Hacking DIOS MIOS/Devolution ethics thread

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the_randomizer

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He removed the files from his Google Code page and hasn't put them back up yet. What's so "immoral" about giving out links to files Crediar is depriving the rest of us from having access to?
 

Taleweaver

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I don't get why the program isn't available for download anymore. 2.2 has been out for a month now. That means hundreds if not thousands of people already have it downloaded (I'm just one of them). Even without tueidj uploading the files, I bet others are already sending it through mail, torrents, dropboxes and what have you as we speak. So hosting it on a private host isn't exactly effective.

And to be honest...I don't see much reasons to respect Crediar's wish not to distribute it myself. First there was a fundraiser that didn't meet specifics (maybe it was me, but I think it didn't get much publicity on gbatemp). Then he sold off the DML source code. Then there was a second fundraiser to continue working on it (I was one of those people paying). Then things went as a normal project for a while.
...and now this?

Not cool, man. I understand that you're doing it on a voluntary basis. You have the right to quit. I even advise you to, if money really is a problem. Because there is no money to be made in this.


(note: no, I won't upload things myself. In my books, Crediar still has some credit left because of sneek and preloader. Oh, and NMM as well. But it is less than it was).


As for the questions:
These are just a few of the questions that come up: 1. Is it wrong for crediar to use a commercial file hosting service in an attempt to earn funds to continue development of DIOS MIOS? If so, why? 2. Was it right to report crediar? 3. What was the motivation for doing so? 4. If motivation is ethically relevant, is it morally acceptable to do the right thing for the wrong reason?
1. yes. because there is no guarantee where it will end. People will donate, support will continue, then things will start all over again. Also, it's not really fair in regards to all the other developers on this forum who release things for free.
2. I'll leave that to tueidj. It seems like a legit case, but I'm not a lawyer. Oh, and this isn't a trial.
3. dude...you know damn well that nobody but tueidj has an answer to this. If you want to know, ask him. It's pretty unethical to ask these sorts of rhetorical questions, as it'll only polarize people into two sides for no reason whatsoever.
4. lemme reply with something completely different: it's NOT morally acceptable to make assumptions. That you're not telling it but merely suggesting it doesn't make a difference. :angry:

*grumbles*
The right thing for the wrong reasons my ass. This is a forum. Not the fucking presidential debates. :rolleyes:
 
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lovewiibrew

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If most of the work was already done for him with other code, why did it take so long for someone to come out with a Gamecube USB loading program?
Because most devs did not have interest to make it or were simply too lazy. BTW guys, that thread is not really needed, I mean really, it happend so live with it and dont start a new flaming thread about every single action :P

But everyone said it was impossible to do, or was it impossible to motivate devs? ;)
 
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wiismodrome

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As for the questions:
These are just a few of the questions that come up: 1. Is it wrong for crediar to use a commercial file hosting service in an attempt to earn funds to continue development of DIOS MIOS? If so, why? 2. Was it right to report crediar? 3. What was the motivation for doing so? 4. If motivation is ethically relevant, is it morally acceptable to do the right thing for the wrong reason?
1. yes. because there is no guarantee where it will end. People will donate, support will continue, then things will start all over again. Also, it's not really fair in regards to all the other developers on this forum who release things for free.
2. I'll leave that to tueidj. It seems like a legit case, but I'm not a lawyer. Oh, and this isn't a trial.
3. dude...you know damn well that nobody but tueidj has an answer to this. If you want to know, ask him. It's pretty unethical to ask these sorts of rhetorical questions, as it'll only polarize people into two sides for no reason whatsoever.
4. lemme reply with something completely different: it's NOT morally acceptable to make assumptions. That you're not telling it but merely suggesting it doesn't make a difference. :angry:

*grumbles*
The right thing for the wrong reasons my ass. This is a forum. Not the fucking presidential debates. :rolleyes:
Those were just a few questions that came to mind. Others are free to outline their own point of view and come up with their own questions and answers. I don't see how that is at all unethical. That's how discussion works - people give their reasons for thinking a certain way and others respond with the rationale for their own perspective. It is also helpful to discuss such matters, because often people hold others in contempt due to a misunderstanding of why they acted in a certain way.

