Covid-19 vaccine

[Foxi4]

When you have Lacius and foxi4 who are the better arguers on this site at defending their positions, and constantly opposed on many issues, agree with each other on the vaccine you know you've done fucked up.

I think we're both level-headed in this regard. While we disagree on practical matters like economic and monetary policy or more philosophical disputes like morality or societal issues and the associated potential solutions, it would be ridiculous to disagree on matters of science. That's one area where things are either true or false, with a high degree of confidence - it's not a matter of preference or opinion. The Earth is round, water is wet, vaccines work - you're either on the side that's correct or on the side that's ignorant.

 

[Alexander1970]

...The Earth is round,...

That................is what we have learned in School.............not more,not less....

 

[ghjfdtg]

[sarcasm] Plot twist it was the plan of the anti-vaxxers to breed and spread mutations all along. [/sarcasm]

I hope not.

 

[SG854]

I think we're both level-headed in this regard. While we disagree on practical matters like economic and monetary policy or more philosophical disputes like morality or societal issues and the associated potential solutions, it would be ridiculous to disagree on matters of science. That's one area where things are either true or false, with a high degree of confidence - it's not a matter of preference or opinion. The Earth is round, water is wet, vaccines work - you're either on the side that's correct or on the side that's ignorant.

Stuff like societal issues and economics are a little more complex because there's so many factors you have to control for and account. It's not as straight forward as vaccine science.


It just baffles me the amount of stubbornness some people have and the psychology behind it. I can understand people that are new to a topic, but people that have been repeatedly debunked and repeatedly told the same thing over and over and still hold on to their stubbornness is baffling.


It tells me it's personal issues, mentally not mature enough to admit faults when they are wrong so they double down. They want to project this image they want others to perceive them as so they can't admit faults. That's just my theory on this.

 

[Foxi4]

They want to project this image they want others to perceive them as so they can't admit faults. That's just my theory on this.

They should all just be like me and never be wrong.

 

[Lacius]

They should all just be like me and never be wrong.

I sometimes forget you have a sense of humor.

 

[Foxi4]

I sometimes forget you have a sense of humor.

The brightest lights tend to be blinding.

 

[SG854]

I sometimes forget you have a sense of humor.

Was that a jab at Foxi4? lol

 

[Skelletonike]

Welp, I got the vaccine around two weeks ago and I got this certificate which allows me to go out on weekends and have dinner on a restaurant at a friday night... Waste of paper since I'm too lazy to actually go anywhere though.

Anyway, got the shot from Moderna and all I had was normal soreness (or maybe everything was rotting inside my arm and mutating me into a zombie, who knows).

 

[Foxi4]

Was that a jab at Foxi4? lol

Looks like we're all talking about jabs.

 

[RocaBOT]

Logic 2.4
*snip*

Fallacy. Vaccination's goal is and has always been to make sure diseases that can mutate enough to potentially bypass immunity (be it "natural" or through exposure methods like vaccines) are eliminated or at least kept in check quickly enough and long enough that we can manage those mutations. Basic idea : the more the virus replicates, the more it has changes of introducing those mutations that could have it bypass acquired immunity for those that had the illness before and those that are vaccinated against it.
Its numerous replications come mostly from allowing it to spread in unvaccinated population, most of which is a fucking stupid choice of yours.
Also, you don't seem to be aware that the second most important goal of vaccination is to protect those that are too weak to be vaccinated. Because they cannot be vaccinated and acquire an immunity for themselves, the only way to keep them safe, short of locking them into their houses with no one to see, is to make sure people around them will not spread those illnesses to them. That is also true of COVID.

 

[KingVamp]

The Earth is round

And apparently the universe is a donut.

 

[Foxi4]

And apparently the universe is a donut.

Well, apparently the universe is actually flat, at least according to WMAP and BOOMERanG experiments, with a high degree of confidence (0.4% margin of error).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

Its curvature is just high enough to support our existence, but within such narrow bounds that it can be considered flat. The donut model dates back to 1984, I'm pretty sure more modern testing methods have ruled it out, but we'll probably never know for sure - infinity is hard to measure.

 

[KingVamp]

Well, apparently the universe is actually flat, at least according to WMAP and BOOMERanG experiments, with a high degree of confidence (0.4% margin of error).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

Its curvature is just high enough to support our existence, but within such narrow bounds that it can be considered flat. The donut model dates back to 1984, I'm pretty sure more modern testing methods have ruled it out, but we'll probably never know for sure - infinity is hard to measure.

Honestly, I only brought it up, because the donut universe is recently being talked about and I thought it was funny. That said, I think the idea is that it is both flat and donut shaped.

