Covid-19 vaccine

[WG481]

There's a lot to debunk here, so everyone forgive me if I miss something.

Fauci said masks probably weren't helpful back when we weren't convinced anything other than medical grade masks were helpful, but as our understanding changed, Fauci said so. There was also concern that citizens would deplete medical grade masks, since those were the only ones confirmed to be effective at the time, when medical professionals needed them most. I can't think of a more intellectually honest position than to go where the evidence goes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.

The COVID-19 virus usually transfers from person to person via droplets of saliva, which masks are able to block. A mask doesn't have to block transference at the atomic level in order to be effective (and respectfully, that's a ridiculous suggestion). A virus is many times bigger than oxygen molecules, and saliva droplets are many times bigger than a virus. Cheap disposable masks and cloth masks are at least 50% effective at preventing infected saliva droplets from transferring from person to person, and that number jumps quite a bit with two masks on top of each other. That number is also higher with better masks.

If you don't like wearing masks, get vaccinated. It's as simple as that. The vaccines are 80-95% effective against COVID-19, which is better than the protection you get with a mask, and the CDC guidance is that you don't have to wear a mask in most situations if you are fully vaccinated. It's a win-win.

The only person who politicized the virus was the former president. He downplayed it and ridiculed mitigation techniques like masks for political gain.

And this is why this thread is a failure. Because people like @Lacius present the logic, and other people downplay it as if they have a medical degree.

We have the evidence.

Stop crying about a vaccine.

 

[tabzer]

Fauci said masks probably weren't helpful back when we weren't convinced anything other than medical grade masks were helpful, but as our understanding changed, Fauci said so. There was also concern that citizens would deplete medical grade masks, since those were the only ones confirmed to be effective at the time, when medical professionals needed them most. I can't think of a more intellectually honest position than to go where the evidence goes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.

In the "highly unlikely" situation that your institutions fail you and people face mass side-effects of the vaccine, we can then stop taking the vaccine.

"That's a feature of inherited Nazi medical science, not a bug."

Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.

Bandwagoning and false dilemmas are straight from the propagandist's playbook. "Choose the vaccine or you are killing people" is a false dilemma.

 

[WG481]

In the "highly unlikely" situation that your institutions fail you and people face mass side-effects of the vaccine, we can then stop taking the vaccine.

"That's a feature of inherited Nazi medical science, not a bug."

Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.

Bandwagoning and false dilemmas are straight from the propagandist's playbook. "Choose the vaccine or you are killing people" is a false dilemma.

Refer to my former posts.

 

[RocaBOT]

Oh did we reach godwin point again? Man that was fast... Guess I shouldn't be surprised coming from someone who spreads misinformation about medical science and vaccines, and speaks the most stupid things about how you can "choose" to believe differently when things are scientifically proven, should I?

 

[notimp]

Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.

96% of US physicians are vaccinated.

But you demand, to be able to stick to choice and chose to listen to one, that not only isnt, but also promotes an anti vaxxer stance, based on an argument you arent telling us. But you insist, that this is the freedom you are supposed to have.

But you dont see the fallacy of demanding to chose a physician based on grounds that he will tell you something you want to hear. Without telling us why you want to hear that.

Is it side effects? 1:700.000 chance of blood cloths being caused by an mRNA vaccine, 1:3.000.000 chance of Guillain-Barré-Syndrom when vaccinated with the J&J vaccine. Oh, and never read the package insert of any medicament, because at least in the EU afair you only have to list sideeffects there that at least occur with 1:10.000 probability. (Didnt double check, might be wrong.).

Loss of freedom to choose? We are only telling you that you are an Idiot, that just told people, they have the right to choose the physician that gives them the diagnosis they want to hear.

We arent forcing you to go out to get it. We are just limiting your activism, by pointing out - that you'd go with 'because we have to protect the constitution', if you had the chance.

The issue with religious believes is, that its hard to disprove them. Same with moral imperatives.

We always end up with 'everyone should have the right to choose', yes, but not necessarily based on the BS you are feeding them.

Based on principal, sure. But no one is taking that away anyhow. We just have a person flogging an anti vaxxer opinion, based on arguments you aren voicing very clearly - but instead are rectifying by you 'protecting' a rather abstract principle like freedom, or choice, or...

Against what threat? And if you arent just protecting your personsal believes, but try to convince others on grounds of referring to abstract concepts, you are telling people at the same time are under risk of getting taken from them.. Well then thats a believe - which you are flogging on a forum frequented by underage people, showing time and time again, that you cant fathom being wrong, on anything.

Your retorts are rhetoric. And not even the good kind, but the bad kind, where you are the unfailable deciple, of the one good believe, that doenst make a difference weiter 96% of physicians are for or against a thing, as long as you can chose one, that will tell you what you want to hear.

