Hacking Discussion Team Xecuter Attempted to Bribe RetroNX Developers

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SeongGino

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Things are never as simple as they appear son:
https://docs.libretro.com/tech/licenses/

So you're implying that they're going to basically make their own RetroArch?

Out of a port that's literally just RetroArch on Switch?
That's the conclusion you're coming to by saying that they can just build something out of the Libretro API and not use RetroArch at all.

Still didn't explain the whole "non-commercial cores" problem, yet, outside of just... not using the cores, or conveniently making a downloader for this non-RetroArch RetroArch-like frontend you're proposing.

And I still take offense to being treated like an idiot.
 

FAST6191

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This whole thread is a bunch of hearsay and bull until actual evidence of the above is posted.
Sure, but the more interesting aspects for me come from "assuming it is the case then". For that matter I should probably also throw in an "I am not a lawyer" seen as I am presently sitting in the US.

But it's inherently a breach of Libretro's GPL License, which makes it illegal and thus a clear bribe. TX was very well not going to make the end product free for non-commercial use nor open-source.

Plus, tbh, they completely forgot the whole purpose of Libretro -- not as a frontend for emulation, but as a library for developing games on. This would almost-certainly break this core facet of RA's being.

Discuss whether or not this is bribery, fine; but you can't say this is, in any way, legal.
The bit I saw had them making their own UI and TX looking to purchase that. Even if said UI was GPLed the author would still have the right to rescind it or simply drop it -- the currently ongoing spat in Linux kernel development hinging upon said concept. If said author was being paid to snapshot the open codebase, effectively create a private fork which then gets released closed only but wide then that would be a different matter and almost certainly contravene some legal regulations. Some seem to think that is what was taking place, personally I see the need for more context as it does not appear to be that or at least is rather ambiguous, to say nothing of the means they have to still release things open source but have it for most practical purposes tied to them.

On the matter of commercial use it has no real bearing on the GPL. Some of the other stuff in there does have commercial use restrictions (an earlier comment started to contemplate some workarounds for that*) but that is a different matter.

Similarly on the nature of purpose then I would point to the uncountable number of examples in software development of someone taking some obscure facet of a program, busting out the cheque book and it being the new focus. Spinning it a different way then something like the beats of rage engine being for fighting games or to "emulate" streets of rage is one thing, few would look at anything other than the emulation aspect here though.

*mame (or at least the older versions -- it went GPL a few years back) is the archetypal example of restricting commercial use in emulation. In those cases people still built "arcade game playing cabinets" and left it to end users to install MAME.

Well, until TX gets their act together and starts writing their own damn code to flaunt their exclusivity epeen, they're only doing it out of spite, or "because they can". I still fail to see why people support them in such a sycophantic manner. Not you, but a lot of people on here seem to.
This does not seem like a move out of spite. Direct financial self interest is the far more believable motive, both under basic logic and from what has been shared.

Similarly I don't know that I would claim sycophants. There are doubtless some fanboys that can't appreciate nuance but I would look at hyperbole so commonly issued from the TX is bad people set and people reacting to that. The overwhelming amount of discussion concerns said hyberbole from where I sit (which admittedly not the most comprehensive position -- I frequently join these sorts of threads but I don't make an effort to watch all of them like I might for various ROM hacking sections/discussions.
 

Riptide

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So you're implying that they're going to basically make their own RetroArch?

Out of a port that's literally just RetroArch on Switch?
That's the conclusion you're coming to by saying that they can just build something out of the Libretro API and not use RetroArch at all.

Still didn't explain the whole "non-commercial cores" problem, yet, outside of just... not using the cores, or conveniently making a downloader for this non-RetroArch RetroArch-like frontend you're proposing.

And I still take offense to being treated like an idiot.
All I said was that it was more complicated than a single GPLv3 license like you implied and linked to a post detailing how it could be done without violating any of said licenses. I'm not coming to any conclusions until the parties involved post the full convo, until then this thread is a waste of time.
 

comput3rus3r

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Sure, but the more interesting aspects for me come from "assuming it is the case then". For that matter I should probably also throw in an "I am not a lawyer" seen as I am presently sitting in the US.


The bit I saw had them making their own UI and TX looking to purchase that. Even if said UI was GPLed the author would still have the right to rescind it or simply drop it -- the currently ongoing spat in Linux kernel development hinging upon said concept. If said author was being paid to snapshot the open codebase, effectively create a private fork which then gets released closed only but wide then that would be a different matter and almost certainly contravene some legal regulations. Some seem to think that is what was taking place, personally I see the need for more context as it does not appear to be that or at least is rather ambiguous, to say nothing of the means they have to still release things open source but have it for most practical purposes tied to them.

On the matter of commercial use it has no real bearing on the GPL. Some of the other stuff in there does have commercial use restrictions (an earlier comment started to contemplate some workarounds for that*) but that is a different matter.

Similarly on the nature of purpose then I would point to the uncountable number of examples in software development of someone taking some obscure facet of a program, busting out the cheque book and it being the new focus. Spinning it a different way then something like the beats of rage engine being for fighting games or to "emulate" streets of rage is one thing, few would look at anything other than the emulation aspect here though.

*mame (or at least the older versions -- it went GPL a few years back) is the archetypal example of restricting commercial use in emulation. In those cases people still built "arcade game playing cabinets" and left it to end users to install MAME.


This does not seem like a move out of spite. Direct financial self interest is the far more believable motive, both under basic logic and from what has been shared.

