Let's figure out something that only streaming games could do

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Presently we are all watching Stadia, which is the latest attempt at streaming computer games to people and in this case it is Google's turn, be a complete disaster. This is to the surprise of nobody that even vaguely knows how computers and games work, seemingly save perhaps those people that funded the thing. Maybe it is a long play to be the one leading the dance if it all manages to actually kick off but right now... yeah.

However a comment on another thread got me curious
What it needs is a killer app : that one exclusive game that otherwise couldn't be possible. A game that fully tells the world 'screw your scepticism because I Am Here To Stay'.

What might this be? What could be done that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for conventional game hardware in consumer friendly packages to pull off that gamers either want, or don't necessarily right now realise they want?

The immediate thought for most is they can have the absolute screamingly fastest setup available and push the kind of pixels in real time that consoles and most PCs can only dream of, but make it available for the masses. We have seen stuff like this before, indeed anybody that ever heard the phrase "arcade perfect home port" experienced a version of that -- arcade machines by virtue of their continuous income could push the hardware boat out massively in a way that home consoles (PCs of the time were not quite games machines) could never compete with, or if they could then it was only after a few years and then it starts all over again as the state of the art has moved on further.
However that is boring so I want specifics if we are doing that, limited to what the real world or near future likely provides -- a 8 CPU and thus 64 core and 16 card SLI setup might be possible in theory but it still limits what can be done practically in the modern world.

I saw in another discussion about upcoming flight sims possibly storing terabytes remotely such that full recreations of real world locations to continent level is an option. Doing that locally is tricky for the time being if 90 gigs is pushing the envelope for a single game install... however storage costs are dropping all the time so might that catch up before long?
Similarly would that be all that interesting? As it stands procedural generation can give me an awful lot if I so desire, and do it in an absolutely tiny package (the original Elite from 1984 could give me a massive universe to explore, though they were told to limit it more than they could theoretically have done, and more directed stuff can do better still).
Some devs regard procedural generation, and the AI that follows from it, as a dirty word or a false promise* (I would probably consider them incompetent or uninspired but we can skip that one for now), there are however still practical limitations to the concept and a bit of human touch still appreciated for the time being. I don't know what the level size limit for the human mind actually is (number of friends has things like Dunbar's number, it is also generally assumed most humans don't think much beyond the horizon but we can probably recall more games maps than that, and characters from works too). This also says nothing about what benefits from more complexity there might be; "I don't have to visit it, but the option being there is enough". Similarly we can achieve that on a normal system now without needing some kind of remote processing or storage.

Maybe instead of graphics we could have AI worth noting. I don't have my own supercomputer but I can talk to one to play chess that will beat even the best humans going if I so desired. Chess is not really the end goal but such things could happily be expanded. Related at this point would be discussions of game complexity, recent efforts with machine learning to produce computers that can compete at Go and things like the old XBLA Magic the Gathering AI being reasonable jumping off points.

*Such things will eventually do far more than today. As it stands AI procedurally generated music, voice overs, news stories, behaviours, levels and more are all things doing very well. Now while story scripts still leave something to be desired it is generally a sooner rather than later anticipation here (most news stories being written by AI are usually simple here is a change in the market, here are some other changes, here are some things that happened leading up to this, which is all some news sites really need for a lot of stories) then song lyrics will probably be the first.
Instead of AI maybe we see some human actors be more viable than they are right now? Though again is that not already something of an option? Surely the likes of World of Warcraft or Eve Online could host a human controlled something but have them paid to run a shop or something slightly tedious.

