When is pirating ok? (discussion)

[Rydian]

He wasn't saying that the DC was harder to pirate on, he was saying that the idea of "piracy = dead system" is obviously wrong, listing multiple systems that are quite easy and common to pirate on, that succeeded quite well.

 

[ReBirFh]

-The PSX and PS2 would not read without a modchip of some sort (or the slidecard for the PS2 if you wanted to go that route). Dreamcast could be pirated using things so many kids had available at the time: a computer, CD burner, a Dreamcast game borrowed from a friend or rented from a video store, and a quick online tutorial. Even the later generations that had anti-piracy measures were worked around without the use of a modchip.

-The NDS was hurt by piracy but because children occupy so much of its market, piracy wasn't that big of a thing. Not that many 40 year old parents are going to go trolling rom sites for their kid, or buying flash cards from websites that they don't recognize.

-The Wii has the homebrew channel, but piracy on it isn't perfect because of the continuous updates and difficulty of getting the ISOs onto the device. Fitting them on a 2GB card isn't always optimal, and not everyone has a portable USB hard drive lying around.

-The 360 has some of the same issues as the PSX/PS2 in that you have to modify the system (albeit through software at this point I assume) to allow it to play modded games.

Aaaand of course the existence of the DMCA that wasn't even an issue when the Dreamcast was out makes things sketchy, because there is now a risk of being caught.

So no, the Dreamcast was not harder to pirate than these other systems; I would venture to say it was the easiest requiring no additional hardware or changes to the unit itself. Not quite as easy as copying floppy disk games like we all did in the 80's, but still pretty simple. Like I said in my post, piracy was only one reason the Dreamcast failed--but it also had some good things going for it that could have saved it if game sales were successful.

*In no moment I said the other systems were easier to pirate than the Dreamcast or it being harder than the others, what I said was that in their respective generations they were easier and this didnt turn them into a failure.

*The Dreamcast also wasn't as easy as you put it to pirate, you had to have an internet connection (at the time not as prevalent as today and with much lower speeds and harder for sharing), the games couldnt be copied directly as it used a proprietary media bigger than any CD-R available at the time (I think the size used to be 640mb later imprroved to 700Mb while the Dreamcast used a 1GB Disc that couldn't be read by common CD Readers) and even if you managed to get the scene iso it was a very convoluted way to burn them as it used a combination of problematic software to successfully burn them (I think the name was Diskjuggler or something like that).

 

[Rydian]

Well for end users by the time the DC was dead and cable was common, most game copies online were already ripped/trimmed. At least, I never ran across one that wouldn't burn to a CD-R properly. The only two games that I know of that game trouble were Rush 2047 (where they downsampled the audio and made it crappier), and Skies Of Arcadia, and for that one that just modded the game a bit to compress some things (but it made battles slower to launch). But yeah Diskjuggler was annoying, since it would offer to "fix" the disc all the time (which would make it non-bootable),

Also can't the PS2 just use a memory card that's had FreeMCBoot or whatever installed?

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

Ok guys... I usually just read the topics and stuff, but ethics and moral are my thing (I study philosophy in college and shit) and I thought I could somehow add to this discussion (I've been reading it for some days, and really enjoying the discussion).
That being said, let's start...
By the moral point of view, off course pirating is wrong (and talking about personal moral is bs, since even the scholars on the subject not always agree on the concept of moral, but the only thing they usually do agree is that moral is a social moral code). Just cuz you are in reality using someone's work in a non-approved way.
That being said, we go to the ethics subject. Is it ethical to pirate? This can be a muddy and shady point to discuss, cuz ethic is a purely personal stand.
For example: I, as some other guys who are engaging in the discussion, happen to be Brazilian. In my case (and the guys will surely agree) I happen to be one of the most under paid workers in the country: I'm a teacher (English, to be a little more accurate). So, I usually have a reasonably low income to deal with every month, and, not just like to play VGs sometimes, but also end enduring some kind of moral pressure to understand and know something about the hypes and trends that are happening at that exactly moment, so I can make some king of dialog happen with my students.
A game in Brazil, IF i buy it by any legit mean (and I sometimes do), costs about 30 to 40% of my monthly income, and if I don't have access to the games, even my professional side can be (emphasis on the CAN part, cuz it's a possibility) hurt. So, I pirate.
I accept that, I understand that, I wish I could buy copies of everything, and more consoles, and whatever.
It's not right (in the moral point of view), it's not a necessity (but it can be an obstacle) in my means of living if I don't, and if I could, I would change it.

