Microsoft Removes Mandatory Kinect Connection

takieda

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Correct. For official use of the PS1, you loaded games off of discs. Didn't like discs? Oh well.

And that's the whole point - MS is trying to create a new system for consoles. This methodology, this entire ecosystem does not exist yet, so SOMEONE had to start here. It's sad that noone can see the benefits. It's also sad that we live in a world where those benefits have to come at the cost of some things that, in the end, almost noone would really ever even notice. Yes, there are exceptions, and MS had already stated they'd work with anybody that could not have an always on connection, or any other limitation. MS is NOT about to stab its userbase in the back. Everyone keeps saying MS is greedy, MS just wants money. Guess what, so does Sony. They're both out to make money. And you know how that happens? Keeping the userbase happy, aka, listening to their audience. Now it seems enough of the core audience HATED the basic policies that were coming along with the benefits they were trying to introduce, so they listened and adjusted accordingly.

I don't think you understand the complaints. People are not complaining about digital distribution. People were complaining about the DRM.

Because they didn't WANT to see the benefits through the perceived threat of the DRM. I can't tell you the number of arguments I've gotten over the FUD that Snowden has spread, and all the useless statements people keep quoting as if they have some great source of perfect knowledge about how the government is spying on us and Google just wants to sell all our information for huge profits, etc. The implications on all these points are STAGGERING, and the fact that DRM is needed should have come as NO surprise, esp. to those of us on forums like these.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like DRM, in fact my GoG account is getting larger than my Steam account, but I cannot discount the benefits of a system like Steam, and what MS would have had in the Xbox One had a bunch of misinformed consumers not got their panties in a twist about it.

You might want to try using Steam before repeating the crap that other people have been telling you.

Offline mode disconnects Steam from the network indefinitely.
I've already stated my point on this. You still need to be online to install, and yes, I know that's still better than the DRM structure that the Xbox One was to release on. I am, however, sorrowfully underinformed here, but what were the DRM policies that Steam had when it first started, and how have they changed as their own market changed? I could be wrong, but it makes sense that it probably had a stronger enforcement of the DRM policies when it was first released.

Let's also understand something. MS did NOT just say, "you know what? We need DRM. Let's just make it as Big Brother as possible." No, instead, the publishers of all the third party games that were going to have to have anything to do with the Xbox One all had to come to a concensus of what they would agree to before they'd allow MS to have their games. I'd be willing to bet the DRM structure was a lot more simplified BEFORE the developers started making their demands.

Oh, and remember something else. MS has stated that their first party games will not have the DRM system's that they've mentioned in place, ever, on the Xbox One, but that publishers had the right to require and implement any system they effectively chose. Sony's little E3 Press conference, where they showed how to share games, you know the one that got everyone suddenly wanting a PS4? Did anyone even NOTICE the very next day at E3, that Sony made the statement that publishers had the same rights to adding DRM that the Xbox One third party publishers had? at the end of all this, the basic system is almost identical.

Steam (and other existing methods of digital game distribution) function just fine, including features like installing the same games to multiple machines... without always-online and mandatory check-ins.

Except you still need to be online to install the first time. Steam has been in this game a long time, and it has worked well for them. They've learned what does and does not work on a PC environment. Which is to say, in the realm of consoles, we're still not tested at all here. MS was NOT trying to alienate it's customers here. It doesn't take a genius to recognize that they hurt themselves big time over their statements, but it was NEVER their intent to do so. The whole point was to implement a system that would provide enough benefits to outweigh, if not far outweigh, the downsides of that system. Just like implementing CDs, DVDs, and eventually Blu-Ray into the whole system, while providing enormous amounts of space, each itteration has introduced longer load times, scratched discs, dirty read heads, failed read lasers, and a number of other problems that previous models weren't plagued with (okay the dirty read head could be similar enough to dirty pins, but you get my point here).

I'm willing to bet that if they had stuck to their guns, and the backlash hadn't been as bad as it was, that, while there WOULD be those that would be negatively impacted by the newly implemented features, and thus, restrictions, that MS would have changed things to work out in ways that would have HELPED their customer base be more loyal customers. MS and Sony both know this. They're both HUGE players in the industry. As much as I've seen people talk about companies wanting to get the quick buck, Sony and MS are NOT stupid enough to stab themselves in the foot to implement features that would pay off big in the beginning but would end up hurting them in the long run.

When Microsoft said it was "required", they really meant "We don't trust the user to have these features without invasive and restrictive DRM".

