What position or opinion have you changed your mind on, and why?

[appleburger]

This is a challenging ask for a political thread, but let's see if we can keep this discussion at a high level - meaning that if you want to debate a specific topic (say, abortion as an example) we already have threads with a plethora of responses for you to address. Let's not drag those same conversations into this thread, please. This thread is for discussing how/why we've changed our minds, so let's leave the active debate to the other threads; it'll help keep the forum organized and keep our conversations from de-railing.​

When I was younger, I was pretty staunchly against giving homeless people money. I never talked openly about it or anything, but I personally felt that giving the homeless money was enabling, and they had the tools necessary in my area to get help if they really needed it. I had failed to really think about the different ways people end up in that position and just hadn't bothered to really sit and think about it beyond 'irresponsibility leads to being homeless', ignorantly. One day I came across this youtube channel, 'Invisible People' - it got me thinking about the homeless in my area more, and I realized that I really didn't agree with my younger self at all anymore as time went on. I've since talked to many homeless people and handed out cash to them. A few months ago I had lunch with a recently homeless guy who lost his home, job and son all at once. His 12 year old son was shot in a drive-by shooting in another state - they drove down to the motel 6 across the street from me, and were working from scratch. He was showing me all of the evidence of his job, wife, life back at home, etc., and it was sad, because so many people wrote him off as another junkie that you could see the panic in him as he was trying to show that he's just a normal guy in a really shitty situation. It could have all been an elaborate ruse, but he didn't even ask me for cash - he genuinely seemed to just really need somebody to talk to without them assuming he's trash. I can't imagine the toll that must take mentally. I wound up just getting him some food while keeping the conversation going. He had a gameplan for getting back into a new home, and I haven't seen him around for months now, so maybe the plan worked out for them after all.

 

[LainaGabranth]

One of the problems with society at large is that there's a significant culture centered around demonizing the homeless, and it's one of the most horrific things our societies do. I used to think homelessness was entirely the fault of poor choices and laziness, but once I realized how genuinely privileged I was to hold such a stance, I found very quickly that homelessness is a deeply rooted systemic issue, one which can't possibly be fixed by stupid shit like criminalization. The way coastal states for example are criminalizing the hell out of homelessness to stop property values (which are already vastly inflated) from going lower is utterly inhumane, and constitutes a massive violation of human rights.

Imagine how much better things would be if we got rid of mansions and just made like, large communal housing districts with public access kitchens, laundromats, and the like. You'd have a tiny roof of your head and a room to yourself, with AC and basic necessities, and if you wanted something lavish you could work for it.

Poverty isn't a choice, and it's not a result of being stupid, lazy, and so on. It's an inherent trait of capitalism that is *necessitated* so that others can be rich. I think that's immoral.

 

[Flame]

Gay (LGBT) people. when I was younger you were taught by other people(kids) that being gay is bad. you want to make somebody mad, don't talk about they race, mum, how poor they are. tell them how gay they are. I thought this was normal to hate gay people. I mean its in the music too. growing up my fav rapper was 50 Cent. one of his lyrics is "You that faggot ass n**** trying to pull me back right?"

but as I grew up and experienced life I found out that gay people are the best people. most people who hate gay people is because of they own insecurities or its what they being taught in schools/Sunday schools which is written in a book which is over 2000 years old. this book also says the world is flat and the universe is 6000 years old. are those fact? no. so is gay people bad. no.

 

[AmandaRose]

Gay (LGBT) people. when I was younger you were taught by other people(kids) that being gay is bad. you want to make somebody mad, don't talk about they race, mum, how poor they are. tell them how gay they are. I thought this was normal to hate gay people. I mean its in the music too. growing up my fav rapper was 50 Cent. one of his lyrics is "You that faggot ass n**** trying to pull me back right?"

but as I grew up and experienced life I found out that gay people are the best people. most people who hate gay people is because of they own insecurities or its what they being taught in schools/Sunday schools which is written in a book which is over 2000 years old. this book also says the world is flat and the universe is 6000 years old. are those fact? no. so is gay people bad. no.

Forget the gays it's the Ts in LGBT you need to worry about

 

[CraddaPoosta]

Hating police officers.

When I was a teenager, like most of my friends in the mid-90's, it was all about FUCK THE POLICE.

We used to quote from the Nirvana biography and shout CORN ON THE COPS like Kurt used to do, because we were all stupid teenagers with flannel shirts tied around our waists, thinking anarchy was a good thing.

As I got older, I came to fully respect and back the blue. They do an absolutely thankless job, they are subject to massive unjustified hate and scorn, and would be the first people to actually come save someone if they needed help.