 

[Foxi4]

Honestly, I only brought it up, because the donut universe is recently being talked about and I thought it was funny. That said, I think the idea is that it is both flat and donut shaped.

At least the Flat Earthers can always switch to Flat Universers and they'll technically be right. That's a good save.

 

[tabzer]

Foxi4 bases his opinions on facts and science not on political party. The fact that I can predict how some people opinions will be based on political parties they aline with is ridiculous and means they don't think for themselves.


No it is not science what your doing. You have no idea how science works. You have no idea how to properly interpret science. That's why you are in the position you are. You think you do, but no. It's the perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect.

"mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies."

I thought the difference was obvious, but maybe you need a quote from the CDC?

Also... On the political front.

Australia Prime Minister Said That If You Die From The Vaccine, It’s Your Fault, Because It’s Your Job To Get Informed Consent From Your GP, Prior To Getting Vaccinated. https://t.co/lNaw9PbqRr

I guess, if you sign the waiver, then politicians, medical providers, mRNA new-type vaccine creators cannot be held accountable?

If the individual is responsible for their own health choices, then the individual is not responsible for reaching the ever elusive goalpost of "herd immunity"--which as Fauci admitted was a poll science.

 

[Foxi4]

"mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies."

I thought the difference was obvious, but maybe you need a quote from the CDC?

Yes, this is how they work, and yes, this is the first time they're rolled out on such a scale since they were originally developed in 1989, but there's a first time for everything. So far they show substantially higher effectiveness compared to the traditional vaccine (60% vs 90%+ efficacy), but there is some degree of fear over unknown and unexpected complications. With that being said, you have a test cohort of such an immense size that side effects would've been pretty obvious by now.

 

[tabzer]

Yes, this is how they work, and yes, this is the first time they're rolled out on such a scale since they were originally developed in 1989, but there's a first time for everything. So far they show substantially higher effectiveness compared to the traditional vaccine (60% vs 90%+ efficacy), but there is some degree of fear over unknown and unexpected complications. With that being said, you have a test cohort of such an immense size that side effects would've been pretty obvious by now.

Or long enough for the "correlation does not mean causation" argument to kick in?

When the inoculation teaches the immune system to fight the protein and not the germ, then variants of the germ are probably more likely to survive.

I doubt the efficacy is 90% when we see (at least) 6 out of 12 vaccinated people contract covid.

If one ignores the VEARS blowing up, which should be an obvious red-flag, then I doubt one has an interest in investigating or reporting its side effects.

 

[Lacius]

Or long enough for the "correlation does not mean causation" argument to kick in?

When the inoculation teaches the immune system to fight the protein and not the germ, then variants of the germ are probably more likely to survive.

I doubt the efficacy is 90% when we see (at least) 6 out of 12 vaccinated people contract covid.

If one ignores the VEARS blowing up, which should be an obvious red-flag, then I doubt one has an interest in investigating or reporting its side effects.

The Pfizer vaccine is approximately 90% effective against asymptomatic infection, and it's even higher against mild, moderate, and severe symptoms. Against the delta variant, it's more like 80% effective against asymptomatic infection.

Because of there being so many people who are unvaccinated and spreading the disease, the odds of breakthrough infections are higher.

 

[Foxi4]

Or long enough for the "correlation does not mean causation" argument to kick in?

When the inoculation teaches the immune system to fight the protein and not the germ, then variants of the germ are probably more likely to survive.

I doubt the efficacy is 90% when we see (at least) 6 out of 12 vaccinated people contract covid.

If one ignores the VEARS blowing up, which should be an obvious red-flag, then I doubt one has an interest in investigating or reporting its side effects.

The efficacy of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is pretty much equivalent and around 95%. The efficacy of J&J (a different vaccine method altogether, it's a single-shot viral vectored vaccine using a trained adenovirus carrying SARS-CoV2 spike protein genetic material, more akin to how a traditional vaccine would work) is measured at 66% globally. Vaccines do not stop you from catching the disease, that's not how they work and it's not how they've ever worked. Efficacy is measured by checking whether the body is capable of mounting a correct immune response or not. Whether you catch the disease or not is more a matter of how effective your immune system is, not how effective the vaccine is - the vaccine only teaches your body how to combat the pathogen, your body still has to deal with it. People with weak immune responses will still catch it, but they're unlikely to *die* from it, that's the point.

Tl;dr If you're worried about the implications of mRNA technology, go for the non-mRNA option if possible. It's less effective, but something is better than nothing. Its rollout should've never been paused over a few rare instances of complications - we always knew there would be some. Far more people have died from the disease in the time it was paused than would've suffered from blood clots if it wasn't. Having a non-mRNA option available would've helped with distribution among the vaccine hesitant.