Some Dutch guy wants to legally change of age

[Hanafuda]

It's not the same argument. He's asking to literally bend time to defy his age, something that has literally no scientific backing in any fields. There's actual medical research to prove and understand how being transgender works and why it's a real thing. These aren't the same thing.
One can draw a line in the sand between this and being trans without invalidating the trans community.

Nothing conclusive. If there is, post it. All I've seen are studies that, "suggest that," the brains of transgenders do things like the desired gender, or a genetic trait has been identified that, "could be," etc etc. And its clear that these studies were conducted with the specific purpose of finding such evidence - confirmation bias is an issue. You used the word, "prove,"... I don't think we're there, at all.

I got this from an earlier post of mine, too much trouble to re-type it:

The idea of "sex" and "gender" being different, distinguishable things never existed in Western culture until the 1970's, and then only among radical feminists. Before that a person might be a homosexual male, or a homosexual female, but a person's sex was based on biology and the use of the word gender was mostly confined to Spanish class when you were taught about how to use "las" and "los." Whether you believe in this transgender theory or not, if you discussed this with anyone before 1970 they would think you're fucking nuts. After 1970 until about 10-15 years ago, only 90%+ of the people you spoke to would think you're fucking nuts.

Please read about "Sexologist" John Money and how he invented the modern usage of the word "gender." Until mid-70's sociologists latched onto Money's theory, humans with a penis were males, and humans with vaginas were female, PERIOD. Next, read about how Dr. Money totally fucked up David Reimer in childhood with a sex reassignment attempt in infancy, took photos of Reimer and his twin brother in nude, simulated sex acts as small children, etc., and how Reimer eventually committed suicide because of his life being ruined by the man who came up with this mess of thought. This was the origin of transgender theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories. However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Reimer said that Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Reimer said that Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".

 

[Xzi]

What about the genetics causes people to age slower?

Err...in basic terms, I think it'd be a few specific genes: the ones that determine hair loss likelihood/age of occurrence, that determine number/likelihood of wrinkles, and that determine likelihood of sickness/disease. A big part of why natural deaths can occur anywhere from 50-122 years old (yes there was a guy who died in 1997 that lived to 122). The two other big factors, as I said, likely being diet and exercise, which are informed by your environment and upbringing.

 

[KingVamp]

It is one thing to talk about age discrimination, but this is just disingenuous.

I can see someday people being able to actually change sex. Living 1000 years, is living 1000 years. Even if you feel or look otherwise. Not going to be able to change time itself.
Better off arguing "trans-species" than "trans-age/time".

 

[Dust2dust]

Since Harper, Canada is considering changing legal age for retirement from 65 to 67

I don't think it's just Canada. It's a worldwide trend. People are living longer, and there is a high demand for qualified workers, usually not being able to fulfill completely. So it only makes sense to keep the people working a couple more years. But I agree it shouldn't be forced by law.

 

[grossaffe]

Err...in basic terms, I think it'd be a few specific genes: the ones that determine hair loss likelihood/age of occurrence, that determine number/likelihood of wrinkles, and that determine likelihood of sickness/disease. A big part of why natural deaths can occur anywhere from 50-122 years old (yes there was a guy who died in 1997 that lived to 122). The two other big factors, as I said, likely being diet and exercise, which are informed by your environment and upbringing.

My point is that genes don't simply exist and create an end-product. They affect your biological process. If you can figure out HOW they affect the biological process, it could potentially be used to create drugs or treatments to mimic those processes to slow the aging of people not blessed by those genes. That's what I mean when I say 'genetics' is just the start of an answer.

 

[Xzi]

My point is that genes don't simply exist and create an end-product. They affect your biological process. If you can figure out HOW they affect the biological process, it could potentially be used to create drugs or treatments to mimic those processes to slow the aging of people not blessed by those genes. That's what I mean when I say 'genetics' is just the start of an answer.

Well, I did say it was just one of three parts that seem to be obvious contributing factors to apparent age. I don't think we're far off from being able to reliably manipulate/change genes, at least in early infancy, so we'll see how big a role genetics really play at that point.

 

[grossaffe]

That's because the other side is based on nothing and doesn't deserve my respect.

Sounds awfully closed-minded for someone asking others to be open-minded of their own non-standard status. Don't have to go back very far to see opinions like those expressed in the above quote being the standard in relation to transsexuals.

 

[Song of storms]

Here’s the source so you, too, can laugh at this mess. No, it’s not April Fools again.

