Whats your religion

[spinal_cord]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

Perfect says who?

Says the people who made him up.

 

[Necron]

How on earth would killing your son teach a group of OTHER people a lesson?
Read the bible, that wasnt the reason.

QUOTE(ProtoKun7 @ Apr 10 2011, 05:19 PM) The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

Protokun, I belive, but I find the way youre telling things not the most accurate. I know its true what you are saying, but you cannot use facts with people who doesnt belive them. If you say: God is all powerful, they will reply: says who?

 

[The Catboy]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

He will. It hasn't happened yet, but now that the debt has been paid, perfection will return. We don't know when, and right now we just have to wait.

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the shit hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

 

[Necron]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

He will. It hasn't happened yet, but now that the debt has been paid, perfection will return. We don't know when, and right now we just have to wait.

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the shit hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

Again. We need to change by ourselves, not by anyone else (its like when you copy on a test, you pass, but you dont learn a thing)

 

[Magmorph]

God was the one who gave us human standards.

Apologies if I am twisting words or you are going a devil's advocate style debating technique but is that so?

Many options here
Prior to the formation of a given religion were there no standards? I might also mention some moral philosophies being inherited from earlier belief structures and division between certain religions over what is what (thinking ten commandments at this stage)
In some flavours of Christianity at least and depending on your chosen interpretation of certain passages- laws of man are respected. (Yes I watched Dogma last night)
Is such a statement not flirting with the much maligned "without religion one is without morals" line of thought.
Evolutionary psychology and/or basic sociology might also have something to say.
Finally the big one- it was hinted at in the first line but the pick and choose nature of many aiming for interpretation of religious works not to mention translation. Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM just because I think it is funny.

Re "Man has never seen a unicorn. Man thinks about unicorns. Therefore, unicorns are real."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/20/unicorn_captured/

I know that is not what you meant and such logic is not ideal (probability usually factors into this) but still.

I was basing that on the assumption that there is a God and that he created humans. I am in the habit of referring to God as if he exists and the actions allegedly preformed by him actually happened. I do not believe that religion gives people morals. Even animals have some form of morals. I often use wolves not using each other as a food source as an example of this.

 

[machomuu]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

He will. It hasn't happened yet, but now that the debt has been paid, perfection will return. We don't know when, and right now we just have to wait.

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the shit hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

That's called Deism.

 

[Blood Fetish]

The concept of morals is entirely man-made. Animals kill each other all the time. For sport even.

 

[spinal_cord]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

He will. It hasn't happened yet, but now that the debt has been paid, perfection will return. We don't know when, and right now we just have to wait.

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the shit hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

Again. We need to change by ourselves, not by anyone else (its like when you copy on a test, you pass, but you dont learn a thing)

Then what is the point of an omnipotent being, who rules over apparently only one of the billions of billions of planets in the universe, if we have to do everything ourselves?

 

[KingVamp]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.
If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

By this logic, no because it would be force and not true perfection. It would be perfection without freedom. He want us to get close it perfect as humanly possible
on are own.

QUOTE(A Gay Little Catboy @ Apr 10 2011, 03:25 PM)

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the shit hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

That mess up the way you put it.

 

[ProtoKun7]

How on earth would killing your son teach a group of OTHER people a lesson?
Read the bible, that wasnt the reason.

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.
Protokun, I belive, but I find the way youre telling things not the most accurate. I know its true what you are saying, but you cannot use facts with people who doesnt belive them. If you say: God is all powerful, they will reply: says who?

I know I can't come across as efficiently as I want to (hey, there's another example of imperfection, I guess), but I'm trying to explain it as best I can, and unfortunately I can't stop people from being stubborn or refusing to accept what's right there. I'm glad you're remaining civil about it though.

QUOTE(A Gay Little Catboy @ Apr 10 2011, 09:21 PM) QUOTE(ProtoKun7 @ Apr 10 2011, 04:19 PM)

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.

If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

He will. It hasn't happened yet, but now that the debt has been paid, perfection will return. We don't know when, and right now we just have to wait.

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the stuff hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

Of course not.

Think of it like a court case. It started off with Satan being convinced that men didn't need God to be content, so he sparked the rebellion. Since then, it's been Satan trying to prove his point. God's given him adequate time to show his side of the argument to see if the allegation was correct and that man didn't need God and could operate independently of him. What God could have done is killed Adam, Eve, Satan and just started again, but it would be conceivable that angels still in existence could begin to have doubts and think that God just killed them immediately because he was worried that they'd defeat him (which wouldn't happen).
What happened instead is what you see now. Still under Satan's rulership, we can see how things on Earth are going right now. Satan's being given time to show his side of the argument, and once his time is up, everything will be restored and there will be no question of the right course of action.