Not saying all cops are good, any more than I would say that all people in the military are good. There are always bad apples everywhere. Few other professions are held to this standard, though. I would posit that there are hundreds of thousands of public school teachers that are doing much, much more harm to children than all of the police officers in America, combined.

I back the blue, with pride.

 

[SAORIxMEGUMIN]

Hating police officers.

When I was a teenager, like most of my friends in the mid-90's, it was all about FUCK THE POLICE.

We used to quote from the Nirvana biography and shout CORN ON THE COPS like Kurt used to do, because we were all stupid teenagers with flannel shirts tied around our waists, thinking anarchy was a good thing.

As I got older, I came to fully respect and back the blue. They do an absolutely thankless job, they are subject to massive unjustified hate and scorn, and would be the first people to actually come save someone if they needed help.

Not saying all cops are good, any more than I would say that all people in the military are good. There are always bad apples everywhere. Few other professions are held to this standard, though. I would posit that there are hundreds of thousands of public school teachers that are doing much, much more harm to children than all of the police officers in America, combined.

I back the blue, with pride.

The best way IMO is to not lean too heavy in either direction for a large group of people or organization unless it is blatantly obvious they are all are doing a certain thing. It would be the same as saying a group or organization is good or bad because you know a portion of that entire group is good or bad.

 

[AmandaRose]

One of the problems with society at large is that there's a significant culture centered around demonizing the homeless, and it's one of the most horrific things our societies do. I used to think homelessness was entirely the fault of poor choices and laziness, but once I realized how genuinely privileged I was to hold such a stance, I found very quickly that homelessness is a deeply rooted systemic issue, one which can't possibly be fixed by stupid shit like criminalization. The way coastal states for example are criminalizing the hell out of homelessness to stop property values (which are already vastly inflated) from going lower is utterly inhumane, and constitutes a massive violation of human rights.

Imagine how much better things would be if we got rid of mansions and just made like, large communal housing districts with public access kitchens, laundromats, and the like. You'd have a tiny roof of your head and a room to yourself, with AC and basic necessities, and if you wanted something lavish you could work for it.

Poverty isn't a choice, and it's not a result of being stupid, lazy, and so on. It's an inherent trait of capitalism that is *necessitated* so that others can be rich. I think that's immoral.

Totally and if every Millionaire in the world donated the small amount of say £10 or the equivalent for each country then poverty would be a thing of the past. The £10 would make zero difference to the Millionaire they probably make that in less than 10 seconds from interest from thier bank account and it would make a huge difference to all the poor homeless people of the world.

 

[LainaGabranth]

Totally and if every Millionaire in the world donated the small amount of say £10 or the equivalent for each country then poverty would be a thing of the past. The £10 would make zero difference to the Millionaire they probably make that in less than 10 seconds from interest from thier bank account and it would make a huge difference to all the poor homeless people of the world.

I have a much more effective strategy for public utility, involving everyone with a net worth over $5 million and enough guillotines.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

I have a much more effective strategy for public utility, involving everyone with a net worth over $5 million and enough guillotines.

Yes, screw all the people who worked hard and sacrificed to build a small company that supports themselves and a dozen workers and those workers' families. Or the farmers growing our food whose assets can easily go north of $10 million.

Just starting a career at 23, and sacrificing to max out a yearly 401K contribution with an average 8% return for 40 years so you can begin thinking about retirement at 63 will put you at the rich people are bad measurement.

Better to just be a bitter person living in mom's basement complaining online than making oneself a useful member of society.

 

[LainaGabranth]

I think it is quite virtuous for SScorpio to say he'd never take back anything stolen from him. Truly, a pacifist we can all look up to.

 

[Taleweaver]

I used to think that Trump was all talk and achieved nothing Then he incited a riot in the capital and I realised he at least achieved that.

And perhaps because of the anthics of the former, I tended to respect Boris Johnson. I didn't agree on brexit (still don't), but I somehow thought that he could at least find an agreement. And he did...
...which he attacked himself straight away, and pretended never to have agreed to it less than a year later.


As for more personal views: unions. Like...WTF? I was raised with the idea that they came up for employees, made sure wages were fair and the workload balanced. But on my first job, I at one point was pointed out that my colleague (still by far the laziest dude I've ever seen) was a union worker. Workload was little, yes, but I had three french colleagues (I also learned later that lazy dude had a Dutch mother...despite that, he never ever spoke a word in Dutch) for a 50-50 split work job -> I did as much (and more) than those three combined.
After some years I stopped my monthly contributions to the union. When they called me (when I was at the office, no less), I told them I was disgusted by some of their people's (lack of) work ethics.

Later I switched jobs (also partially because of dude, but that's another story). This was a new company that split off from a notoriously union-heavy company. With the former experience, I waved them off when they came to introduce themselves. However, workload continuously rised until the point where it was unworkable. I still can't bring myself to reach out to them, though.