Is that how you think arguing works also?

edit: Also to address your fear of 'being forced'. there is a very good reason, why we aren forcing you. And that is that it isnt entirely risk free (nothing is), but risk is very, very low. (Listening to reports of the doctors and hospitals, not the manufacturer.) But it isnt without risk. And I think no one in here would be willing to shoulder the responsibility of convincing you to take it, and then getting stuck with a very unlikely side effect, This is why the decision will always sit with you and with you alone.

Despite maybe, if you are working in the medical field, and you have to weigh that agains the direct risk you could inflict on a system. As an individual, no one is taking the choice away from you. There might be repercussions as for any behavior or choice you are making, that might be impacting others, but even that is not very likely.

 

[AsPika2219]

FINALLY!!! I have completed 2 doses vaccines!

 

[Lacius]

In the "highly unlikely" situation that your institutions fail you and people face mass side-effects of the vaccine, we can then stop taking the vaccine.

There is very little risk of any serious side effects from the vaccines. The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.

It's incredibly stupid to willfully choose a doctor who rejects medical science. Having the ability to choose an anti-vax doctor is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended by the broad medical community. Fortunately, anti-vax doctors are harder to come by than good doctors who accept science and promote the use of medicine.

You can choose your doctor, but you can't choose what's true and what's not.

Bandwagoning and false dilemmas are straight from the propagandist's playbook. "Choose the vaccine or you are killing people" is a false dilemma.

It isn't a false dilemma if it's true. If you choose to not get vaccinated, your risk of getting and spreading the disease is significantly higher than if you had chosen to be vaccinated.

 

[The Catboy]

Is it avoidable, and you can take steps to prevent a lot of disasters, but you can never completely stop them or predict the unpredictable. You can control events up to a point, but don't get hung up on trying to control every little thing.

So you say this, but then say shit like this

All I said was you can't make people take vaccines or do stuff they don't want to do because we all have basic human rights. I don't think I said why, I just said people don't have to because it's their choice and even if you wanna judge that, that still doesn't mean your position is automatically right because you disagree with one's actions. I wasn't looking for a debate (for now), just pointing out basic human rights is all.


Oh boo hoo hoo. People die everyday from plenty of other things, to car accidents to other diseases, so the goddamn king flu isn't a unique case where very few people die from it anyway. "B-b-b-b-but it's preventable with the vaccine." So is falling down the stairs and breaking your neck but that also happens to people anyway. You can't control every little thing and belittle people for not following your rhetoric.

You are legitimately the worst kind of people. Stupid and arrogant in their stupidity, even when it’s doesn’t add up to any of your other values and can even be dangerous to other.

 

[SG854]

How many pages has tabzer been going at it?

 

[The Catboy]

How many pages has tabzer been going at it?

More than 1

 

[BitMasterPlus]

So you say this, but then say shit like this

You are legitimately the worst kind of people. Stupid and arrogant in their stupidity, even when it’s doesn’t add up to any of your other values and can even be dangerous to other.

Projection at it's finest~.

 

[_47iscool]

this'll lead you eventually to the one truth.

As the other guy said, this is getting off-topic. Also, I am finished with this thread and won't be making further replies.

 

[The Catboy]

Projection at it's finest~.

I like how I gave you a chance to redeem yourself and yet you still choose to be stupid. I don’t think there’s such a thing as evidence to validate an anti-vaccination stance. It’s just conspiracy bullshit that is followed by gullible pseudo-intellectuals with about as much evidence as the flat earth.

 

[Deleted User]

Considering the world wide 7 billion population, even if you add world wide deaths, which is 4 million I think (and god knows how much that is a lie, if you die from a car crash but have covid they still say it's covid), 4 million vs. 7 billion, um yes, that's still very few people.

uh, if your comparing a us death total... TO WORLD WIDE
of course it is going to look small you moron.
A proper statistic/comparison would be the population of the US.
which is 328.2 million people.Again, covid is the second leading cause of death. ABOVE CANCER here in the states.
Saying it's tiny is fucking ludicrous.
"if you die from a car crash but have covid they still say it's covid."
Source? Because I'm going to be honest. If your fucking skull is cracked or your spine is bent so far backwards it might be a new chair, I don't think they are going to call it covid. There's a thing called finding the cause of death.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I like how I gave you a chance to redeem yourself and yet you still choose to be stupid. I don’t think there’s such a thing as evidence to validate an anti-vaccination stance. It’s just conspiracy bullshit that is followed by gullible pseudo-intellectuals with about as much evidence as the flat earth.

