If only the Japanese education system was as extensive as teaching these events to their students.I've given you many answers, if are you are too much of a simpleton to understand them I suggest you try to educate yourself some more.
In the meantime how about you do some research on those pesky island dwellers that liked to invade others and carry out brutalities, a quick google search should yeild all the answers for your questions:
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On this day 78 years ago, the atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki, ending the war
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Are you going to acknowledge the messaging that is inconsistent with your interpretation?
My interpretation is based on more than just a couple of specific posts. It's based on a profile that has been built over the years for most people here who post a lot. I don't know if it's accurate or not so I don't really care to defend it. I just believe in this case mrdude thinks the end justified the means. I don't feel like he really thinks the regular people deserved it but it was necessary regardless. Perhaps he made posts that directly contradicted that but it's still what I think.
I still hold an opposing view, but that's my charitable interpretation.
Thank you. Wish he was brave enough to say so. Would have saved a couple of pages of posting back and forth.
The Japanese government were no closer to surrendering after either atomic bomb. Japan only surrendered after Russia officially declared war on them. Japan would’ve surrendered when they did with it without the unjustified murder of thousands and thousands of civilians; men, women, and children.
Here’s an excellent video that goes into the nuts and bolts of the situation. For those of you who want to move past the narrative you were fed in elementary school.
Here’s an excellent video that goes into the nuts and bolts of the situation. For those of you who want to move past the narrative you were fed in elementary school.
You're correct in your thinking.
It was time for Japan to "pay the piper". What some of these liberals of today fail to do is to think like it's 1945 and not 2023, and the world had been at war for 5 years with many millions dead. The wars were fought with the tech that was available at the time and the countries that started the wars and inevitably failed were responsible for the deaths and suffering of hundreds of millions of innocent lives.
I do seem to notice that "tazbar" and his ilk fail to mention the between 3-30 million innocent people that Japan tortured, killed, raped, experimented on, ate, etc and the countries they invaded and they also had zero plan of their own on how to deal with them. The western leaders however did and many if not all people around today are alive and free because of it, so I take my hat of to those western leaders from back in those dark days that made the decisions that enabled "tazbar" and his ilk to post freely on the internet as they take their lives and freedoms for granted and I raise a toast to those leaders and remember the innocent that were taken from us in the most brutal and evil ways (may they rest in eternal peace) and the crimes that were commited on them by the Japanese.
Last edited by mrdude,
War crimes in continental Asia is something that people dead in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not doing because they were not there, they were back in home.
The army was criminal, the emperor (the one that USA kept as emperor because USA really never cared about war crimes) was criminal and the political body was criminal, the civilians don't.
But if you still believe that war crimes is to be paid with mass genocide, then read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes#World_War_II
You really need to do some research on why the intended cities were chosen to be nuked - let me start by giving you a helpful link about Hiroshima and how it was a military garrison and vital to Japan and an excellent taget for the western military to destroy.
https://hiroshimaforpeace.com/en/fu...was responsible for,as an army base increased.
My problem with you @mrdude is that even military leaders who believed that the bombs were necessary have, at least, "moral scruples" at the idea of sacrificing women, children, and elderly, you still have not personally expressed any. You lean on someone else to make you look better than you can do yourself. Your messaging reads like, "you killed babies, so we are going to kill your babies."
I am not judging people or even claiming that they are wrong for believing what I think is to be propaganda. The fact that there was not a consensus in American ranks means that you cannot be sure--and we cannot be sure. All of these people have a higher rank than you, and actually had access to the situation.
I am not judging people or even claiming that they are wrong for believing what I think is to be propaganda. The fact that there was not a consensus in American ranks means that you cannot be sure--and we cannot be sure. All of these people have a higher rank than you, and actually had access to the situation.
- General Dwight Eisenhower on learning of the planned bombings: “I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and voiced to [Secretary of War Stimson] my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’.”
- Admiral William Leahy, Truman’s Chief of Staff: “The use of this barbarous weapon… was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”
- Major General Curtis LeMay, 21st Bomber Command: “The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb… The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”
- General Hap Arnold, US Army Air Forces: “The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.” “It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”
- Ralph Bard, Under Secretary of the Navy: “The Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and the Swiss…In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb.”
- Brigadier General Carter Clarke, military intelligence officer who prepared summaries of intercepted cables for Truman: “When we didn’t need to do it, and we knew we didn’t need to do it…we used [Hiroshima and Nagasaki] as an experiment for two atomic bombs. Many other high-level military officers concurred.”
- Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, Pacific Fleet commander: “The use of atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.”
All I know is, I wasn't there, i.e. living in the world of 1945. Nobody else here was, either.
I was living in Hiroshima, right in the center of the city, for two years in the early 90's. Met a lot of people who lost family, even one man in a suburb town who saw the blast happen and the cloud after, from about 10 miles away. Went to the Peace Memorial Museum a couple times, participated in Aug 6 ceremonies both years I was there, basically surrounded by it 24/7.
