has changed. When you take your ps4 and agree to tos electronically I am afraid that they have you. If you notice the big difference between all the consoles is the xbox one is very insistent you use their online service to setup. That was not a mistake. Even offline your ps4 still gives you an agreement upon user creation. I am afraid in their eyes you have signed. You may argue this. I would suggest you discuss it in a level headed manner. But to me there is nothing to debate there. It is done. What is possible is if attacked legally and if they make a good argument perhaps the "little guy" could win. Yes. nothing is impossible. But as we spoke of precedent's earlier let me cite one for you. I introduce you to the sad tale of my friend Graf_Chokolo....

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/28/jailbreaker_defies_sony/
     
    Last edited Mar 2, 2020
  2. IndieDeveloper

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    I'm not trolling lol
    There is no precise law, indeed there is and you know what it is called? copyright infringement.
    I will get explained directly by someone inside with any documents that may be published that reproduce a company's Software Development Kit (SDK) for public use and the consequent release of applications is a "crime" and you'll have to find good lawyers and lots of money to defend yourself from SONY.
    If you were the owner of SONY and someone develops an SDK (cloned, because the SDK they are developing is cloned, only does not contain copywritten code ) and you would allow the development and release of homebrew, surely you would take legal action with the developer and releases this SDK.
    Developing homebrew is also illegal, because they run on a console that is protected by copyright laws.
    Let's not pass these lawsuits, because they're not. But since I see you're pretty ignorant, sorry, but pretend you don't see, I'll mention a little something :
    Copyright infringement
    Copyright infringement, that is, copyright in Anglo-Saxon jargon, occurs when the copyright of the author of the work is damaged through:
    • It's plagiarism
    • reproduction of the work for commercial purposes
    • change without permission
    Plagiarism – plagiarism occurs when a work is reproduced in a total or partial way and its paternity is unduly attributed to others and not to the author.
    Commercial reproduction – this type of violation takes place at a time when a musical, film, literary, artistic, etc. work is illegally reproduced and sold without the author's permission.
    Edit – only the author has the right to edit his work. Any other changes made without your consent from others are illegal.
    A homebrew SDK is plagiarism, because it's a total/partial copy of what the official SONY SDK does.
    Generally :
    Today the penalties for copyright infringementrs are very heavy and include both fines (which can be as high as 15,000 euros) and imprisonment (from 3 to 6 months) and it is worth remembering that copyright offences are punishable by office, so to set in motion The judicial machine only needs to report it to the relevant authorities. But going against SONY could be worse than a loss
     
  3. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    It appears you are trolling as nobody is talking about reproducing Sony's SDK.

    Creating a homebrew SDK wouldn't violate any copyright.

    Which is why nobody has ever sued any of the homebrew SDKs that have been created for consoles for the last few decades.

    I'm sure your argument sounds good in your head, but not so good to anyone who understands these things.
     
    Last edited by smf, Mar 2, 2020
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  4. IndieDeveloper

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    Creating a homebrew SDK it's illegal, then it's up to the company to decide whether to open lawsuit or not.
    With an SDK you can develop applications, homebrew is homemade. now or if you use an official SDK or anofficial is always illegal, because you can't build applications without the proper license
     
  5. Goku1992A

    Goku1992A GBAtemp Maniac
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    I'll give you an example in WWE games they have thier creative suite online where you get to download other people's characters. Trust me I know what you are saying but nowadays they try to tie the game down with an internet connection. I think its BS but that's how they are doing things
     
  6. azoreseuropa

    azoreseuropa GBAtemp Legend
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    Thank you. And that's why online doesn't mean anything to me at all. Thanks for your sharing. :)
     
  7. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    No, you're lying again.

    Creating homebrew with official SDK is illegal for us because we don't have permission to distribute the library code.

    If you write your own library from scratch and don't include anything copyrightable then there is no problem.