This is so unbelievably stupid, and a waste of funds and time. Not only that, but this buffoonish creep even tries to equate changing his age with trans people.

Old Man Yells At Cloud, Claiming He Is Not Old.

Good job for calling an harmless man that just wants to change his age of 20 years a "creep". I'm sure you know him well enough to use such a strong term.

He isn't one of those 30-something years old that claim to be a kid inside and wants to date other kids. He specifically said that he's limited when he says he's 69, for a good reason too. And all he wants to do is remove 20 years off his legal age.

Do women that undergo surgery to look younger are also "creeps"? He didn't even say a crazy number like wanting to be 18, or 28. He'll still be considered quite old at 49, so what's the real problem here? He even said that he's willing to renounce to his retirement money. And now you're all making fun of him? Calling him a creep? For something that literally affects you in 0 ways? Oh wait, it would mean more money to the Dutch government.

I said I wouldn't have posted in this section anymore but DAMN some of the post people make are just... dumb.

 

[dimmidice]

I doubt he really wants to do this. It's probably just a stunt for attention and to try and throw shade at transgenders.

There's still a difference between that field of research and what this man is asking and comparing it to. Just become someone ages differently, doesn't mean they can legally change their age based on that rate. One's own age is a measurement of time, not of their health. There's a complete difference here and these things are not comparable in any manner.

Exactly this. Health might vary between people, but we all age the exact same day. 1 year = 1 year regardless of how healthy you are. The only time someone should be able to have their age changed officially is if it turns out there was a mix up or something.

 

[The Catboy]

Sounds awfully closed-minded for someone asking others to be open-minded of their own non-standard status. Don't have to go back very far to see opinions like those expressed in the above quote being the standard in relation to transsexuals.

I understand that you are trying to play Devil's advocate and apply this notion that if one is acceptable, the other is inherently acceptable. But this would also require clumping in medical research to a fabrication. Age as previously stated is a measurement of time and nothing more. This is not an issue of identity, this is an argument against time itself and not comparable to gender. It's a broken argument right out of the gate and still requires actual proof to show how he can change time, without referring to the trans community as an argument.

 

[Chary]

Good job for calling an harmless man

He did this because women on Tinder aren't interested in 69 year old men. If he's trying to legally change his age, then he's trying to get around admitting his true age to women interested in dating him. That's deceitful. Not harmless.

Also. Lawsuit. That's kinda just wasting everyone's time and money on the matter, really. City now has to focus on a legal battle with a dude who wants his age down a few decades from his actual birth, and now they're going to have to spend resources combating it. That's not harmless either.

Ratelband says he wants to avoid age discrimination in society - especially on dating websites.

I'm sure you know him well enough to use such a strong term.

And you know him well enough to go out of your way to defend him, then? Hello, opinions can exist.

Do women that undergo surgery to look younger are also "creeps"?

No, unless they directly lie about their physical age when prompted by whoever they're in a relationship with. Which is what this man would ideally want to do.

For something that literally affects you in 0 ways?

Oh I guess now we can't comment on 99% of topics in this forum, since they might not personally affect us! Let's dare not have discussion on a GASP, discussion forum.

If he's facing issues due to age, then he should try to cobble together an actual case--one for discrimination.

If I'm 49, then I can buy a new house, drive a different car. When I'm 49, with the face I have, I will be in a luxurious position.

This comment seems more like trying to cling onto fading youth, and rather wanting to live it up like a middle age man, rather than a senior citizen. Which he is entirely free to do. He can drive whatever car he likes in his own freedom, no one is stopping him. He can buy all the homes he wants, no one is barring him from buying property at his age. He is free to date any woman who is interested in him as a person.

DAMN some of the post people make are just... dumb.

I'm sure you know me well enough to use such a strong term.

 

[grossaffe]

I understand that you are trying to play Devil's advocate and apply this notion that if one is acceptable, the other is inherently acceptable. But this would also require clumping in medical research to a fabrication. Age as previously stated is a measurement of time and nothing more. This is not an issue of identity, this is an argument against time itself and not comparable to gender. It's a broken argument right out of the gate and still requires actual proof to show how he can change time, without referring to the trans community as an argument.

Sex was a qualification of "were you born with a penis or a vagina" and nothing more.

And age is VERY often used in terms that aren't explicitly measures of time. For example, people talk about how being President ages a person. They're certainly not talking about how that person moves forward in time over the course of their term, as that is the same amount of time they progress when someone else is president. Or we talk about how Patrick Stewart stopped aging twenty years ago. And there's anti-aging cremes and such, and I don't think they'll claim that it causes you to travel back in time.