Oh no there isn't.

this video goes extremely indepth, well researched (about 143 sources in a google doc)
tl;dr
You know that thing called capitalism
Yeah... it was a capitalism moment. Basically doctor wanted to make money, so he created a conspiracy that the MMR vaccine in Europe caused autism, and some sort of irritable bowl syndrome which creates said autism. Same doctor then stated that just getting one vaccine for meseals would be safe. Despite the fact his supposed vaccine is targeting the same-thing that supposedly (by his statements) caused the irritable bowls and creating autism. Oh and then he also changed the work of his workers work multiple times, which resulted in those doctors asking for their names to be removed. And then also did unethical tests on kids, gave improper permission slip forms that did not include any of the possible long term complications.

Oh yeah and he also partners up with a revoked doctor, who believes his bone marrow can cure fucking autism. Oh and that revoked doctor got his license removed because abusing substances.
As a sidenote if someone is going to refute me about the capitalism part. Just copy your quote and move it to the capitalism v communism thread.

 

[tabzer]

Oh did we reach godwin point again? Man that was fast... Guess I shouldn't be surprised coming from someone who spreads misinformation about medical science and vaccines, and speaks the most stupid things about how you can "choose" to believe differently when things are scientifically proven, should I?

1st. I didn't compare medical science of the US to medical science of Nazis. I made the point that America took and use Nazi medical science.

2nd. If you want a comparison, check the US government going door to door looking for unvaccinated people.

3rd. I haven't spread misinformation. Being fearful and or unconvinced of the vaccine is a rational response.

4th:

@Lacius

 

[BitMasterPlus]

I like how I gave you a chance to redeem yourself and yet you still choose to be stupid. I don’t think there’s such a thing as evidence to validate an anti-vaccination stance. It’s just conspiracy bullshit that is followed by gullible pseudo-intellectuals with about as much evidence as the flat earth.

I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because you think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?

 

[Alexander1970]

that people who choose not to get vaccinated are willfully increasing the odds of getting sick and spreading sickness to others, potentially (and actually) killing people.

Ah...I see....

And also People who are not vaccinated against

- Flue
- Swine Flue
- Avian Avienze Flue

......

Ok,I understand now the Term "Every Human Being has a Opinion".

So WE People,we decide to NOT get vaccinated are selfish,egoistic,ruthless "Deathbringers",....

Wow,really great..


P.S. It is nothing personal against you and your Post,my Friend @Lacius

But this represents the Opinion of many,many,many,many People and what have we learned from the Past.

The majority is ALWAYS right...
(For Example 1933 - 1945)

 

[The Catboy]

I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because you think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?

Like I said before, no one is forcing you to stop being stupid

 

[Deleted User]

I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because you think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?

As Lilith said, no one's stopping you from being stupid. But as I want to add on
Nothing is stopping us from criticizing your rhetoric and or poor decisions

 

[notimp]

If you don't like wearing masks, get vaccinated. It's as simple as that. The vaccines are 80-95% effective against COVID-19, which is better than the protection you get with a mask, and the CDC guidance is that you don't have to wear a mask in most situations if you are fully vaccinated. It's a win-win.

Slight interjection, in other countries, and with the propagation of delta it isnt. Depending on the uptick in infection curves, masks may become, or stay mandatory in certain aspects of life (public transport), more likely when we are reaching the winter months again.

Masks and other mitigation measures are actually employed based on national infection progression curves and with delta active, we likely wont reach herd immunity numbers of vaccinations by the end of this year, so it is somewhat likely that we are repeating the entire mask wearing protocols in the winter months. At least in europe. But as the US runs into the same dangers of public health system overload, probably also in the US.

Part of reemploying mask wearing also will come down to citizen compliance, so the calculation probably will be made differently in the US. But as soon as you are seeing the curves rising into exponential territory again, mandates usually will be back. That said, US never had mask wearing mandates, right? It was just handled as a 'suggestion'? That was politicized for whatever reason?

Also - so far in our parts of europe we are not making a distinction in mask wearing based on wether you were fully vaccinated or not, as this prevents spread from people with asymptomatic infections, and probably increases overall compliance, because people would start pointing fingers at others not wearing them.. That said, we have other 'perks' for vaccinated people (or people who already had it once, or people who were tested (antigen tests) within three days), f.e. being able to go to restaurants, or into theatres and so on...


You are likely correct on the characterization of what drove Fauccis comments though. Masks were produced overseas, medical grade masks (above chirurgical mask quality) need to be produced using specialized equipment, meaning you couldnt ramp up production in the US, so the scramble for allocation of masks began. Gemany alone overpayed billions trying to allocate stock sooner ( https://www.thelocal.de/20210318/ge...-for-face-masks-costing-taxpayers-e2-billion/ ), US started to annex shipments from China intended for different countries, and fun stuff like that.

In the beginning. Then production ramped up.