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Trump-Appointed Judge Blocks Biden's Student Debt Relief Plan
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My daughter just started college, and she does intend to go to medical school so pretty much only one road.
And along with some grants and scholarships, and financial support from us her parents, she did have to borrow via Federal student loans.
Question is ... if the Federal government is forgiving student loan debt for those who've already gone to school, why does she need to incur new debt now? Why isn't the Federal government swooping in to cover the college expense of current students, instead of just making them take more loans???
I suspect the answer is, they never intended this to really happen anyway.
I could study the history of Street Fighter. Why should society pay for that? Child education is a human right, not adult education.
But why not be consistent and make both a human right?
Society is already paying for one why not pay for both?
Seems strange to cut it off right when they needs to learn specific skills for their career choice, which you don't learn in HS but learn in College. HS is more of generic education. College is specified.
Another day, another notimp Nothereed thread wherein apparently more than half the population could conceivably support unmitigated evil (this despite all politicians proving themselves incompetent and corrupt on the regular) but might as well play.
The better solution is to reduce the amounts guaranteed by the loans.
That way only the capable, those likely to pay back or already rich get in rather than the free for all party (and pork barrel/gravy train for terminal academics) that most things seem to end up being.
Cost is usually the answer, especially if you are going to be paying the ridiculously inflated prices that the US seems to go in for. Does it provide a suitable return on investment and could the limited funds (we will pretend for a moment it is not money printer go brr and actually trying to use funds from taxes, incomes and investments such that they don't spend more than they make or debt is not rolled over endlessly as a tax on the lazy investor*).
The cost of it (in addition to not having your youth in the workforce/generating income for 4 years if you fall for the con like the US does and 3 years in the rest of the world, 4 if you do a masters) vs what they might achieve by other means (on the job training, apprenticeships, military, whatever they come out of I would agree not very useful at present compared to past high school with, self teaching, entrepreneurship). Already it is quite a questionable thing for most, and would be even if it was significantly cheaper -- many would say if you are not going for STEM (science, technology, engineering, maths, and even those have their don't touch this area aspects** or medicine) then don't bother, be rich already or be exceptional in your field -- the world does need more historians but performance requirements are high, and while law is often in that list it has changed to being only if it is a top tier school for it. Even then the tech side of things is questionable for a lot of people -- plenty of computing firms take people in with nothing (or harder to obtain skills -- trying to get the average nerd to contemplate physical security is difficult, training some former military/police/security services how to use a port scanner or prebaked tools is rather easier) and train them up, and even in more traditional engineering plenty of non degree avenues into that even if we don't consider the self educated and many of those I would pick for my team over a freshly graduated degree holder.
This is also before whether we consider if people are capable of it -- I have my misgivings with a lot of IQ based efforts*** but I would put it forward as a jumping off point (IQ also being a heritable trait for the most part). That is also saying nothing about interest in the subject; I pull things apart because it is fun and will do it 14 hours a day, someone else can learn but if they have to force themselves to do that then they are a massive disadvantage. This can also vary between the sexes if we want to bring that into it as some do, and the damage it does to "affirmative action" hires is also on the cards (take some of the poor purple eyed people into your school because it makes your sorting historical oppression feelings tingle but run out of the smart ones, relax some requirements and let the lesser ones in and the lesser ones that might have done really well at the lesser roles in society... well the wash out rates speak for themselves).
*your pension fund and such like is probably required to have government debts as a significant fraction of their portfolio, one reason why they rarely beat inflation or sticking it in the market index and walking away.
**employment rates of those that go in for biology and biochemistry is perhaps not as high as some other areas, and computing varies dramatically as well between squeaked through java coding for idiots and could code a new fully featured OS tomorrow computer science type, or barely able to work helldesk vs able to deploy a whole new infrastructure if going that way.
***videos because why not
I know some are not as great a fan of the guy but this is less how to live your life and more observable reality.
Did have one for levels of reading but going with a link https://fs.blog/levels-of-reading/
Short version of that is there are various levels of reading, not everybody is capable of them all and that limits peak performance (if you can't take 5 multiple ambiguous sources, tease out useful info to come to a larger conclusion and go from there then you are never going to make a good lawyer, an I am sure we both know enough people that can barely follow simple instructions).
The better solution is to reduce the amounts guaranteed by the loans.
That way only the capable, those likely to pay back or already rich get in rather than the free for all party (and pork barrel/gravy train for terminal academics) that most things seem to end up being.