Multiplayer is a thing here. As it stands for games like Civilisation we have seen some fairly creative ways to essentially do a play by email and not allow people the option to cheese the system taking the best turn they can (start of turn, send scout in every direction loading each time, pick best course of action as a result of info gleaned and send that save back to the server). Being remote then you could consider it essentially immune to this outside of someone hacking in which already is a rare problem, not to mention limiting options for sniffing data they are theoretically not supposed to have.
Somewhat amusingly then for lag (more on that later) if everybody is effectively in the same bit of system memory then it somewhat turns the ping negation and other aspects of "the internet sucks" on their head, obviously still got some problems with lag to work around (maybe some kind of AI takeover if ping drops too much) but it is a different take on the matter and solves several problems all at once. Might it be how we reasonably get 1000 vs 1000 player servers? One idea that has consistently floated around is the option for 1000 people to all join at a given time and recreate a large battle, even if one player ends up being little more than a gunner responsible for a small section of a ship in that particular instance.
It might also allow for some measure of control enough that gambling and other real money going in and out to users becomes a proper option. People have been saying if people can earn a living from games then that will change everything for many years now (far from the first but a good source might be those things for 2012's Diablo 3 with its "real money auction house") but it still remains true that if many people can then that will change things.

We have seen data from fighting game tournaments be fed back into games to improve AI there. Mega CPU plus it all being local to it could make for some serious tweaks here, and possibly some kind of push back/balancing/openings for an interesting story twist if it thinks things are going wrong (we already see stuff like the left4dead director). Theoretically such things could already be done (input + time of input is not lots of data) but I am sure the folks that spend time contemplating metrics are giddy with anticipation of what such services could allow them to do. If nothing else stats + human "invisible" moderation + instantaneous patching means exploits might not propagate far; if player times/damage/funds have achieved these results outside of expected variables then oh no look your glitch gun broke.

Combining with the memory above then maybe we see some more persistent world stuff rather than endless replayed instances. Though frankly that could be done now in some ways (see minecraft)... that said combined with the large level stuff from earlier then maybe not. I would not mind seeing a true survival game like this, especially if pinging out saw my character go AI and attempt to return home/finish the task within my capabilities as it were.

So starting with the assumption that streaming allows those doing streaming games a complete control of essentially a supercomputer, one somewhat immune to hackers, one with only the lag to remote players (which could be made low if certain expensive things are done) being the main issue then what could be achieved that presently is difficult, if not impossible, that would make for a far more compelling experience?
As part of this theorising I can allow some kind of lag negation; if they did it local to the town/city, or even better, then it would be more than acceptable, but that is actual investment and seemingly more than they care to do right here. We can also skip the "I don't own my games", "muh bandwidth caps" and "I want mods" type discussions as they are issues for some but not so very great when all is said and done (people already give their money to Steam for scarcely any better, such caps are a non issue in a lot of the world and *points at consoles*).
 

The Real Jdbye

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One thing worth noting is that a lot more game data and in some cases all of it could be loaded into RAM (as many clients on one server playing the same game could share that RAM, or at least the parts that are not dynamic), virtually eliminating loading times. That certainly would be a nice feature, but not a must have.

As mentioned, it would allow games to store and use huge amounts of data such as life-size maps.

Combine those two and you could potentially have an online game or MMO when the server and clients are in the same datacenter - this would allow for much larger amounts of data to be transferred between them much faster, which hypothetically could allow for the sort of online game that would just not be possible through normal means. For example, you could have every player loaded into memory and updated in realtime, something the server has to do anyway, it could simply pass that info along to the client without worrying about bandwidth and the client would in addition to that load in all the graphical data the server doesn't use. You could have a giant map with thousands of players' locations displayed in realtime, and the entire map (including all player/entity locations) could be loaded into memory shared between the clients, meaning there would never be any load screens or lag when moving between different sections of the map. this could for example be used in entirely new kinds of PVP games. That's just one possibility though, who knows what people could come up with.

In the end though it feels like it's going to end up like the Wii U gamepad or the DS/3DS dual screens. In theory it provides more possibilities but in practice hardly anything ends up using it in a way that is beneficial to the player. Sure having your inventory or map visible at all times is convenient but is it really any better than hitting a button to view them? The fraction of a second it saves you is too little to make a difference.
 