On current job, I hear about how the union is simply against every attempt at innovation whatsoever. No agreements, no own demands, no responsibility...they're just "against" everything. To the point where my colleagues tend to dream of just proposing the opposite of what they want. Except they manage to be against proposal A and the opposite proposal as well.
This time I would've gone to them...but the unions are about all sorts of departments except mine. Besides: if they're against cameras aimed at the cash registers to ensure stealing doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum that this is invasion of privacy. Would make sense...but the job's on the airport: those guys monitor pretty much everyone 24/7.
So I don't think a "too much work" argument is going to get through to these clowns.

 

[Jayro]

I was raised in conservative, christian households. I was told to hate gays, hate mexicans, vote red, and worship God.

But once I got out on my own, I realized how fucked up all that shit is. Why was I supposed to hate people I never even knew? Why vote for people that spew hatred from their hearts? Why worship some narcissistic space ghost? Now that I'm older and wiser, I've changed my mind on ALL of that negative stuff. I've realized 99% of ALL religions are bulllshit, conservatism is backwards-thinking and has no place in the modern world, and I'd rather love people than hate on them.

People can change, they just have to want to change. I had to unlearn so much racist bullshit, I still stereotype stuff without thinking sometimes, but I'm still learning. Never stop learning.

 

[JaapDaniels]

Relegion, i came from a religious christian family...
Never saw that racism part that strong.I was teached that god loves us that the christian religion was love.
But the more i really came to see my fellow christians i came to notice that there never was love, there was common hate wich bounded people together.
Hate towards people thinking different about god, hate towards those who'd fallen in love with someone of thier own sex, hate towards those not spending thier money on gifting those less fortunate on the other side of the world...
Then i started to really read the bible on my own, and i got shocked, first part of the bible claims to be the first humans only got 2 sons, but that's messed up so either there's incest or it's beastiallety that created us?
The all seeing perfect God said when humans were the final part of creation it was perfect, just to whipe almost all humans of the earth later... Where is that love?
Okay later two childeren laughing for some old dude, die later on by 2 bears killing them brutally is something good for they laughed at a prophet?
Really where is that so called perfect loving beïng? for i couldn't find one story without corruption.
The comes the law about how to love one another is only allowed when it male female relation, with making children in mind, even that fucked up that if not followed you get a violent death.
Again, love?
Okay so it's like normal in the age of the bible to pay for a life partner that "loves" and "wants childeren at the age of 13, now comes the main prophet at that age, but wait a minute... no wife comes, only 12 friends who'd have a secret bounding that never really got explained...

Okay i came at the age girls got my eyes, one in particulary... She was also a christian...
When she started trusting me, she told me about her life, that it wasn't fun for her, not since soomeone else abused her...
She never told me who it was (i have my suspicion, but even if that suspicion is true it will not help).
it made her suicidal one time, using hard drugs another time... these things developed on thier own to more horrible stories...
but what made it really discusting were the people at church telling me behind her back that she was no good, that she did things wich were wrong, but never talked with her if she needed help.
The love didn't work out, but it left a mark in my mind.

Now when i got 19 a heard about a few years older person of my church hanging himself, he couldn't choose between religion and beeïng gay, but what really made me feel sick was what his parents said:
They tried to bring him to a christian shrink, and called thier son sick beyond helping...

For i wanted still to beleve in the bible for it sounded so good when i was little, and i knew my parents would like the tradition to stay in family...
I tried every christian churge but they all had thier corruption, emptying me out.
i thought i red about different religions, but they either felt fake, or came down to the same corruption.

• Greed (always talking about they're misiing thier 10% of your income)
• Homophobia
• Gossip (in the negative way as described about my first love)

Relegion can be anything but love it's the opposite.

 

[FAST6191]

Not sure that I particularly changed on anything. Was always taught to question everything. It is not hard to see every politico as a self serving moron.

Some things became more nuanced as more data became available, some greater understandings of things opened up some options for different/new solutions maybe, some problems got solved so as to be minor/watchdog level things rather than active measures needed (something many of those in those former active measures fields are grappling with as they fade into irrelevance and you need lawyers rather than firebrands and firestarters, with the latter ones often doing damage that the lawyers and firebrands capable of nuance* have to clean up -- those that cry racism and those that claim to represent the gay alphabet soup collective being very good examples of this as generally solved problems from where I sit), learned more of psychology and underpinning philosophies of various things that allows more effect debate/prediction of actions, learned more of economics that similarly opened up a few more outside the box options than the leave it to darwinism and pretend with are post scarcity despite being nothing of the sort extremes some go in for.