Took me a while to type that.

 

[machomuu]

The concept of morals is entirely man-made. Animals kill each other all the time. For sport even.

That's true. Actually, a good part of my belief is that I am against Human supremacy. The bible says God created man in his image, I don't believe that. Do they really expect me to believe that all other animals on Earth were created for humans? No, we're animals too, I don't know why people refuse the notion. I believe all lives are equal, Human or otherwise. I don't believe that just because we "took over the world" we're any better than the other animals.

Just my opinion.

 

[The Catboy]

The point is, God is perfect and has perfect justice. The fact that we are not only imperfect but in relation, far inferior means that we can't understand everything he does. It's illogical for an imperfect being to believe he knows more or has a more sensible solution than a perfect being.
If God is perfection, should he have not seen our imperfections and fixed them? If he is of perfect justice, should he have not been able to rid the world of evils as easily as a snap of his fingers?

By this logic, no because it would be force and not true perfection. It would be perfection without freedom. He want us to get close it perfect as humanly possible
on are own.

That makes no sense what so ever. What you are implying is God is just sitting up there watching the shit hit the fan and is like "Meh, I deal with it another day."

That mess up the way you put it.

Still as God could have done millions of things more than he has done to prove this idea. I am not intending to question God's Will, I just want answers for the questions he left us.


QUOTE(ProtoKun7 @ Apr 10 2011, 04:36 PM)

Of course not.

Think of it like a court case. It started off with Satan being convinced that men didn't need God to be content, so he sparked the rebellion. Since then, it's been Satan trying to prove his point. God's given him adequate time to show his side of the argument to see if the allegation was correct and that man didn't need God and could operate independently of him. What God could have done is killed Adam, Eve, Satan and just started again, but it would be conceivable that angels still in existence could begin to have doubts and think that God just killed them immediately because he was worried that they'd defeat him (which wouldn't happen).
What happened instead is what you see now. Still under Satan's rulership, we can see how things on Earth are going right now. Satan's being given time to show his side of the argument, and once his time is up, everything will be restored and there will be no question of the right course of action.

Took me a while to type that.

So what you are saying is, God created us and now is just watching to see what would happen next?

 

[Necron]

Then what is the point of an omnipotent being, who rules over apparently only one of the billions of billions of planets in the universe, if we have to do everything ourselves?

The point is, that we are out of the original plan. Life should be (thinking as how it should be without original sin):
-Born
-Learn
-Enjoy life
-Work a little
-And may others things you can think

Now, we are out of that kind of life, so while this planet exist like it is, we need to change by ourselves, waiting fot the day to return to that continuity.
God is not our maid. Read the bible to undestand my point (im not saying this to convert you or something, Im saying it for you to see that those questions are already answered)

 

[Magmorph]

Of course not.

Think of it like a court case. It started off with Satan being convinced that men didn't need God to be content, so he sparked the rebellion. Since then, it's been Satan trying to prove his point. God's given him adequate time to show his side of the argument to see if the allegation was correct and that man didn't need God and could operate independently of him. What he could have done is killed Adam, Eve, Satan and just started again, but it would be conceivable that angels still in existence could begin to have doubts and think that God just killed them immediately because he was worried that they'd defeat him (which wouldn't happen).
What happened instead is what you see now. Still under Satan's rulership, we can see how things on Earth are going right now. Satan's being given time to show his side of the argument, and once his time is up, everything will be restored and there will be no question of the right course of action.

Took me a while to type that.

God made Satan knowing what the outcome of creating him would be. God would already know the outcome of Satan's side of the argument. Time has no meaning to a infinite being.

 

[Prophet]

Since when did being an atheist require you to also be an iconoclast?

If I may take a moment to butcher Shakespeare, I can't help but feel that many of the atheists in the thread "doth protest too much." I have a suspicion that a great many of you, on some level, wish to be genuinely convinced that there is in fact a God. If the concept is ridiculous and the believers are by extension ridiculous individuals; then why engage in a discourse that from your own perspective must appear futile?

I tend to think that maybe some of you aren't entirely content in your atheism. Perhaps you experience a spiritual void at times; an emptiness not address by non-theistic ideologies. And like a child too proud to admit his own insecurity, you enter discussions such as this one, with snide remarks and barbed questions.

 

[The Catboy]

Since when did being an atheist require you to also be an iconoclast?