But as fucked up as Brazil is, there are worse places.

Take as example, IDK, Angola.

Usually a family has a very small income, and any electronic is some sort of social status, so parents will try it's hardest to buy a tv, and to buy a vg to their kids. But, what good comes from a console without a game? They can't afford games, and it IS morally right within their society to pirate stuff (in some cases, it's the only way to do it, since legit stuff usually doesn't even comes inside its borders).

Now, talking about discussion only, I've seen some BIG flaws on jimskeet2002's arguments. They are NOT logic in any means of the term.
NO, prices NEVER justify conterfeiting or pirating a product.
NO, a psychological need (AKA addiction) don't do it either.
For hell's sake, not even the lack of access to a given product justifies this.
TBH, NOTHING justifies this given behavior.

Off course, I'm not demanding raw logic from scholars from a fucking forum discussion on a videogame forum... but common sense, come on...
Yeah, you do it, I do it... We both wouldn't do it if the prices were lower, but they aren't.
I REALLY don't want you grieving with guilty, I don't want you to suffer, none of that.
But accepting that this is morally wrong IS just common sense.
Being OK with it, it's a whole different matter.
I'm OK with pirating, and why shouldn't I?
I can't afford it, in MY country they tax VGs the same as gambling, and more: even with a lot of civil pressure, they just DON'T want to help us.
The big companies don't care about our market (sony is the only one, besides a brazilian company that used to license SEGA) that is inside Brazil in VGs, and this after more than 10 long years (ok, ok, nintendo used to have a branch in here back in the SNES era, but nw is gone).
So yeah, if they don't care about us, we don't have any reason to care about them.

But two wrongs will never make a right.

 

[jimskeet2002]

Ok guys... I usually just read the topics and stuff, but ethics and moral are my thing (I study philosophy in college and shit) and I thought I could somehow add to this discussion (I've been reading it for some days, and really enjoying the discussion).
That being said, let's start...
By the moral point of view, off course pirating is wrong (and talking about personal moral is bs, since even the scholars on the subject not always agree on the concept of moral, but the only thing they usually do agree is that moral is a social moral code). Just cuz you are in reality using someone's work in a non-approved way.
That being said, we go to the ethics subject. Is it ethical to pirate? This can be a muddy and shady point to discuss, cuz ethic is a purely personal stand.
For example: I, as some other guys who are engaging in the discussion, happen to be Brazilian. In my case (and the guys will surely agree) I happen to be one of the most under paid workers in the country: I'm a teacher (English, to be a little more accurate). So, I usually have a reasonably low income to deal with every month, and, not just like to play VGs sometimes, but also end enduring some kind of moral pressure to understand and know something about the hypes and trends that are happening at that exactly moment, so I can make some king of dialog happen with my students.
A game in Brazil, IF i buy it by any legit mean (and I sometimes do), costs about 30 to 40% of my monthly income, and if I don't have access to the games, even my professional side can be (emphasis on the CAN part, cuz it's a possibility) hurt. So, I pirate.
I accept that, I understand that, I wish I could buy copies of everything, and more consoles, and whatever.
It's not right (in the moral point of view), it's not a necessity (but it can be an obstacle) in my means of living if I don't, and if I could, I would change it.

But as fucked up as Brazil is, there are worse places.

Take as example, IDK, Angola.

Usually a family has a very small income, and any electronic is some sort of social status, so parents will try it's hardest to buy a tv, and to buy a vg to their kids. But, what good comes from a console without a game? They can't afford games, and it IS morally right within their society to pirate stuff (in some cases, it's the only way to do it, since legit stuff usually doesn't even comes inside its borders).