BTW, here is another example in response to SifJar's query:

Imagine that someone has rigged up Sven's Wii so that when the eject button is hit three times in succession, it sends the launch order for a thermonuclear strike on Seychelles. So, one day Sven is using his Wii and accidentally presses eject three times in a row, causing Seychelles to be erased from the planet. Is Sven morally responsible for the destruction of an island nation and all of its inhabitants? No, because, even though it was a direct consequence of his actions, he had no prior awareness that his Wii was rigged and that he could destroy Seychelles if he hit eject three times. In other words, the consequence of his actions (thermonuclear destruction) was only an accidental consequence, not an intentional consequence that he actively considered before pressing the button. Thus, he cannot be held morally accountable for the consequence of his actions, as horrific as it may be. Similarly, if there are benefits to someone's actions, but they are only accidental, then they ought not be praised for it. Intent does matter.
 

tueidj

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I would question the intent of somebody including Devolution in this thread's title when it has no relevance to recent events nor does the opening introductory post give a logical explanation for it. Its presence would appear to be based on an irrational assumption made by the OP, showing that he does not have a consequentialist ethical view of the situation and the entire thread is designed as a springboard for fallacious arguments.
 
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wiismodrome

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I would question the intent of somebody including Devolution in this thread's title when it has no relevance to recent events nor does the opening introductory post give a logical explanation for it. Its presence would appear to be based on an irrational assumption made by the OP, showing that he does not have a consequentialist ethical view of the situation and the entire thread is designed as a springboard for fallacious arguments.
Interesting way to phrase a response.... If fallacious arguments have been presented, please point them out and explain why they are fallacious.

Why would Devolution be included? Because the author of Devolution has been directly involved in the specific situation under discussion. Even though Devolution is not involved per se, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that many would make some sort of connection between the fact that the person who wrote Devolution took action against the developer of a competing piece of software (DIOS MIOS). If this is an irrational assumption, please explain why. With regard to the rest of your post, it appears to be word salad... and quite possibly condescension.
 

VashTS

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i can't stand scene drama. some peoples god-complex / cover my own ass get in the way of pure fun.

i get why you put AP on devolution, it now is compliant under DMCA policy. In the end, its still illegal and if Nintendo wanted to prosecute they would have a STRONG case for copyright infringement. You are a smart fella, you obviously read things through and thoroughly understand policies. I applaud you for your work and research. Just on moral standing alone I will NEVER use Devolution, and I have access to around 150 Gamecube games on disc, on the flip side I probably have seen the entire collection as well which would provide a very large resource for testing.

im bored now, maybe ill finish my thoughts later. for now, for the record : All this stuff is illegal for real. you can bicker all you want.
 
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JoostinOnline

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Just on moral standing alone I will NEVER use Devolution
Why? You obviously use DM/DML based on your signatures. If it's morals you are concerned about, then I would think you'd be against DM.

im bored now, maybe ill finish my thoughts later. for now, for the record : All this stuff is illegal for real. you can bicker all you want.
That all depends on what country you live in.
 

VashTS

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Just on moral standing alone I will NEVER use Devolution
Why? You obviously use DM/DML based on your signatures. If it's morals you are concerned about, then I would think you'd be against DM.

im bored now, maybe ill finish my thoughts later. for now, for the record : All this stuff is illegal for real. you can bicker all you want.
That all depends on what country you live in.

the AP on devolution is the moral I cannot support. the point is to do what you will with your backups, who are you (the author) to tell me how i should use my backups? the intention of MANUFACTURER is to use the disc in the original hardware. the intention of the hacker is to BYPASS that LEGAL AP the original has.

if you want to play "holier than thou", use my software but under my guise, then screw that. the disc verification on devo makes it complicant under DMCA, but the actual usage of the software is illegal. tueidj is covering his ass, i would do the same. i will not be involved in that.
 
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wiismodrome

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Depending on local laws, in many parts of the world it is illegal to load backups regardless of the fact that one owns a copy of the software. Where that is the case, legally it does not matter if the backup loader requires the original disc or not. Taking this into account, one might contend that both DIOS MIOS and Devolution facilitate illegal activity, therefore neither one holds the ethical high ground.
 