See above statement about what Microsoft was NOT doing. We live in a capitalistic world. The system works best with money lubricating all the gears and cogs. If the system came out as originally planned, and made money, then we'd all be better for it. If the system did not make money, MS would have changed whatever issues necessary to make it a profitable one, once again. This is how the system works. It's not big brother trying to keep us under their almighty heel.
 

takieda

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I just sat and reread what I've stated... I don't really want to edit it, as the statements hold true, at least from what I understand, but I do feel an apology is warranted. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as crass or rude here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and if you don't like the DRM then that is your choice. Enough people spoke up against my own opinion that the market changed to reflect that, so I stand in the minority here. I just hope that some can see, at least the points of what I've tried to say.

Once again, I'm sorry Rydian for anything I've said in anger, and to anyone else I may have offended.
 

Rydian

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The problem with half of your opinion is that it's based on lies you've been told. The DRM is not in any way a technical requirement to use said fetures (as shown by other services that have these features without the DRM). If you need to be online to download something, that's not DRM. That's a technical requirement.

Microsoft did not remove the extra features because they wouldn't work without the DRM. Microsoft removed the extra features of their own free will.
 

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Prevention is better than cure - Seems to fit perfectly with the situation, huh? I understand why DRM exists and I am not totally against it, however I have yet to find a case where pirates have not bypassed the DRM so it just ends up hurting the legit user. :(
 

takieda

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The problem with half of your opinion is that it's based on lies you've been told. The DRM is not in any way a technical requirement to use said fetures (as shown by other services that have these features without the DRM). If you need to be online to download something, that's not DRM. That's a technical requirement.

I'm not sure I made my previous statement about Steam clear on this. If you install a game that requires Steam, such as Skyrim, it still requires you to be online to install it. While this is not as severe as the 24 hour requirement that MS had stated, it is still part of the DRM that has been implemented to allow such a feature. Bethesda would not have worked with Steam if there was no copy protection schema, hence the reason Steam has its own form of DRM.

Also, to clarify, I know that DRM is not required to allow a program to function at all, it's just that the developers (MS as well as third party) will not allow their IPs to be put onto a device without DRM. Sony has its own DRM structure, as does Nintendo, and now that MS has changed their stance, it falls much more in line with the other major players. Just as a personal opinion though, I'd have preferred the heavier DRM and no real extra restrictions on me, for the benefits that they would have had implemented as a result of said DRM.

Microsoft did not remove the extra features because they wouldn't work without the DRM. Microsoft removed the extra features of their own free will.

And Microsoft had to remove those features, or third party developers would have jumped ship. Remember that the developers have a large part to do with why the DRM was set as seemingly restrictive as it was. As a developer, they would not allow their games to be put onto a console that allowed free reign of unlimited offline installs. Yes, MS removed those features of their own free will, because, ultimately, they can do what they want with their hardware and software, but if they'd not removed the features, but just removed the DRM instead, they'd have lost a LOT of developers (if not all). And before it gets said, I know that Microsoft has a lot of weight at these table discussions, but at the end of the day the third party developer has the ultimate ability to walk away from the table. Look at the developers that jumped ship from the DS when they saw piracy skyrocketing. Developers like Ubisoft (if I remember correctly) flatly stated they would produce no more games for a console so riddled with pirates.

On a somewhat related note, look at what Nintendo's having to deal with with the loss of several developers for the WiiU (due to dismal sales of the hardware, admittedly, but it still fits in this desciption). They're pushing to get a bunch of great first party titles out the door. Only time will tell if that ultimately saves the WiiU.
 

takieda

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Prevention is better than cure - Seems to fit perfectly with the situation, huh? I understand why DRM exists and I am not totally against it, however I have yet to find a case where pirates have not bypassed the DRM so it just ends up hurting the legit user. :(
Honestly, I've not heard of any statements about GoG.com's success compared to the current climate of DRM riddled games. I'd love to hear about it, as that would, ultimately, give developer's a better sense of how an educated consumer market feels about DRM in general.

I have little hope that this will turn any tides, though, as the whole DRM free music strategy that iTunes took ultimately didn't receive the reaction that a lot of people were expecting. There's been no paradigm shift towards a DRM free music system, and instead, iTunes remains the only marketplace to have DRM free music (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have apple devices, but would still love to purchase my music DRM free).
 

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I have little hope that this will turn any tides, though, as the whole DRM free music strategy that iTunes took ultimately didn't receive the reaction that a lot of people were expecting. There's been no paradigm shift towards a DRM free music system, and instead, iTunes remains the only marketplace to have DRM free music (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have apple devices, but would still love to purchase my music DRM free).

Apart from Amazon MP3 (DRM Free MP3), Google Play (DRM Free MP3), Xbox Music/Zune Market (DRM Free MP3, Some DRMed WMA), and many smaller stores (infact, the only stores still using DRM are Napster and Rhapsody AFAIK, and they use PlaysForSure WMA).