Now, talking about discussion only, I've seen some BIG flaws on jimskeet2002's arguments. They are NOT logic in any means of the term.
NO, prices NEVER justify conterfeiting or pirating a product.
NO, a psychological need (AKA addiction) don't do it either.
For hell's sake, not even the lack of access to a given product justifies this.
TBH, NOTHING justifies this given behavior.

Off course, I'm not demanding raw logic from scholars from a fucking forum discussion on a videogame forum... but common sense, come on...
Yeah, you do it, I do it... We both wouldn't do it if the prices were lower, but they aren't.
I REALLY don't want you grieving with guilty, I don't want you to suffer, none of that.
But accepting that this is morally wrong IS just common sense.
Being OK with it, it's a whole different matter.
I'm OK with pirating, and why shouldn't I?
I can't afford it, in MY country they tax VGs the same as gambling, and more: even with a lot of civil pressure, they just DON'T want to help us.
The big companies don't care about our market (sony is the only one, besides a brazilian company that used to license SEGA) that is inside Brazil in VGs, and this after more than 10 long years (ok, ok, nintendo used to have a branch in here back in the SNES era, but nw is gone).
So yeah, if they don't care about us, we don't have any reason to care about them.

But two wrongs will never make a right.

I really enjoyed your opinion. I agree with you. You just mention on the first bold sentence that for them it is moral. Let me tell you that here in Greece pirate is almost the only way here Greeks play games. We only buy games that can't be hacked. Like diablo 3, or heroes of newerth etc... So in my country you could say it is moral too Also we too have really low income. When companies know that our official lowest salary is 480 euro they cant charge us for 50 euro per game It is not moral IMO.
You say that prices never justify pirating. I think in the area of video games, piracy is a fact nowadays and companies should take it to account when they price their products... Recently I' ve read that Ubisoft plans on releasing F2P games just cause piracy levels are very high. And that they think that F2P model will bring them more value out of their products. That is clever thinking IMO, accept the fact and plan your moves keeping in mind that piracy is out there... When companies try to fight something that almost 95% of the audience does, that seems stupid...

 

[Senbei Norimaki]

I think in the area of video games, piracy is a fact nowadays and companies should take it to account when they price their products.

They do. They say the reason they charge so much for video games is because they are trying to make up the money they lost to pirates by charging the people who are too stupid to pirate more money. They don't only hate pirates they also hate people that by used games and people that buy out of region games too. Believe me they don't lose any money I see plenty of people at my job buying video games.

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

I really enjoyed your opinion. I agree with you. You just mention on the first bold sentence that for them it is moral. Let me tell you that here in Greece pirate is almost the only way here Greeks play games. We only buy games that can't be hacked. Like diablo 3, or heroes of newerth etc... So in my country you could say it is moral too Also we too have really low income. When companies know that our official lowest salary is 480 euro they cant charge us for 50 euro per game It is not moral IMO.
You say that prices never justify pirating. I think in the area of video games, piracy is a fact nowadays and companies should take it to account when they price their products... Recently I' ve read that Ubisoft plans on releasing F2P games just cause piracy levels are very high. And that they think that F2P model will bring them more value out of their products. That is clever thinking IMO, accept the fact and plan your moves keeping in mind that piracy is out there... When companies try to fight something that almost 95% of the audience does, that seems stupid...

Ok, so, use this chart as a reference:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ece&country2=Angola&city1=Athens&city2=Luanda

And now tell me: is it REALLY FAIR to compare Greece to Angola?

I don't think so...

 

[jimskeet2002]

Ok, so, use this chart as a reference:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ece&country2=Angola&city1=Athens&city2=Luanda

And now tell me: is it REALLY FAIR to compare Greece to Angola?

I don't think so...