If I may take a moment to butcher Shakespeare, I can't help but feel that many of the atheists in the thread "doth protest too much." I have a suspicion that a great many of you, on some level, wish to be genuinely convinced that there is in fact a God. If the concept is ridiculous and the believers are by extension ridiculous individuals; then why engage in a discourse that from your own perspective must appear futile?

I tend to think that maybe some of you aren't entirely content in your atheism. Perhaps you experience a spiritual void at times; an emptiness not address by non-theistic ideologies. And like a child too proud to admit his own insecurity, you enter discussions such as this one, with snide remarks and barbed questions.

I don't know much about the other members here, but I am no Atheist, I don't know what I am, I guess some people would refer to me as an Agnostic, but honest who knows.
Either way, I just feel a good debate is always needed at one point or another.

 

[ProtoKun7]

Of course not.

Think of it like a court case. It started off with Satan being convinced that men didn't need God to be content, so he sparked the rebellion. Since then, it's been Satan trying to prove his point. God's given him adequate time to show his side of the argument to see if the allegation was correct and that man didn't need God and could operate independently of him. What God could have done is killed Adam, Eve, Satan and just started again, but it would be conceivable that angels still in existence could begin to have doubts and think that God just killed them immediately because he was worried that they'd defeat him (which wouldn't happen).
What happened instead is what you see now. Still under Satan's rulership, we can see how things on Earth are going right now. Satan's being given time to show his side of the argument, and once his time is up, everything will be restored and there will be no question of the right course of action.

Took me a while to type that.
So what you are saying is, God created us and now is just watching to see what would happen next?

Not quite. Satan was allowed time to prove his point and it's clearly not going so well for him though. He was wrong.

God made Satan knowing what the outcome of creating him would be. God would already know the outcome of Satan's side of the argument. Time has no meaning to a infinite being.

God created an angel who allowed wrongful ambition to affect him. And though God has the power to see future events, it does not mean that he always knows everything that will happen any time he does anything. We have a sense of taste but it does not mean we taste everything we come into contact with. We have the power of speech but we do not always talk about the slightest event.



QUOTE(Prophet @ Apr 10 2011, 09:43 PM)

I tend to think that maybe some of you aren't entirely content in your atheism. Perhaps you experience a spiritual void at times; an emptiness not address by non-theistic ideologies. And like a child too proud to admit his own insecurity, you enter discussions such as this one, with snide remarks and barbed questions.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me; humans have an instinctive spritual desire, it's just that many people ignore this desire.

 

[DeathStrudel]

Since when did being an atheist require you to also be an iconoclast?

If I may take a moment to butcher Shakespeare, I can't help but feel that many of the atheists in the thread "doth protest too much." I have a suspicion that a great many of you, on some level, wish to be genuinely convinced that there is in fact a God. If the concept is ridiculous and the believers are by extension ridiculous individuals; then why engage in a discourse that from your own perspective must appear futile?

I tend to think that maybe some of you aren't entirely content in your atheism. Perhaps you experience a spiritual void at times; an emptiness not address by non-theistic ideologies. And like a child too proud to admit his own insecurity, you enter discussions such as this one, with snide remarks and barbed questions.

I already tried to make a similar point earlier. If you're an atheist, why argue with people who aren't going to change their religious perspective? and why go looking for evidence that you aren't going to find? If there was some sort of tangible evidence that definitively proved there was a god, then I think you would know without having to look for it.
And if you're religious, why would you try to convince people that your religion is correct when I highly doubt you would even consider converting to another religion or become an atheist

 

[Necron]

I already tried to make a similar point earlier. If you're an atheist, why argue with people who aren't going to change their religious perspective? and why go looking for evidence that you aren't going to find? If there was some sort of tangible evidence that definitively proved there was a god, then I think you would know without having to look for it.
And if you're religious, why would you try to convince people that your religion is correct when I highly doubt you would even consider converting to another religion or become an atheist

And more, why to post in this topic. As somebody said in the first post, atheism is not a religion so they are not answering the initial question.
For someone who says: "but I want to express myself too", you can, but the right situation
Its like this: "what your favorite color?" and you say: "its raining"

edit: this sound like "no, you cannot express yourself here", but its not what Im trying to say.

 

[The Catboy]

Not quite. Satan was allowed time to prove his point and it's clearly not going so well for him though. He was wrong.

Not to say that I don't believe that, but I just question that idea. As God, more like an immortal, all mighty, all-seeing being, God wouldn't even need to do that. He's perfection as said before, thus meaning he has compete power of that situation and honestly would have already known all this in advance.
I just want to know why God would do all that, it just seems put all that work into something he was just going to let fail first place.