So no, iTunes is not the only marketplace to provide DRM free music, far from it infact.

I'm not sure I made my previous statement about Steam clear on this. If you install a game that requires Steam, such as Skyrim, it still requires you to be online to install it.

That is a lie, Steam quite happily installs games from manual file copies or a manually migrated steamapps folder whilst offline (it may also do steambackups, I have never tried), so you may wish to check your facts :)
(Yes, I know that the initial add to account requires you to be online, as does updating your client's local games list & authorisation data.)
 

takieda

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Apart from Amazon MP3 (DRM Free MP3), Google Play (DRM Free MP3), Xbox Music/Zune Market (DRM Free MP3, Some DRMed WMA), and many smaller stores (infact, the only stores still using DRM are Napster and Rhapsody AFAIK, and they use PlaysForSure WMA).

So no, iTunes is not the only marketplace to provide DRM free music, far from it infact.

Thank you very much for this. I was quite unawares.

That is a lie, Steam quite happily installs games from manual file copies or a manually migrated steamapps folder whilst offline (it may also do steambackups, I have never tried), so you may wish to check your facts :)

I will grant, I don't have a large array of Steam based hard copy games at my disposal, but attempting to install Skyrim, at the least, without an internet connection, fails, as you need to use the CD Key to activate the software. It will not finalize install without this, thus requiring an internet connection, thus DRM.

Also, my copy of Left 4 Dead 2 requires an internet connection for installation from physical media, for the same reason.

Steam's own support document specifically states that games need to be updated online to be able to play in offline mode. Perhaps there are some games without this requirement, but Steam specifically states that they need to be online, at least once, to be able to play offline.
 

qaz00

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I will grant, I don't have a large array of Steam based hard copy games at my disposal, but attempting to install Skyrim, at the least, without an internet connection, fails, as you need to use the CD Key to activate the software. It will not finalize install without this, thus requiring an internet connection, thus DRM.

Also, my copy of Left 4 Dead 2 requires an internet connection for installation from physical media, for the same reason.

Steam's own support document specifically states that games need to be updated online to be able to play in offline mode. Perhaps there are some games without this requirement, but Steam specifically states that they need to be online, at least once, to be able to play offline.

I have never tried to install a Steam enabled game from physical media (I have a couple, but my gaming laptop has no DVD drive - 2nd HDD instead, and I have 60mbps internet) so cannot comment, however I have manually copied Skyrim between a pair of Steam installs (both my account, both offline, both knew I owned Skyrim) and it worked fine.
 

takieda

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I have never tried to install a Steam enabled game from physical media (I have a couple, but my gaming laptop has no DVD drive - 2nd HDD instead, and I have 60mbps internet) so cannot comment, however I have manually copied Skyrim between a pair of Steam installs (both my account, both offline, both knew I owned Skyrim) and it worked fine.
Then the basic principle of the DRM has already been enacted, which is to say, you installed the game, at one point, from an online download, through Steam, which has been verified, online, using their DRM system. The fact that you can copy the game from one computer to another on the same Steam account (or rather two Steam accounts with legal copies of Skyrim - which is, in this case, almost the same thing), while offline, does not affect that statement.
 

qaz00

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Then the basic principle of the DRM has already been enacted, which is to say, you installed the game, at one point, from an online download, through Steam, which has been verified, online, using their DRM system. The fact that you can copy the game from one computer to another on the same Steam account (or rather two Steam accounts with legal copies of Skyrim - which is, in this case, almost the same thing), while offline, does not affect that statement.
I argue that "installing" (writing the software to a local piece of storage and creating the required configuration and registry entries) is different from "purchasing"/"activating" (obtaining the software in your account in the first place, either via Steam store or physical copy with a steamkey). I can still install (or copy - as far as I'm concerned, they are two words for the same thing, and they have the same end result) Skyrim to a system with a Steam install that has been logged into by me without an internet connection.

I agree that all DRM is a pain in the arse, and even Steam has restrictive DRM (it's just not that annoying, it's just enough to keep the honest people honest - it stops me copying Skyrim and giving it to a friend who does not own it.)
 

Rydian

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I will grant, I don't have a large array of Steam based hard copy games at my disposal, but attempting to install Skyrim, at the least, without an internet connection, fails, as you need to use the CD Key to activate the software. It will not finalize install without this, thus requiring an internet connection, thus DRM.
Steam itself doesn't use CD keys, if you had to enter a key that was Bethesda's DRM (and Steam just uses it's own interface to confirm it with the data Bethesda gave them).

That said, one-time activation is normal and to be expected, and people can easily work with that.
Not so for always-on. That's not normal (outside of MMOs), and gets in the way.
 
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