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the_randomizer

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Things that need to be done:

- Not charge old games full price
- Make bandwidth caps illegal
- Allow for games to be included in service fee
- Allow local downloading of games to HDD/SSD
- Not locking mobile gaming to one specific device on launch
- Not claiming to have "negative" input lag

Once conditions are met, then will I ever consider it.
 

raxadian

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By the calculations done by some people in Ars Technica, streaming Google Stadia games is more expensive that watching Netflix shows 24 hours a day. And also consumes way more bandwidth.

It also doesn't help Internet in many parts of the USA sucks.
 
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Viri

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Things that need to be done:

- Not charge old games full price
- Make bandwidth caps illegal
- Allow for games to be included in service fee
- Allow local downloading of games to HDD/SSD
- Not locking mobile gaming to one specific device on launch
- Not claiming to have "negative" input lag

Once conditions are met, then will I ever consider it.
But they already won, they have "gender neutral controllers"!
 

CORE

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You mean controllers that can't be repaired or fixed in any way. Wow, how innovative.

Why cant they be repaired?

@Viri What is so Gender Neutral about a Controller?

The Dreamcast / 360 / Wii/GameBoy and many other Consoles are Gender Neutral if ur referring to Colour?

I have to say I like GameCube and the Purple Look it looked so unique at the time and my actual size promo cardboard box with VHS inside.
 
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CORE

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Cheap parts, etc



Cant Repair it then Free Replacement they can F**king Afford it!

Ridiculous a F**king Dremel!

Even Cleaning is necessary sometimes due to sweat build up or worse sticky hands buttons get stuck.

It is this proprietary only we can repair it Bastardry why I dont use Apple Google just another F**kwit.

Again my Appliance I Bought it I Own It.
 
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the_randomizer

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Cant Repair it then Free Replacement they can F**king Afford it!

Ridiculous a F**king Dremel!

Even Cleaning is necessary sometimes due to sweat build up or worse sticky hands buttons get stuck.

It is this proprietary only we can repair it Bastardry why I dont use Apple Google just another F**kwit.

Again my Appliance I Bought it I Own It.

I feel the same with games, I downloaded it, I bought it physically, I can do whatever the hell I want. Stadia can die in a dumpster fire.
 

leon315

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People laud 5G like if it's the holy grail. It won't be. It will be expensive, and far behind what a wired connection can do. Most gear today has support for 5G but don't have the means to take full advantage of it.

It's impossible to stream demanding games, unless you have a server across the street from you.

they should have gone for a more modest setup, Full HD stream, and more paused games. Adventure, point-and-click, puzzle games, etc. They would have no problems serving those games by stream.
the early 5G service will still provided through fiber connections, here in small town where i live (5000people) i can reach 100mb/s, and speed could go up to 300 in big cities, and will covered ur home through 5Ghz wifi which is commonly around in thw wild for years.
I knew 5G is not 5Ghz wifi but hey, let's make ONE STEP PER TIME!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Make bandwidth caps illegal
i think it's just murican crap, here in EU we don't have data cap. i almost felt sorry for u...
 

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I disagree with the initial premise. A "best game"/killer app is something that would only sway hardcore gamers - the type that would moan over +50ms of latency (3 frames worth). If you look at mobile gaming, the killer app is the games are cheap and accessible, not that Fruit Ninja or Angry Birds are only possible on phone hardware. So in a similar way if Stadia (or another game streaming service) is to succeed they need to convince people that the convenience is there. The merits of not installing games and being able to play on weaker hardware is probably going to be enough for most people if the price is right and the tech works well enough.
 
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the_randomizer

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the early 5G service will still provided through fiber connections, here in small town where i live (5000people) i can reach 100mb/s, and speed could go up to 300 in big cities, and will covered ur home through 5Ghz wifi which is commonly around in thw wild for years.
I knew 5G is not 5Ghz wifi but hey, let's make ONE STEP PER TIME!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


i think it's just murican crap, here in EU we don't have data cap. i almost felt sorry for u...