    It's the entire reason the xbins web site was created, to host binaries compiled with official tools. Homebrew built with open source SDKs is not a problem at all.

    I don't know why you're trolling saying it's illegal, especially as you are pretending that you're capable of developing an exploit.
     
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  8. azoreseuropa

    azoreseuropa GBAtemp Legend
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    If it is illegal then why is it existing ? They dont allow it ? Then they are illegal for allowing it to exist. :) :creep:
     
  9. IndieDeveloper

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    Where I said I was capable of developing an exploit ? ^^ Anywhere
    Where did I say I'm interested in developing an exploit?
    I've explained it to you too many times, now I'm tired and I'll tell you the last time : you can't develop your own development KIT and use it to develop applications and run them on a third-party owned console (SONY in this case).
    uuumh, I want to make a copy of the keys of your house, but without using the original ohohoh you can not.
    Laws are basic and very clear. you can't create what you want, publish it and release apps that will then run on ps4.
    I'll take you by the example of the company where I work . Do you know Micron Technology?
    Well we have our own development kits for programming our hardware equipment. You can't (you generic) develop your own kit ( SDK) and make changes or other actions, it's ILLEGAL and Micron would open a lawsuit against you. This works in all multinationals.
    But I'll say again that it doesn't mean I agree, I'm interested in the PS4 scene, as I was at PS3.
    I have the skills to develop homebrew, I raise the fuss to clarify and unravel what the devs currently working on the PS4 scene hide with big bullshit: we're developing SDKs and we're against piracy etc etc hot water discovery : developing an unauthorized development kit is PIRACY .And the release of this SDK does not bring improvements to the scene, because homebrew-dev are not interested in developing on 5.05, if anyone had been really interested there was the publicly leaked Sony SDK (4.50) and looking good you will also find newer stuff like this :
    [​IMG]
    Sony will never go looking for who will develop homebrew, but who will develop and release exploit/keys .
    Homebrew developers will come out when an exploit/hack on newer firmware comes out.
    I repeat, the story of the SDK that is legal etc etc is bullshit .
    I think I've finished talking to you, I've explained to you in detail the scenario and its operation, open your eyes more than to believe that it's as simple as you think.
     
    Last edited by IndieDeveloper, Mar 3, 2020
  10. Darksabre72

    OP Darksabre72 Blue Falcon
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    playing the waiting game really hurts, but i understand
     
  11. godreborn

    godreborn Retired
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    yeah, it does, but there are other systems to toy with, just can't play any ps4 exclusives. the only two I care about are kingdom hearts 3 and final fantasy vii remake. however, I'd never update for one or two games. I'd regret it.
     
  12. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    https://gbatemp.net/threads/ps4-6-70-research.551641/page-3#post-8963241

    Hopefully this IS the last time you post such lies. SONY don't own my console, although

    There is no law against releasing a set of libraries that would allow you to write apps for a PS4. None, absolutely none.

    You are confused with DMCA, what you are describing is equivalent to an exploit for the PS4 & not an SDK (which is basically a x64 compiler and some libraries).

    Everything you post is bullshit.

    I hope you have finished as you're either incredibly wrong or just lying & I am too bored to continue trying to work it out.
     
    Last edited by smf, Mar 4, 2020
  13. IndieDeveloper

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    @smf
    I promised not to answer you again, but if I read inaccurate things again I have to correct you.
    In this post https://gbatemp.net/threads/ps4-6-70-research.551641/page-3#post-8963241, I have absolutely not said to be able to develop an exploit, I am not a pentester and I am not an exploit-dev, number one.
    I am interested in releasing a new exploit for the development of homebrew on newer firmware.
    SONY owns your console, it's owned by SONY in some respects. You can't develop a development kit and develop applications/tools to your liking, period.
    I'm not confused at all, you are the one who is and you don't know what we're talking about. What do you do in life, can I know? My work give me these skills to be able to explain to you what I said days ago and I'm continuing to tell you.
    I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm posting bullshit. When I support something, I don't say it at random but with good motives/evidence, and I've given you a lot of it.
    I'm not lying or anything.I hope that's the last message I need to send to you.
     