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Interesting way to phrase a response.... If fallacious arguments have been presented, please point them out and explain why they are fallacious.

Why would Devolution be included? Because the author of Devolution has been directly involved in the specific situation under discussion. Even though Devolution is not involved per se, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that many would make some sort of connection between the fact that the person who wrote Devolution took action against the developer of a competing piece of software (DIOS MIOS). If this is an irrational assumption, please explain why. With regard to the rest of your post, it appears to be word salad... and quite possibly condescension.
Here is a response to the questions in bold regarding the section in italics: How can it be considered a competitive action when I am providing easier access to the so called "competing piece of software"? What is the logic behind such a claim, that I am going to somehow garner more support for my own product by offering it side-by-side with the "competing" product? You honestly consider this to be a rational assumption?

For the record there has never been any "competition", except in the minds of those who wanted to see it that way (including sk0ld who likes to refer to crediar and himself as "we" but doesn't seem to have actually contributed anything besides some minor wiki editing).
 

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the AP on devolution is the moral I cannot support. the point is to do what you will with your backups, who are you (the author) to tell me how i should use my backups? the intention of MANUFACTURER is to use the disc in the original hardware. the intention of the hacker is to BYPASS that LEGAL AP the original has.
ROFL! I am bookmarking this and putting it in my "Funny posts" folder. You think that AP is immoral! :rofl2:

if you want to play "holier than thou", use my software but under my guise, then screw that. the disc verification on devo makes it complicant under DMCA, but the actual usage of the software is illegal. tueidj is covering his ass, i would do the same. i will not be involved in that.
It has nothing to do with that, he just doesn't want it to be a warez loader. I doubt it complies with DMCA, but that doesn't apply outside of the US.
 

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He removed the files from his Google Code page and hasn't put them back up yet. What's so "immoral" about giving out links to files Crediar is depriving the rest of us from having access to?
I don't get why the program isn't available for download anymore.

Please lighten me up. What are you talking about?
They aren't HOSTED on Google Code though. I think that's the point they are trying to make.
 

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He removed the files from his Google Code page and hasn't put them back up yet. What's so "immoral" about giving out links to files Crediar is depriving the rest of us from having access to?
I don't get why the program isn't available for download anymore.

Please lighten me up. What are you talking about?
They aren't HOSTED on Google Code though. I think that's the point they are trying to make.
Indeed a stupid point IMO, as if there was much difference between them :rolleyes:
 

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He removed the files from his Google Code page and hasn't put them back up yet. What's so "immoral" about giving out links to files Crediar is depriving the rest of us from having access to?
I don't get why the program isn't available for download anymore.

Please lighten me up. What are you talking about?
They aren't HOSTED on Google Code though. I think that's the point they are trying to make.
Indeed a stupid point IMO, as if there was much difference between them :rolleyes:
He is trying to make money off of software that isn't his, instead of getting a job. But even if that wasn't the case, that still wouldn't make it wrong for tueidj to host the files.
 
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wiismodrome

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Interesting way to phrase a response.... If fallacious arguments have been presented, please point them out and explain why they are fallacious.

Why would Devolution be included? Because the author of Devolution has been directly involved in the specific situation under discussion. Even though Devolution is not involved per se, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that many would make some sort of connection between the fact that the person who wrote Devolution took action against the developer of a competing piece of software (DIOS MIOS). If this is an irrational assumption, please explain why. With regard to the rest of your post, it appears to be word salad... and quite possibly condescension.
Here is a response to the questions in bold regarding the section in italics: How can it be considered a competitive action when I am providing easier access to the so called "competing piece of software"? What is the logic behind such a claim, that I am going to somehow garner more support for my own product by offering it side-by-side with the "competing" product? You honestly consider this to be a rational assumption?