Similarly I don't know that I would claim sycophants. There are doubtless some fanboys that can't appreciate nuance but I would look at hyperbole so commonly issued from the TX is bad people set and people reacting to that. The overwhelming amount of discussion concerns said hyberbole from where I sit (which admittedly not the most comprehensive position -- I frequently join these sorts of threads but I don't make an effort to watch all of them like I might for various ROM hacking sections/discussions.
I admire your ability to remove most, if not all emotional arguments in your writing. The lack of ad-hominem and other fallacies in your posts are a sharp contrast to the majority of other posts. If everybody could express themselves in such a calm, logical manner then this thread would not be 20 pages long. I'm gonna stop now before I sound like I'm brown-nosing. lol
 

JoeBloggs777

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Pretty sure if he was the one talking about profits, he would've been the one to approach TX first, not the other way around.



Because it's the fact that they instigated this nonsense about dropping FOSS projects to contribute to SX OS that this was brought up in the first place. Do all you want is just back-forth bickering between M4 and TX?

And even if he was to accept the deal; what would he gain from bad-mouthing them still? Sounds more like breaching of hypothetical contracts to me.

TX is hardly worth the effort contributing to, for profit or otherwise.

m4 has pasted parts from TX, now he's done that he should post all of the chat so people on here can decide for themselves . If he doesn't want to do that, he shouldn't have pasted selected parts in the first place.
 

mattytrog

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So, nutshell time...

SX told m4xw to stop open-source development immediately. Even offered him 6 grand.
He told them to fuck off.

The end.

About right?
 
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comput3rus3r

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So, nutshell time...

SX told m4xw to stop open-source development immediately. Even offered him 6 grand.
He told them to fuck off.

The end.

About right?
It's hard to tell since m4xw is not putting up the conversation
from what i gather it looks like he asked for money.
Maybe he was upset it was only $6,000.
 

xiaNaix

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So, nutshell time...

SX told m4xw to stop open-source development immediately. Even offered him 6 grand.
He told them to fuck off.

The end.

About right?

Not right at all.

In the chatlogs I saw, they never asked him to stop open-source development. In fact, they talked about things they could do, like integrating the romlist into the SX OS menu, that would differentiate the two builds. There was also discussion of whether or not RetroNX access would be locked to the paid version of SX OS or free for everyone and it was agreed to be free. m4xw liked that idea and agreed to lower his price for coding work since it would not be behind a paywall, so to speak.

I don't want to get into too much detail since the chatlogs aren't mine to release, but I didn't see anything "nefarious" about this arrangement from what I read. It's unfortunate that it's been portrayed as a "bribe" when it seems like nothing of the sort actually transpired.
 
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Not right at all.

In the chatlogs I saw, they never asked him to stop open-source development. In fact, they talked about things they could do, like integrating the romlist into the SX OS menu, that would differentiate the two builds. There was also discussion of whether or not RetroNX access would be locked to the paid version of SX OS or free for everyone and it was agreed to be free. m4xw liked that idea and agreed to lower his price for coding work since it would not be behind a paywall, so to speak.

I don't want to get into too much detail since the chatlogs aren't mine to release, but I didn't see anything "nefarious" about this arrangement from what I read. It's unfortunate that it's been portrayed as a "bribe" when it seems like nothing of the sort actually transpired.

So it again sounds like m4xw set the price
 
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It just portrays a different picture about what kind of character m4xw is
 
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Verack

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What difference does that make? Anyone who is going to be writing code for a commercial product should be paid.
And certainly they should. The problem here is everyone has an absolute raging hard-on for hating SXOS to the point that everything they do is Satanic. Having the actual facts in the open (SX offered multiple options, and m4xw was the one who wanted money) means it's far less of a "bribe" and sounds far more like someone got mad he wasn't offered enough money and tried to smear SX's name as revenge.
 

mattytrog

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OK... So it would be free at the point of use. Fair enough.

In a way, you can`t blame TX for wanting something exclusive and offering good money. Especially if it was going to be free to the end-user.

It would have sold a load more dongles before those electrolytic caps went dry in storage...

So what is the problem?

It seems to me the guy is damned both ways...

damned if he does for siding with the devil - which is TX apparently.
damned if he doesn`t as he gets a load of Social Justice Warriors demanding to see chat logs or something as proof. And saying something was said in a PRIVATE CONVERSATION between some individuals.

And the guy (albeit selectively) comes on trying to give his side of things.

Who the fuck cares? What`s changed since we woke up this morning? Is RetroNX now a TX product? Nope.

Maybe I`m being overly flippant but 20 pages... Arguing over the colour of shyte...

Is it me?

Bloody hell someone in this thread has got bigger tits than my mother-in-law. Last time I saw breasticles like that was on german channel RTL "svei" followed by a 1900 number...
 
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Verack

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I'm sure TX is full of honest people, too.
The point being made here is there are no heroes involved. What TX does certainly falls into the gray zone of legality (or even the illegal zone, depending on how you look at it). The issue at hand is how the people with their "homebrew" like to perpetually pretend they're honest saints with no smear on their own hands. The reality though is the following:
1.) Don't kid yourself, you're doing something that violates the TOS Nintendo set forth.
2.) You're enabling piracy just as much as TX is. Don't kid yourself into thinking just because the game is 30+ years old it's somehow not piracy.
3.) They attempt to take a moral high ground by claiming they're noble for doing X on a console, while TX is evil for doing X(1) on a console (the difference between enabling piracy of an old game VS enabling piracy of a new game).

I'm perpetually irritated by people who seem to have this nonsensical belief that just because they're "emulating" an old game, it's somehow not as evil or sinister as pirating a brand new game.
 

JoeBloggs777

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damned if he doesn`t as he gets a load of Social Justice Warriors demanding to see chat logs or something as proof. And saying something was said in a PRIVATE CONVERSATION between some individuals.
he said he was bribed and then starts posting selected parts from that PRIVATE CONVERSATION, so why not post it all.
 
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