Ok if you take as monthly salary 850 euro as it states and in Luanda says 2100euro ..... But here in Greece situation is very different than this chart.... Monthly salary is 480euro atm and is going down . 27% official unemployment... 50+% unemployment in ages lower than 30. And most of the guys that have jobs are part time jobs for money like 250-300 per month. So I can easily compare Greece to anywhere atm... 3000 suicides since 2 years for financial reasons btw

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

Quoting the website I've showed you:

You would need around 9,647.02$ (7,266.13€) in Luanda to maintain
the same standard of life that you can have with 2,700.00€ in Athens
(assuming you rent in both cities).
This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index.

Angola has a 26% rate of unemployment ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/angola/unemployment-rate ) AND if you go through the effort of reading the numbers, EVEN getting "more", everything in there is like, 300% more expensive than in Athenas.
Yeah, it's though to be in a country in the middle of a crisis, I know, I've been there, my family lost a load of money back in the 90's in our last economical crisis... but the country will survive and resist.
The problem with Greece is that you guys were used to have an "European" lifestyle, and now you need to deal with a Brazilian lifestyle... life sucks

 

[jimskeet2002]

Quoting the website I've showed you:

You would need around 9,647.02$ (7,266.13€) in Luanda to maintain
the same standard of life that you can have with 2,700.00€ in Athens
(assuming you rent in both cities).
This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index.

Angola has a 26% rate of unemployment ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/angola/unemployment-rate ) AND if you go through the effort of reading the numbers, EVEN getting "more", everything in there is like, 300% more expensive than in Athenas.
Yeah, it's though to be in a country in the middle of a crisis, I know, I've been there, my family lost a load of money back in the 90's in our last economical crisis... but the country will survive and resist.
The problem with Greece is that you guys were used to have an "European" lifestyle, and now you need to deal with a Brazilian lifestyle... life sucks

The problem with Greece is that we are a target of a financial war spreading out all over Europe and eventually the world. Also the 2.700euro salary is an astronomical amount here in Greece atm. A businessman with 15.000euro per year if he pays all the taxes that have been introduced nowadays in Greece he will end up having 200 euro per month true salary.... Life Idd sucks So that is why I don't get bs about morality of piracy . If companies feel that they are that doomed from piracy all i have to say to them is. well.... life sucks.

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

The problem with Greece is that we are a target of a financial war spreading out all over Europe and eventually the world. Also the 2.700euro salary is an astronomical amount here in Greece atm. A businessman with 15.000euro per year if he pays all the taxes that have been introduced nowadays in Greece he will end up having 200 euro per month true salary.... Life Idd sucks So that is why I don't get bs about morality of piracy . If companies feel that they are that doomed from piracy all i have to say to them is. well.... life sucks.

In Brazil, back then, the government confiscated ALL of our savings to try to rescue the country. It was 20 years ago, and even now there are people that are still waiting to be paid back.
Inflation of prices was an everyday reality, what you bought in a day with 2 bucks would be 3, or 4, or 5 in the following day. (They even started to hire people just to change the prices in the supermarket EVERYDAY. Crazy, ain't it?)
But, as I told you, things change.
Anyway you put it, this WILL BE an unfair comparison, due to a enormous number of reasons. But that's beyond the point of the original discussion.
Greece is going through a crisis, and in a crisis the morality of people doesn't change overnight.
To change the morals of a population is a proccess that takes decades, and generations.

And about feeling morally corrupt or not, PLEASE read again my first comment... and then try to understand that being morally wrong doesn't mean feeling wrong about it.

Ok, gotta work... be back in some 4 or 5 hours I think, so we'll resume the discussion by then

 

[Issac]

The problem with Greece is that we are a target of a financial war spreading out all over Europe and eventually the world.

....... what?

 

[Nurio]

....... what?

Don't you know? We Europeans want to kill Greece financially! That's why we put buttloads of money towards Greece!

(Sarcasm, for those who aren't aware.)

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

....... what?

Don't you know? We Europeans want to kill Greece financially! That's why we put buttloads of money towards Greece!

(Sarcasm, for those who aren't aware.)

LOL EXACTLY!

Fuck the greek! Nobody cares for them or for all the contributions their culture has done to modern society, nor for the financial impact of a country going bankrupt in Europe!