  14. MostlyUnharmful

    MostlyUnharmful GBAtemp Fan
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    Sure I can, and it was done numerous times for different consoles or devices, again and again, otherwise you can be sure that Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft or Apple wouldn't had waited a picosecond to parachute their legal teams to protect their precious IP (and I use the word intellectual near property with the highest disdain and scorn).

    Now, if you want to talk about their draconian licenses that they want me to abide when I purchase their DRM ridden products, show me my signed contract instead of the shrink-wrapped one.
     
    Last edited by MostlyUnharmful, Mar 5, 2020
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  15. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    How can you release a new exploit, if you haven't developed an exploit? You either don't understand the meanings of words, or you're redefining them to win an argument.

    Sony retain certain IP rights that they own with the console, but none of them extend to a compiler and libraries that are stored on another computer. How exactly can a source file that I have created myself have anything to do with Sony?

    You are confused and have clearly proved you don't know what you're talking about

    No, you can't know. For a start that is quite creepy, secondly just because you claim you have skills through your work doesn't mean that I believe you for one second. I'm certainly not going to prove to you anything about my identity either, so it's pointless.

    I have no idea whether you believe your evidence or not, but it's clearly not based on anything factual.

    I hope it is too, although I doubt you will change your mind so you are likely to keep spouting this rubbish.

    Going back to your original points.

    Creating an SDK isn't an excuse for piracy.
    Creating an SDK from scratch isn't illegal, because there are no laws that prevent it. An SDK doesn't circumvent any DRM or copy controls.

    I figure that at this point you might have no idea what an SDK is, or the applicable laws that would cover it, or probably a combinations of the two & you're so arrogant that you are unwilling to change your incorrect position.

    Or you're trolling.
     
  16. dannyb1

    dannyb1 Member
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    Soooooooooo, is it worth staying on 5.05.?
     
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  17. IndieDeveloper

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    You're forcing me to answer you, because you're trying to pass me off as a fool.
    I AM INTERESTED IN RELEASING AN EXPLOIT ON NEWER FIRMWARE, AN EXPLOIT DEVELOPED BY OTHER DEV, NOT BY ME. I DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS AND THE INTEREST IN DEVELOPING ONE.
    Sony owns your console, stop.
    You can't develop personal material and publish it, because you don't have the rights, so technically it's ILLEGAL.
    Otherwise there would be no devkit, testkit and SDK etc etc.
    But they would release a press release declaring the opening to development on SONY consoles etc etc.
    I have shown you with concrete evidence and quotes from SONY's ToS that it is illegal to technically develop SDK (that's the topic in question).
    In order:
    SDK self development is illegal regarding SONY, so illegal is piracy.
    Creating/Reproducing or anything else that has to do with SONY is illegal.
    I'm not trolling, I know exactly what SDK is, stop discrediting without bringing concrete evidence.

    Bye my friend

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    My personal opinion? It's not helpful to stay on 5.05
    Update your console and play newest games, otherwise if you're not interested in recent games stay on 5.05.
    But at the moment what the PS4 scene offers is nothing.
    It's a fate of homebrew-enabler that disappears at the console shutdown, so little stuff unfortunately.
     