*which overwhelmingly tend to be new people rather than old hands.

Native religion was basically dead in the UK in the 1960s (if not earlier) so never had that to deal with, though seen the later death in the US when visiting that and what goes there. Generally go in for people as people, though in my case bikers with face tattoos are more likely to bring a spade at 4am than randoms on the street so taking people individually applying to a larger range is where that appeared from rather than this priest if a moron.

 

[Creamu]

Arguementation is more effective than emotional appeal. It was foolish to believe so and now I know better.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

I think it is quite virtuous for SScorpio to say he'd never take back anything stolen from him. Truly, a pacifist we can all look up to.

Could you clarify the point you are trying to make about something being stolen? The only way I could figure out any type of theft was if you believe someone having money is stealing from you.

In societies that rely on the exchange of goods and services, people trade effort (labor) for things they want/need. Before monetary systems were in place people would do direct trades for example five chickens for a goat. A place to stay and food to eat for working in the fields.

Over time the concept of currency came about so you could trade your effort (working a job) for an intermediary item of change (money, gold, etc). And then trade the intermediary item for something you want/need.

People with advanced skills or knowledge were in demand and could earn more than someone who was a basic laborer. This allowed them to have wealth they didn't need to spend on immediate needs. This gave rise to the middle class for skilled trades like baker, blacksmith, or mason. These people would all need materials that were collected by basic laborers who would be paid for the materials they collected with their effort.

This system continues even today. Even in socialist and communist countries, in those countries, people generally have less of a choice in the matter of what labor they perform, or how much of anything they need/want. And elite people live lives of luxury while the common man struggles to get by.

In capitalist systems, people are generally free to pursue their own goals and ambitions. Though some people still decide to not work and are drains on society and just want to complain without generating any effort. In non-capitalist systems, these people are seen as undesirables and sent to prison work camps or just outright killed.

 

[LainaGabranth]

"It's not theft if it's under capitalism!"
Considering our quality of life is built upon the slavery of others, not just in this country but many others, that's...not at all true LMAO

 

[Deleted member 114266]

"It's not theft if it's under capitalism!"
Considering our quality of life is built upon the slavery of others, not just in this country but many others, that's...not at all true LMAO

What country that has modern-day slavery is capitalist?

And sadly no, your mom making you go out and work your shift at McDonald's doesn't count.

 

[LainaGabranth]

What country that has modern-day slavery is capitalist?

And sadly no, your mom making you go out and work your shift at McDonald's doesn't count.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ng-cobalt-for-use-in-smartphones-says-amnesty

See, the reason I think capitalists are stupid isn't because their death cult ideology is built on the enslavement of the poor (though that is a factor!), it's also because many of our commodities are based on literal child labor and slavery, and were it not for them we straight up would not have these things. The instant you however suggest raising prices to source ethical labor or pay workers their dues, people get reaaaaaaaaaaaaaal tilted about it for some reason.

Maybe you just aren't experienced with the world, Scorpio. Would explain quite a few quirks of yours.

I remember being naive enough to think capitalism was fair. Then I stopped being 14.

 

[SyphenFreht]

What country that has modern-day slavery is capitalist?

And sadly no, your mom making you go out and work your shift at McDonald's doesn't count.

Have you looked at America with it's for profit industrial prison complex that contracts convicted felons to work for often times less than a dollar a day while they profit off the rest of the labor?

Have you looked into America's form of debt backed capitalism that causes people to be born already indebted to the state, forcing them to work as early as possible to start paying for things they should already have the right to acquire?

What about these government backed corporations that enforce ridiculous rules and regulations and provide terrible workplace atmospheres while still paying barely above local living wages and entrapping workers into a never ending cycle of working themselves to death to pay off debt and barely making ends meet?

None of that seems like modern day slavery under a capitalist regime?

I grew up thinking America and religion, Christianity in particular, were sacred things, worthy of admiration and loyalty. It's indoctrinated throughout America's terrible education system, standing for the flag and reciting pointless half hymns as early as kindergarten. I grew up in a cult, often on the fringes of "acceptable" society, that severely scrutinized who was desirable and who wasn't, and unsurprisingly enough, many who were not straight white males and their clearly dominated all white families were shunned, in the name of politics and religion.

These concepts are clearly born from greed and hunger for power. I've personally seen more Christian white backed institutions perform strict inclusion than any institution backed by people of another faith, ethnic background, or religious ideals. Growing up thinking that America and it's strong Christian overtones were a god send has caused me to take years to realize things like self worth (which was annihilated within my cult), solidarity, compassion, and open mindedness.

This country is equal parts on a rise and a downfall; I almost fear what the eventual fallout and crumble of this society will look like.