Cost is usually the answer, especially if you are going to be paying the ridiculously inflated prices that the US seems to go in for. Does it provide a suitable return on investment and could the limited funds (we will pretend for a moment it is not money printer go brr and actually trying to use funds from taxes, incomes and investments such that they don't spend more than they make or debt is not rolled over endlessly as a tax on the lazy investor*).
The cost of it (in addition to not having your youth in the workforce/generating income for 4 years if you fall for the con like the US does and 3 years in the rest of the world, 4 if you do a masters) vs what they might achieve by other means (on the job training, apprenticeships, military, whatever they come out of I would agree not very useful at present compared to past high school with, self teaching, entrepreneurship). Already it is quite a questionable thing for most, and would be even if it was significantly cheaper -- many would say if you are not going for STEM (science, technology, engineering, maths, and even those have their don't touch this area aspects** or medicine) then don't bother, be rich already or be exceptional in your field -- the world does need more historians but performance requirements are high, and while law is often in that list it has changed to being only if it is a top tier school for it. Even then the tech side of things is questionable for a lot of people -- plenty of computing firms take people in with nothing (or harder to obtain skills -- trying to get the average nerd to contemplate physical security is difficult, training some former military/police/security services how to use a port scanner or prebaked tools is rather easier) and train them up, and even in more traditional engineering plenty of non degree avenues into that even if we don't consider the self educated and many of those I would pick for my team over a freshly graduated degree holder.
This is also before whether we consider if people are capable of it -- I have my misgivings with a lot of IQ based efforts*** but I would put it forward as a jumping off point (IQ also being a heritable trait for the most part). That is also saying nothing about interest in the subject; I pull things apart because it is fun and will do it 14 hours a day, someone else can learn but if they have to force themselves to do that then they are a massive disadvantage. This can also vary between the sexes if we want to bring that into it as some do, and the damage it does to "affirmative action" hires is also on the cards (take some of the poor purple eyed people into your school because it makes your sorting historical oppression feelings tingle but run out of the smart ones, relax some requirements and let the lesser ones in and the lesser ones that might have done really well at the lesser roles in society... well the wash out rates speak for themselves).
*your pension fund and such like is probably required to have government debts as a significant fraction of their portfolio, one reason why they rarely beat inflation or sticking it in the market index and walking away.
**employment rates of those that go in for biology and biochemistry is perhaps not as high as some other areas, and computing varies dramatically as well between squeaked through java coding for idiots and could code a new fully featured OS tomorrow computer science type, or barely able to work helldesk vs able to deploy a whole new infrastructure if going that way.
***videos because why not
I know some are not as great a fan of the guy but this is less how to live your life and more observable reality.
Did have one for levels of reading but going with a link https://fs.blog/levels-of-reading/
Short version of that is there are various levels of reading, not everybody is capable of them all and that limits peak performance (if you can't take 5 multiple ambiguous sources, tease out useful info to come to a larger conclusion and go from there then you are never going to make a good lawyer, an I am sure we both know enough people that can barely follow simple instructions).
Doesn't the cost argument also considers HS? Yet we still pay for HS through taxes. If cost was an issue then why don't we stop funding Middle School and High School through our taxes? Why stop at college?
I wonder why it is that colleges are not more competitive with one another in regards to pricing? Also, while there are grants galore to be used as an alternative to a government loans, I wonder why it is that you can't take your courses at University then pay the University back after you have graduated and began making your new life...
...unless they are not confident that what they are selling will actually benefit you in the long run and not just leave you stuck with a bill. I know the trade school I attended at the end of high school helped to find us jobs when we graduated, do colleges do that? Also, since college books are so disposable, why not print the text books as paper bound leaflets and books instead, since there is no logical reason to preserve an ever updated text in hard back. On that note I noticed a lot of college libraries suck as they tend to stick with what's popular at the time, rather than seasoned literature, such as James Billington's, Fire in the Minds of Men: The Origins of Revolutionary Faith. He was once the lead librarian of the Library of Congress, and by far laid down history better for me than so many of the school text books I was forced to read growing up, be that High School, Trade School, or my short time in College. Lastly, who decides what is to be honored as a Degree and what is not? What committee decides this, who appointed them, and at what point in history did a degree become more important than something like demonstrable skills?
...unless they are not confident that what they are selling will actually benefit you in the long run and not just leave you stuck with a bill. I know the trade school I attended at the end of high school helped to find us jobs when we graduated, do colleges do that? Also, since college books are so disposable, why not print the text books as paper bound leaflets and books instead, since there is no logical reason to preserve an ever updated text in hard back. On that note I noticed a lot of college libraries suck as they tend to stick with what's popular at the time, rather than seasoned literature, such as James Billington's, Fire in the Minds of Men: The Origins of Revolutionary Faith. He was once the lead librarian of the Library of Congress, and by far laid down history better for me than so many of the school text books I was forced to read growing up, be that High School, Trade School, or my short time in College. Lastly, who decides what is to be honored as a Degree and what is not? What committee decides this, who appointed them, and at what point in history did a degree become more important than something like demonstrable skills?