And occasionally, I would get asked about it. Did I feel sorry? Should the US apologize? etc. And I said the same then. I wasn't there, living in the world of 1945, so I don't have an informed opinion and never will. The people who were there thought this was necessary to end the war. The behavior of Japanese soldiers in battle, the behavior of Japanese civilians on Okinawa, and the behavior of the Japanese military and government led them to believe that it was necessary. Whether they were correct, in hindsight, is a pointless question. It was done.
What I didn't say, but always felt, was, "don't start anymore wars trying to take over Asia and you'll never need to ask again."
I was living in Hiroshima, right in the center of the city, for two years in the early 90's. Met a lot of people who lost family, even one man in a suburb town who saw the blast happen and the cloud after, from about 10 miles away. Went to the Peace Memorial Museum a couple times, participated in Aug 6 ceremonies both years I was there, basically surrounded by it 24/7.
And occasionally, I would get asked about it. Did I feel sorry? Should the US apologize? etc. And I said the same then. I wasn't there, living in the world of 1945, so I don't have an informed opinion and never will. The people who were there thought this was necessary to end the war. The behavior of Japanese soldiers in battle, the behavior of Japanese civilians on Okinawa, and the behavior of the Japanese military and government led them to believe that it was necessary. Whether they were correct, in hindsight, is a pointless question. It was done.
What I didn't say, but always felt, was, "don't start anymore wars trying to take over Asia and you'll never need to ask again."
Putin attacked Ukraine because they wanted to do a trade deal with the EU.
First he annexed Crimea, then he attacked the US and UK (Donald Trump and Brexit).
It's easy to blame the victors because the only way to win a war is to kill more people than those who lost.
But Japan attacked pearl harbor before declaring war. Before that the US was quite happily sitting on the side lines and trying to end the war diplomatically.
When Japan occupied French Indochina in 1941, America retaliated by freezing all Japanese assets in the states, preventing Japan from purchasing oil. Having lost 94% of its oil supply and unwilling to submit to U.S demands, Japan planned to take the oil needed by force. However, striking south into British Malaya and the Dutch East Indies would almost certainly provoke an armed U.S response. To blunt that response, Japan decided to attack the U.S Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, hoping that the U.S would negotiate peace.
Which kinda sounds like the type of criticism that is aimed at the US for it's military operations in the middle east.
People died in Hiroshima because Japan was trying to steal other countries.
The war in Ukraine won't stop until more Russians die, that is just war.
Last edited by smf,
I think he’s more concerned about Ukraine potentially joining NATO, the EU or both, which would shift the sphere of western influence directly onto his doorstep and provide the country the bare minimum of protection against further incursions, either through NATO military support, the Common Security and Defence Policy or both. He envisioned Ukraine as another Belarus, but that never came to pass, so the next best thing is to completely integrate the country into the federation. Ukraine is in the unfortunate position Poland used to be - it’s an independent state squished between two spheres of influence, so we should make every effort we legally can to push Putin’s illegitimate land grab back, or at least even out the odds.
The whole NATO thing is just him trying to win over the Russian people. Ukraine had zero chance of joining NATO before the invasion, I'm not convinced the chances have gone up.
It was all about the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–Ukraine_Association_Agreement
Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden were EU members but not NATO members. So there wasn't necessarily a reason to stop them joining the EU in case that led to NATO membership.
And now the thread has been hijacked to be about Ukaraine/Russia. Considering the thread title is about Nukes/Japan/WW2 - let's try keep it on topic and start your own thread about Russia and Ukraine if that's what you want to talk about.
The thread has been about Ukraine/Russia for a while, but sure.
Japan started a war, US finished it. Japan thought they were better at killing, but they were wrong.
We have Japan to thank for the number of Nuclear weapons today.
I'm pretty sure we have Germany to thank for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_program
However the west beat them to creating and using the first weapon of mass destruction such as a nuke. Now we have had relative peace (compared to the past) since, because any country now knows that mutual destruction is guaranteed should we be in the same sort of situation as we were in the past. Which as bad as it sounds for now is a blessing in disguise.
Interesting take. As another neighbour of the federation I might have a different outlook on this, but as far as Poland is concerned membership in both bodies was always on the table so long as the country remains a western democracy, as opposed to becoming a Russian satellite. I suppose other member states might not share this sentiment, to us there can be no security on that border without a unified front.
@mrdude raises a good point - this is a thread about Japan and about remembering the bombings, their many victims and the long-term consequences, both good and bad. Not everything has to be about the Ukraine war, so out of respect I’d rather return to the main topic too.
And for those that ever wondered why Nagasaki was chosen as a good targe to bomb:
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/bombing-nagasaki-august-9-1945
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/bombing-nagasaki-august-9-1945
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