Holy shit...

 

[retKHAAAN]

Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong. There is no question of morality. It's not like you're killing the king's deer to feed your family... These are toys, people.

 

[jimskeet2002]

Don't you know? We Europeans want to kill Greece financially! That's why we put buttloads of money towards Greece!

(Sarcasm, for those who aren't aware.)

I am amazed at how misinformed people are... If you think that what is going now in Greece, which is also going on in other European countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc is not planned for years you are very very wrong... Also what money do you give us? The money media tells you that you give us? As a loan to pay previous loans? So our debt just grows bigger and bigger??? And then later they will come to us and tell us... Well you can't pay us so we will take your petrol below Creta (estimated about 10 trillion dollars) and any other mineral deposits here in Greece, which according to a survey a geological institute(which was closed right after the survey, what a coincidence) here in Greece did are quite a lot... Oh and your salaries will go down to 300euro so we have a place to hold our factories with very low costs of production so we have more profit. But hey... you guys clearly put buttloads of money so you can save poor Greeks, right? Oh we thank you so much.
Before posting BS for issues that serious you should do a little research first. Just sayin

EDIT: And stop believing to what MEDIA and COMPANIES say. Everything you listen from them is a product of communication teams designed to satisfy their purposes... It is called manipulation of the masses and is going around for too long... You should know that allready

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

I am amazed at how misinformed people are... If you think that what is going now in Greece, which is also going on in other European countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc is not planned for years you are very very wrong... Also what money do you give us? The money media tells you that you give us? As a loan to pay previous loans? So our debt just grows bigger and bigger??? And then later they will come to us and tell us... Well you can't pay us so we will take your petrol below Creta (estimated about 10 trillion dollars) and any other mineral deposits here in Greece, which according to a survey a geological institute(which was closed right after the survey, what a coincidence) here in Greece did are quite a lot... Oh and your salaries will go down to 300euro so we have a place to hold our factories with very low costs of production so we have more profit. But hey... you guys clearly put buttloads of money so you can save poor Greeks, right? Oh we thank you so much.
Before posting BS for issues that serious you should do a little research first. Just sayin

They have China for cheap factories. AND, if this about the petroil and minerals is true, sorry to say but you've chosen badly your government. No decent government would sit on a cashmine while its people suffer. Just saying...

 

[jimskeet2002]

They have China for cheap factories. AND, if this about the petroil and minerals is true, sorry to say but you've chosen badly your government. No decent government would sit on a cashmine while its people suffer. Just saying...

First China idd has cheap factories but Europe doesn't control it... They want to build their own China within Europe.... You think there is a choice here? Every party is the same shit here.... I didn't even go to vote... the abstention of the last elections was almos 40%. Do you know what that means??? That half the population is not believing in any of the parties.... They had to combine 3 parties so they can form a government cause the highest % a party got was 25%...... We are governed by a government that is set by outsiders to fulfill their purposes... And that is what they are doing here

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

First China idd has cheap factories but Europe doesn't control it... They want to build their own China within Europe.... You think there is a choice here? Every party is the same shit here.... I didn't even go to vote... the abstention of the last elections was almos 40%. Do you know what that means??? That half the population is not believing in any of the parties.... They had to combine 3 parties so they can form a government cause the highest % a party got was 25%...... We are governed by a government that is set by outsiders to fulfill their purposes... And that is what they are doing here

If the people didn't vote (thus allowing themselves the right of not giving a dam), and didn't show their unhappyness through action, well... the people deserve being fucked.

All in all, I think you're showing yourself as quite a sociopath, and quite a paranoid...

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong. There is no question of morality. It's not like you're killing the king's deer to feed your family... These are toys, people.

As much as I agree with the "piracy is wrong" thing, I wouldn't judge morality on law. That's just a social construction of reality. Gay marriage and marijuana are illegal (in the US at least) but a lot of people don't consider them "morally wrong", the former more so than the latter.

But yes, I do agree that piracy is wrong and that it can't be justified as a "necessity" like your example of the deer.