With that logic we should make parents pay for Elementary School, Middle School, High School. Incur debt for trying to get an education for their children then force parents to pay for enormous amount of debt. So we can stay consistent with how we handle college.
Your comparison is illogical.
They do that because they are their parents, their carers, their guardians, so they care about their future and they want them to succeed for a prosper future.
You know, much as I like my nephew and niece, I'm not paying anything for them since I'm not their parent -- That's their parents job. I could, if I wanted to, but I don't.
Lemme just make a million dollar debt and ask for someone else to pay... Nah, that ain't right.
Yes, thru tax, but not giving them directly. Odd comparison again.
You think being "pro-family" means paying a family member's debt? If it's a parent then it's entirely possible they agree to that debt, but a brother, daughter, uncle, aunt, grandpa, grandma, etc? No.
They could do it out of generosity, though that's different. We're not talking about being generous.
Point of diminishing returns is the question.
If contemplating thinking as a government then does forcing a larger and larger chunk of the population through university (assuming they even can, see previous post for more there as it might not be the case that they can even hack it) make for more tax revenues, more entrepreneurship (my UK student loans are as nothing compared to the US so I was free to go self employed where and when I like, rather bigger ask if you have loans that gots to be paid else they make life really hard the moment you get out), less citizens blowing their brains out (at least before they start to draw a pension), more citizens having children (fertility rate of university educated women being among the lowest anywhere), less need to import skilled foreign workers, less need to offshore valuable businesses, more able to defend the country (if some other power has the keys to your superweapons as they make the vital aspects...) or various other concerns there a country might have that are usually variations on that.
No high school usually means you are a useless burden on society, however it seems there are plenty of alternatives to universities (whose general goal by the looks of things is to make more academics, training people for the real world is almost a happy accident).
We do also have numbers from this experiment as well. Home ownership, savings rates, retirement affordability projections, mental illness rates (including deaths of despair), fertility rates and more. Now you would have to back off various other factors in that as a bunch of other things have changed during that but still enough there to ponder.
This is also somewhat immaterial to the matter at hand of should loan relief be given and thus paid for by those that never went, the rich that don't dodge taxes where they can, or went and actually were productive enough with the results that they do not qualify for this. If it was sold under a false premise (hard to get to illegal actions there, slimy as all fuck don't get me wrong getting the moronic 18 year olds to sign up with the tactics used. Hardly OMG you were Japanese 4 generations go into the internment camp that we normally look to such things to handouts for), is likely to make enough difference in the metrics noted above that things are worth doing (the money required to make those that went in for the bad degrees or were just unlucky or suitably lazy are not suddenly going to buy houses, make new businesses, shoot out a bunch of kids, decide not shoot at a bunch of kids in the mall, take the needle out of their arm or such would probably be considerable)
Universities do have career days, assistance in finding things and the like. They are usually about as useless as your high school career guidance.
As far as paid back afterwards then there are also those that pay a percentage of their salary for life instead.
On demonstrable skills vs piece of paper then historically it was a thing (see guilds, indeed those setting the standards for degrees in STEM often are the same as award), and still is -- doctors/medics have to show skills in practical world, a law degree is worth nothing compared to passing the bar, chartered engineer/steel ring vs not is a bit more debatable depending upon where you are in the world but could still be a thing of note in this, computing is likely as not to care more about your github/stack exchange account, and the perennial "needs experience" thing is also one to ponder.
Textbooks seems to be a unique thing to the US as well, though I know you were just being coy there. All the books I got in university I still reference.
But gender studies are needed? Fictional literature is not needed either (e.g. Shakespeare). If society needs sth, there are scholarships. Those who studied sth useful, do not need debt forgiveness. Why reward bad decisions like studying the history of Street Fighter? It encourages more bad decisions.
Yes because every single class taught in college is a gender studies class
.Kinda weird how the person mentioned that college should be a human right, basically them meaning something funded by our tax dollars, and for your counter argument you went straight to focus on gender studies/fictional literature as your main rebbuttle, thinking it's a good argument, without representing all of the classes colleges teaches, like STEM, in your argument.
Well I don't like them gender study classes so fuck them stem learners. Basically is what your argument boils down to.
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