Now is this person trying to make a point about transgenderism/transsexualism? Probably. Take this as an opportunity to show how they are different. You are making some attempt, but thus far I don't think you have made very convincing arguments. You need to try to look at both issues with similar levels of skepticism and open-mindedness to be able to make reasonable comparisons and contrastions so that you can formulate an argument that can convince people that aren't already pre-disposed to your position.

I appreciate that you aren't taking this back-and-forth personally. And yes, there is a strong dose of Devil's advocation on my part. I like to try to get people to take a deeper look beyond their own viewpoints and perhaps a little introspection into their own. Or maybe I'm just a contrarian asshole.

 

[brickmii82]

This is amazing! I can change my legal age to 65 and start collecting Social Security!

 

[DarthDub]

This is amazing! I can change my legal age to 65 and start collecting Social Security!

Assuming they'll actually give it to you..

 

[Song of storms]

He did this because women on Tinder aren't interested in 69 year old men. If he's trying to legally change his age, then he's trying to get around admitting his true age to women interested in dating him. That's deceitful. Not harmless.

False. That's just one of the reasons. He said that he has more freedom, because he faces discrimination for his age even though he looks/acts much younger. It's even written in the article that, although the Dutch law says that employers can't discriminate on age, they still do.
Also, I see no point where someone should care about someone's age unless A) they're trying to hide the fact that they're a minor (and it's clearly not the case here) or B) the women would prefer him if he were 20 years younger because they could have a shot at hooking him up for life. And we're talking about "deceitful" acts on an app like Tinder where people photoshop their asses all the time to look thinner? Come on.

Also. Lawsuit. That's kinda just wasting everyone's time and money on the matter, really. City now has to focus on a legal battle with a dude who wants his age down a few decades from his actual birth, and now they're going to have to spend resources combating it. That's not harmless either.

Challenging the state whenever a citizen believes it did something wrong it's fair and rightful. Don't like it? Move to North Korea and beg Kim to not reunite with South Korea.

And you know him well enough to go out of your way to defend him, then? Hello, opinions can exist.

Having an opinion doesn't justify you from calling people names.

No, unless they directly lie about their physical age when prompted by whoever they're in a relationship with. Which is what this man would ideally want to do.

Again, he never claimed to want a relationship. He wants to find women on Tinder. Do you really not know how Tinder works? He's not going to marry them. And if he does, he has to be honest about it.

Oh I guess now we can't comment on 99% of topics in this forum, since they might not personally affect us! Let's dare not have discussion on a GASP, discussion forum.

Again, calling people names isn't having an opinion, it's just being an asshole. Don't make an hyperbole just because you can't understand this.

This comment seems more like trying to cling onto fading youth, and rather wanting to live it up like a middle age man, rather than a senior citizen. Which he is entirely free to do. He can drive whatever car he likes in his own freedom, no one is stopping him. He can buy all the homes he wants, no one is barring him from buying property at his age. He is free to date any woman who is interested in him as a person.

Do you have any idea of how different things work for a senior citizen? He can't drive any car he wants because insurance will have a say to this by increasing their quota (and insurances are BS worldwide, so much so that a guy from Canada legally changed gender from male to female just to save several hundred dollars a year for his). He can't buy a house because no bank will allow a man his age to get a mortgage, even if he's living a healthier life than many other, much younger people. If he's on Tinder, he clearly isn't interested in "dating".

I'm sure you know me well enough to use such a strong term.

Ignoring the fact that between "dumb" and "creep" there's an abyssal difference, I said that the posts are dumb, not that the people are. I didn't call people names, unlike you. Mine is an actual opinion.

 

[The Catboy]

Sex was a qualification of "were you born with a penis or a vagina" and nothing more.

And age is VERY often used in terms that aren't explicitly measures of time. For example, people talk about how being President ages a person. They're certainly not talking about how that person moves forward in time over the course of their term, as that is the same amount of time they progress when someone else is president. Or we talk about how Patrick Stewart stopped aging twenty years ago. And there's anti-aging cremes and such, and I don't think they'll claim that it causes you to travel back in time.

Now is this person trying to make a point about transgenderism/transsexualism? Probably. Take this as an opportunity to show how they are different. You are making some attempt, but thus far I don't think you have made very convincing arguments. You need to try to look at both issues with similar levels of skepticism and open-mindedness to be able to make reasonable comparisons and contrastions so that you can formulate an argument that can convince people that aren't already pre-disposed to your position.