  18. Deleted User

    Deleted User Newbie

    Yeah i hate to say it but indiedeveloper is right. It’s just not plausible we will see it put to the test but I could see a scenario. So if you remember at first on wii u scene we could run vwii hacks. Imagine if something similar happened with ps5? Now the homebrew sdk wouldn’t necessarily be the major deal here. Going back to what I mentioned earlier right now part of what like insulates people is that small user base on 5.05. Sony is not losing much and someone trying to profit can’t profit much. But if you get that type of opening that really expanded userbase and said homebrew developer either did a. Sell his homebrew sdk software b. Ask for patreon donations or c. Attempted to use it to promote and monetize a youtube channel (prob the hardest but depending on what they pulled off tis possible) and had wild success I could see sony protecting their ip yes and suing the group or individual. Another scenario is of course a kexploit on higher firmwares. Either way could significantly increase userbase and get sony’s attention.

    believe you me they definitely watch the scene. Heck they recently had interns looking for fake pkg links

    yeah i hear the point that sdk has been done in the past without reprisal. The times they are a changing. Ya see the internet is amazing and technology evolves. What was once something only a select few may have taken advantage of in times past has evolved thanks to scene site and tutorial videos and just the nature of the internet. The companies have responded with IRONCLAD tos which specifically touch upon things like an sdk. I cannot stress that enough. Now this is not how law works. The courts decide law. But one of the issues that depresses me is the courts generally do side with the corporations. See the link about graf i posted above. All in all it will come down to money. If one used the sdk to port some sort of homebrew version of psnow with ps3 capability come now. Do you really think sony would not come a knocking? So there are certain limits. Another funny example is flappy bird. Something which was insanely lucrative. Picture a similar simple piece of software coded with said sdk and the dev charges $2.99 and sells a million copies. Quite plausible. Right now it isn’t. Sure. Delicate time for the scene. Basically my two cents is as long as someone doesn’t use it for greed or try and toy with sony ip with it they should be able to get away with it. The golden age of the internet is over though folks. Vpn not safe. Many things around you track you. Time to wake up.
     
    Last edited Mar 6, 2020
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  19. IndieDeveloper

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    @seanp2500 Your point of view is amazing . Why doesn't SONY do anything against the development of this self-development SDK or even against released exploits?
    Simple, developing this SDK would allow homebrew development up to max 5.05 and also would not harm SONY at economic loss; would not increase the number of users. Same for exploits and kexploit. He never moved a finger because they were always released after the patch on the latest firmware and this makes you think a lot.
     
  20. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    You're doing a good enough job on your own.

    So you want someone to develop it but you want to upload it onto the internet for them?

    WHY?

    They don't, I paid for it.

    I can develop whatever homebrew I like, it's perfectly legal. There are no laws that prevent it. FACT

    Your argument makes no sense. There were no exploits before the PS4 was released, so Sony have to provide those kits. Plus homebrew doesn't get you on PSN or bluray disc.

    Only in your logical fallacy land.

    I have asked you repeatedly to show where I can fetch them from to validate what you're saying. You refused.


    Wrong on both counts. Creating homebrew is perfectly legal.
    Even if it was illegal, it doesn't mean it's piracy as that is used to describe copyright violations.
    Homebrew doesn't violate anyones copyright.

    No. Copying anything copyrightable by Sony, passing off their trademarks or violating their patents is illegal.
    Releasing exploits, like you want to do, is illegal in certain countries though.

    If homebrew didn't require modifying the console, then it would be perfectly legal as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade shows.

    You've done a good enough job discrediting yourself. Your arguments betray your lack of knowledge on many aspects of the law and software development.

    I've provided more than enough evidence that you should be doubting your own argument by now & yet you aren't. Which is why I suspected you of trolling, but it could be arrogance.

    Still done without reprisal, you know why? Because there is no law that prevents it. If you think I'm wrong then show me how an sdk can be illegal. With actual laws, not things you made up.

    Sony stopped suing over exploits during the PS3 days when they realised it made no difference to the availability of exploits and just cost them court fees. They still go after people selling modded consoles though.

    Sony & Microsoft (especially Microsoft) have done a pretty good job of securing their consoles and any exploits that exist can be patched and new ones will be harder to find. That is why we are stuck on 5.05 for the moment, it's much more effective than trying to sue anyone.
     
    Last edited by smf, Mar 7, 2020
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