I mean, I can get unlimited, but I shouldn't have to pay extra. My other points still stand, lag, not being able to keep games, no support for more than one Android device on launch. Google Stadia is shit.
 
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FAST6191

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No Piracy.
I steal a credit card. Piracy away.

Things that need to be done:

- Not charge old games full price
- Make bandwidth caps illegal
- Allow for games to be included in service fee
- Allow local downloading of games to HDD/SSD
- Not locking mobile gaming to one specific device on launch
- Not claiming to have "negative" input lag

Once conditions are met, then will I ever consider it.
We are not looking for the failures of Google's efforts, such things are evident and are discussed extensively elsewhere and can be dismissed trivially for this (though I am not sure what the local downloading thing is in this -- someone could run a mixed service if they wanted to). We are looking for what the best case tech for a game streaming service can do, mainly by virtue of allowing many many players at once, being somewhat hacker proof, not having to roll out updates to consumers but instead possibly in real time, and by having more processing power than most other things going plus all the other stuff I mentioned in the opening post.


I disagree with the initial premise. A "best game"/killer app is something that would only sway hardcore gamers - the type that would moan over +50ms of latency (3 frames worth). If you look at mobile gaming, the killer app is the games are cheap and accessible, not that Fruit Ninja or Angry Birds are only possible on phone hardware. So in a similar way if Stadia (or another game streaming service) is to succeed they need to convince people that the convenience is there. The merits of not installing games and being able to play on weaker hardware is probably going to be enough for most people if the price is right and the tech works well enough.
If the servers were located in your city (or better) then latency would be far less of a concern (you can get LAN speeds/pings at a fairly decent distance, and probably dodge dropped packets so much), however that requires localised infrastructure investment. I would similarly say the niche hardcore are not necessarily the main audience -- everybody likes tetris and farmville really (granted I preferred the latter when it was called Sim City 2000 but semantics) and you could do something with that kind of appeal, but at the same time only really able to be accomplished with what is essentially a supercomputer with no internal latency and all the other stuff mentioned above with regards to abilities to keep secrets and monitor play. Such a thing from where I sit could be as monumental as 3d cards and online play.
Weak hardware playing the latest and greatest is certainly a nice perk if they can get it working but that is boring to consider (or at least the base case is entirely entertained within the non bracketed part of this).
 

KiiWii

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No Piracy.
Rampant piracy.

I think perhaps bringing experiences rather than “games” could be the next big thing, or killer thing for these sorts of platforms.

Something like a “VR” (and or non VR) Westworld, something almost indistinguishable from the real world (thanks to huge data banks streaming it to you) that you can join in on at any point, assume a role and explore anything and everything.

Also; I have been saying for ages that zombies have been done to death, through this and the last generation of gaming, so something decently dinosaur themed wouldn’t go amiss.... KeK.
 

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We have seen data from fighting game tournaments be fed back into games to improve AI there.
There is nothing that streaming adds to this. Yes, you can use multiple powerful PCs for fast training of a neural network, but the result is just an array of weights that can be used just nearly as well in a single GPU downloaded by a player. Assuming someone is going to put enough work into a games' AI to even necessitate running it in a GPU, which is far from where we are.

as many clients on one server playing the same game could share that RAM, or at least the parts that are not dynamic
You can probably improve player count a little, but cache coherence will quickly limit the idea.
 

The Real Jdbye

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There is nothing that streaming adds to this. Yes, you can use multiple powerful PCs for fast training of a neural network, but the result is just an array of weights that can be used just nearly as well in a single GPU downloaded by a player. Assuming someone is going to put enough work into a games' AI to even necessitate running it in a GPU, which is far from where we are.


You can probably improve player count a little, but cache coherence will quickly limit the idea.
The data would only need to be updated once per tick by the backend and the clients would simply read from it. I believe cache coherence should not be an issue in that case right?
 

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