I appreciate that you aren't taking this back-and-forth personally. And yes, there is a strong does of Devil's advocation on my part. I like to try to get people to take a deeper look beyond their own viewpoints and perhaps a little introspection into their own. Or maybe I'm just a contrarian asshole.

Yes, sex used to be the defining factor in gender and ultimately that has changed. Science has a tendency to change over time, this including the science of gender, sex, and sexuality. So yes, at one point my style of argument would have been the same ones used. But there's a difference between an argument made out of ignorance and what I am making. I am stating that age, as a measurement of time, can not be changed as it would require changing time itself. Now I understand your argument of appearance and health. I work with a man who's over 66 years and looks like he's in 40's and outworks people in their 20's. I also work with someone who is actually 56 and looks like he's in his 70's and is in horrible health. The years they were born didn't define who they are and doesn't define people in the same manner as gender/sexuality. Their ages are just the measure of time to when they were born, how they turned out was a factor both within and outside of their control, but aren't defined by when they were born.

He actually said in the interview, "We live in a time when you can change your name and change your gender. Why can't I decide my own age?" So this is indeed something he's comparing to being trans and also because he's upset that he can't get girls on Tinder. There's no real deeper argument here, his argument is literally, "They can do that, so I should be able to do this!" If there's an argument, it's that he thinks time and gender are somehow the same. Honestly we've spent more time talking about this than he's spent explaining his stance on the issue.
Personally, I think he should actually talk to tinder about having age be shown as optional. He's a very attractive and younger looking man. If his age being shown is the issue, then he should work with Tinder to see if they can come up with something better. His actions are just needlessly throwing an at-risk community under the bus for the sake of getting girls. His reason is an extreme reaction to not finding dates and something that could have been settled better.

 

[brickmii82]

False. That's just one of the reasons. He said that he has more freedom, because he faces discrimination for his age even though he looks/acts much younger. It's even written in the article that, although the Dutch law says that employers can't discriminate on age, they still do.
Also, I see no point where someone should care about someone's age unless A) they're trying to hide the fact that they're a minor (and it's clearly not the case here) or B) the women would prefer him if he were 20 years younger because they could have a shot at hooking him up for life. And we're talking about "deceitful" acts on an app like Tinder where people photoshop their asses all the time to look thinner? Come on.

Challenging the state whenever a citizen believes it did something wrong it's fair and rightful. Don't like it? Move to North Korea and beg Kim to not reunite with South Korea.




Having an opinion doesn't justify you from calling people names.


Again, he never claimed to want a relationship. He wants to find women on Tinder. Do you really not know how Tinder works? He's not going to marry them. And if he does, he has to be honest about it.

Again, calling people names isn't having an opinion, it's just being an asshole. Don't make an hyperbole just because you can't understand this.


Do you have any idea of how different things work for a senior citizen? He can't drive any car he wants because insurance will have a say to this by increasing their quota (and insurances are BS worldwide, so much so that a guy from Canada legally changed gender from male to female just to save several hundred dollars a year for his). He can't buy a house because no bank will allow a man his age to get a mortgage, even if he's living a healthier life than many other, much younger people. If he's on Tinder, he clearly isn't interested in "dating".


Ignoring the fact that between "dumb" and "creep" there's an abyssal difference, I said that the posts are dumb, not that the people are. I didn't call people names, unlike you. Mine is an actual opinion.

I thought you were conservative leaning. This opinion isn't really a conservative one.

 

[Song of storms]

I thought you were conservative leaning. This opinion isn't really a conservative one.

Where did you take that?

 

[brickmii82]

Where did you take that?

I think it was one of the Trump posts. Although tbf these days theyre all Trump posts ...

 

[deinonychus71]

I understand that you are trying to play Devil's advocate and apply this notion that if one is acceptable, the other is inherently acceptable. But this would also require clumping in medical research to a fabrication. Age as previously stated is a measurement of time and nothing more. This is not an issue of identity, this is an argument against time itself and not comparable to gender. It's a broken argument right out of the gate and still requires actual proof to show how he can change time, without referring to the trans community as an argument.

Even though I agree with you on the topic, I've had to deal part of the week with people who use nothing but ad hominem whenever you don't agree with them (the game & watch drama). It's annoying because it gets nowhere and nobody ever change their positions.
And actually for gender, the issue lie with the very definition of gender. If for someone gender = sex, then it's also a measurement that cannot be changed. Once you make them realize that gender is more than that, then it becomes easier to process.