For the record there has never been any "competition", except in the minds of those who wanted to see it that way (including sk0ld who likes to refer to crediar and himself as "we" but doesn't seem to have actually contributed anything besides some minor wiki editing).
I'm hardly the first person to suggest that there appears to be some degree of competition at play. This old post from skOld would appear to show that those in the DIOS MIOS camp also recognize this, and also suggests that this perception has existed for at least several months (perhaps we could have a poll to gauge the prevalence of this perception?):

So, no doubt some of you would like our take on Devolution, and what it means to the future of DIOS MIOS. I can't blame you for wondering. The intentions are quite clear to both crediar and I.. shots were certainly fired. It didn't completely take us by surprise either. Truth is, I've been following a snake in the grass for about a month now.

Well to be quite honest with you, it changes absolutely nothing. With your help, DML will continue to improve. We have a myriad of features and enhancements laid out in front of us that are just begging to be worked on. We've recently added a feature that greatly benefits all of you loader users for example, and today crediar fixed a bug in discex so that every game should work compressed. It's always possible we even stumble onto a surprise or two. He might figure out USB loading tomorrow for all we know.

Anyway despite tueidj's intentions, we do wish him the best. We will continue to move forward as well.
Thus, although you may deny it, given the above and other evidence from this forum, the view that some degree of rivalry exists between the developers of DIOS MIOS and Devolution appears not to based upon anything irrational.

Additionally, this more recent and obviously satirical post suggests that the perception of acrimony remains.

crediar and I would like to say thanks to tueidj for bringing this to our attention...albeit indirectly. It's since been rectified, and the SVN has been restored.
So again, thank you tueidj.
THANK. YOU.
Why might hosting crediar's software be perceived as a combative act? For one, because crediar has made it clear that he does not want his software hosted elsewhere, and hosting these files on your own server is in direct conflict with that expressed desire. Yes, you are providing "easier access" for users, but knowingly doing so against the wishes of the party whose software you are hosting. When one party clearly expresses that they do not want others to do something and then another party goes ahead and does it anyway against their wishes, this tends to be perceived as adversarial, and as the type of action which would tend to generate conflict between the two parties. Surely these basic principles are not something that need to be pointed out. Note that I am just pointing out how many people are likely to frame their understanding of the situation. Perhaps this thread offers an opportunity to demonstrate that this view may be mistaken in some way.

As intimated above, I think that many instances of interpersonal conflict would dissolve if people made more of a genuine effort to share their reasons for acting. Often it seems as if people make assumptions about others' motivations, and often those assumptions can be mistaken. Constructive dialog can help to diffuse acrimony by mitigating misunderstanding.
 

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This thread is depressing. It's not going anywhere either. Seem's like people are just butting heads, and attacking each-others morals and ethics.

My opinions:
I've already stated that I don't like tueidj. But i respect him as a developer, because he does good work, and Devolution is a great piece of software, its just not my cup of tea due to the whole AP thing. I also feel that he has a strong sense of right and wrong. The thing that is off putting to me is what he chooses to do with that sense. I'm saying what's right isn't always best.
Example: Some (not me) might argue that the whole concept of emulator developing (by anyone that isn't the original hardware creator) is wrong. Its an attempt to replicate profit based hardware with (usually) free software. That could potentially hurt the original creator in some way. Be it through loss of profit or by going against the original hardware creator's intent of how it is supposed to be used in the first place. It can be considered wrong. Yet very few people are against these emulators.
I could go on, but i'd rather not, mostly because i don't completely agree with what i'm saying.
 

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As for the questions:
These are just a few of the questions that come up: 1. Is it wrong for crediar to use a commercial file hosting service in an attempt to earn funds to continue development of DIOS MIOS? If so, why? 2. Was it right to report crediar? 3. What was the motivation for doing so? 4. If motivation is ethically relevant, is it morally acceptable to do the right thing for the wrong reason?
1. yes. because there is no guarantee where it will end. People will donate, support will continue, then things will start all over again. Also, it's not really fair in regards to all the other developers on this forum who release things for free.
2. I'll leave that to tueidj. It seems like a legit case, but I'm not a lawyer. Oh, and this isn't a trial.
3. dude...you know damn well that nobody but tueidj has an answer to this. If you want to know, ask him. It's pretty unethical to ask these sorts of rhetorical questions, as it'll only polarize people into two sides for no reason whatsoever.
4. lemme reply with something completely different: it's NOT morally acceptable to make assumptions. That you're not telling it but merely suggesting it doesn't make a difference. :angry:

*grumbles*
The right thing for the wrong reasons my ass. This is a forum. Not the fucking presidential debates. :rolleyes:
Those were just a few questions that came to mind. Others are free to outline their own point of view and come up with their own questions and answers. I don't see how that is at all unethical. That's how discussion works - people give their reasons for thinking a certain way and others respond with the rationale for their own perspective. It is also helpful to discuss such matters, because often people hold others in contempt due to a misunderstanding of why they acted in a certain way.
No, that's not how a discussion works...that's how slander works. You ask others about their opinion, but you phrase it in such a way everyone would agree with it because the question is actually unanswerable (nr. 3) or biased (nr. 4).
It doesn't help to discuss these matters publicly because you're asking things to an audience that CANNOT KNOW THESE THINGS. Nobody can know what tueidj thinks but tueidj. That makes it unethical to ask around for it. You're allowing, even encouraging, others to spread wrong opinions. Plain and simple.
He removed the files from his Google Code page and hasn't put them back up yet. What's so "immoral" about giving out links to files Crediar is depriving the rest of us from having access to?
I don't get why the program isn't available for download anymore.

Please lighten me up. What are you talking about?
Have you even clicked those links (to the same page) yourself or read my entire post?

It says "be the first to donate to DIOS MIOS by Crediar". And as I said in my previous post: I already donated. He already tried to make money of it two or three times. Again: I don't blame him for that...but it's a bit unfair to forget about that. In other words: what do people get when they donate this time? Continuous support, or few updates until there's another way of asking for even more money?
 

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This thread is depressing. It's not going anywhere either. Seem's like people are just butting heads, and attacking each-others morals and ethics.
Sorry you feel that way. I was hoping that it might actually facilitate some constructive dialog.

My opinions:
I've already stated that I don't like tueidj. But i respect him as a developer, because he does good work, and Devolution is a great piece of software, its just not my cup of tea due to the whole AP thing. I also feel that he has a strong sense of right and wrong. The thing that is off putting to me is what he chooses to do with that sense. I'm saying what's right isn't always best.
Example: Some (not me) might argue that the whole concept of emulator developing (by anyone that isn't the original hardware creator) is wrong. Its an attempt to replicate profit based hardware with (usually) free software. That could potentially hurt the original creator in some way. Be it through loss of profit or by going against the original hardware creator's intent of how it is supposed to be used in the first place. It can be considered wrong. Yet very few people are against these emulators.
I could go on, but i'd rather not, mostly because i don't completely agree with what i'm saying.
What is right and what is legal are not necessarily the same thing. But of course we would have to enter a long discussion about the ethics and legalities surrounding intellectual property to make the necessary distinctions. That said, I tend to view IP laws as backward rather than forward-thinking, and think that there ought to be a movement toward a model where more software becomes property of the commons after a short period of private ownership. That would be conducive to greater collaboration and a community which can freely build upon the work of others, rather than focusing on extending profit-making beyond a reasonable period and tying up legal authorities with prosecution, though many would likely construe such an idea as anti-capitalist.

No, that's not how a discussion works...that's how slander works. You ask others about their opinion, but you phrase it in such a way everyone would agree with it because the question is actually unanswerable (nr. 3) or biased (nr. 4).
It doesn't help to discuss these matters publicly because you're asking things to an audience that CANNOT KNOW THESE THINGS. Nobody can know what tueidj thinks but tueidj. That makes it unethical to ask around for it. You're allowing, even encouraging, others to spread wrong opinions. Plain and simple.
Slander? That's a serious legal accusation. Can't agree. Others are entitled to their own opinions and free to express them here. If anyone disagrees with the few questions I posted, they are welcome to construct their own and reframe discussion in whatever way they consider to be appropriate.
 
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    Make sure you smack my booty daddy
    +1
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    telling him that my partner is luke...does he look like someone with such big ne
    eds?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    do you really think I could stand living with someone like luke?
    LeoTCK @ LeoTCK: do you really think I could stand living with someone like luke?