Gaming Persona 5 - no screenshots/gameplay recording and Atlus threatening streamers.

[Luckkill4u]

My biggest gripe about Persona 5 is Atlus blocking the share feature on the PS4. I know other games like the Kingdom Hearts remix for PS4 blocked screenshots/recordin on some scenes so Atlus isn't the first to disable the feature.


Atlus is taking it a step further by threatening streamers that spoil content of the game and everything past 7/7 (July 7th game time)

If you decide to stream past 7/7 (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND NOT DOING THIS, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED), you do so at the risk of being issued a content ID claim or worse, a channel strike/account suspension

- Atlus.com

http://atlus.com/note-persona-5-streaming/

Personally I think this is taking the whole "protect your IP" way too far... Atlus may be the King of RPGs and need to make profit on their games but putting restrictions on such things is ridiculous IMO. Makes me want to break into that big palace Atlus is sitting on and steal their heart.

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[Meteor7]

Well, to play devil's advocate, I can actually understand this demand. This game's draw is not its gameplay, but the story, visuals, and music. It's more along the lines of an anime with some playable bits than a video game, and while streaming content for most video games doesn't convey the core of the experience to another person, for this one I feel like it would, and it would cut down on sales of the game the same way if an anime were published on Youtube for free in its entirety, it would cut down on the anime's legitimate sales. I hate publishers pushing their customers around as much as the next guy, but I'm actually on-board for this one.

 

[s157]

Well, to play devil's advocate, I can actually understand this demand. This game's draw is not its gameplay, but the story, visuals, and music. It's more along the lines of an anime with some playable bits than a video game, and while streaming content for most video games doesn't convey the core of the experience to another person, for this one I feel like it would, and it would cut down on sales of the game the same way if an anime were published on Youtube for free in its entirety, it would cut down on the anime's legitimate sales. I hate publishers pushing their customers around as much as the next guy, but I'm actually on-board for this one.

Agreed with, 100%. Hell if I had the patience to watch a streamer play all of a persona game, I'd probably have no interest in picking up the game. Playing it now and liking it, but from what I see so far people watching me play it aren't missing TOO much than if they were playing it themselves.

 

[DS1]

Just like that stupid "sexist" interview with the producer, I don't think anybody actually understands what's going on here. Atlus isn't protecting their IP in the way that the RIAJ blocks people from using Japanese music in streams or whatever. This is unfortunately 150 HOUR LONG game with a few huge HOLY SHIT OMG WTF amazing moments that require hours upon hours of build-up to really appreciate.

Like imagine if, at the beginning of Star Wars: A New Hope, when Darth Vader comes on screen, some dude just shouted "that's the main character's father!!", and you spend a year wondering what the hell he meant, only to reach the end of the Empire Strikes Back and be completely nonplussed by the century's greatest plot twist. (OK so not a great example, but I don't know what kids are into these days, use your imagination).

The real counter-argument here is, "Hey Atlus, you should have made your game shorter and not relied so much on plot-twists and superficial build-up to keep people's interest!" But people are gonna buy and play the game regardless, so don't be a jerk and spoil it. I'm really grateful nobody spoiled the game for me during my completely blind playthrough because I think even 50 hours is a lot to invest on one single plotline, much less 3x that!

 

[Meteor7]

Just like that stupid "sexist" interview with the producer, I don't think anybody actually understands what's going on here. Atlus isn't protecting their IP in the way that the RIAJ blocks people from using Japanese music in streams or whatever. This is unfortunately 150 HOUR LONG game with a few huge HOLY SHIT OMG WTF amazing moments that require hours upon hours of build-up to really appreciate.

Like imagine if, at the beginning of Star Wars: A New Hope, when Darth Vader comes on screen, some dude just shouted "that's the main character's father!!", and you spend a year wondering what the hell he meant, only to reach the end of the Empire Strikes Back and be completely nonplussed by the century's greatest plot twist. (OK so not a great example, but I don't know what kids are into these days, use your imagination).

The real counter-argument here is, "Hey Atlus, you should have made your game shorter and not relied so much on plot-twists and superficial build-up to keep people's interest!" But people are gonna buy and play the game regardless, so don't be a jerk and spoil it. I'm really grateful nobody spoiled the game for me during my completely blind playthrough because I think even 50 hours is a lot to invest on one single plotline, much less 3x that!

I appreciate the desire to stay spoiler-free of course, but I highly doubt Atlus's executives care about anything that doesn't affect their profit margin. They aren't going to threaten to take legal action just for the sake of the consumer's enjoyment of their game, but they absolutely would if they felt that people who were spoiled on the story, music, and art would be less inclined to purchase the game for themselves. They're protecting their own potential sales, and rightfully so, but we shouldn't have any illusions as to their motives.

 

[guisadop]

That's a terrible decision by Atlus IMO. Do they not want other people to know the MC dies at the end?

 

[DS1]

I appreciate the desire to stay spoiler-free of course, but I highly doubt Atlus's executives care about anything that doesn't affect their profit margin. They aren't going to threaten to take legal action just for the sake of the consumer's enjoyment of their game, but they absolutely would if they felt that people who were spoiled on the story, music, and art would be less inclined to purchase the game for themselves. They're protecting their own potential sales, and rightfully so, but we shouldn't have any illusions as to their motives.

If this were true, Atlus would stream the game themselves with paid advertisements. More people will watch a free stream with advertisements than will ever buy the game (this is how sites like Crunchy Roll can stream brand new anime for free - the producers make more money from paid advertising than the site ever does through subscriptions).

 

[Luckkill4u]

I understand why Atlus doesn't want people to record/stream gameplay. It's a linear game and from my understanding each playthrough is the same. Fair enough just ask people not to stream but threatening a content ID claim or account suspension is past ridiculous. Since I bought this game I feel like I have the right to do what I want with it. It's like buying a new car but not being able to take pictures of it. These copyright laws are fucking ridiculous. If people want to watch a stream or let's play of this game it's unlikely they are going to buy the game any time soon anyways. I find it hypocritical because Persona 5 is about breaking away the oppressive shackles and Atlus slaps these same shackles onto you when you buy the game!

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[eriol33]

I think it's fair enough, atlus invested 9 years to develop persona 5 and they invested a lot in story than anything else. any reveal of plot twist will spoil the game for everyone. it's like spoiling the magician's trick. I am sure they will change the policy maybe few years after the game is released, but for now, it's fair enough they want to keep the internet as spoiler free as possible so people are interested and buy the game. I am myself have been actively avoiding spoilers too.

 

[Luckkill4u]

I think it's fair enough, atlus invested 9 years to develop persona 5 and they invested a lot in story than anything else. any reveal of plot twist will spoil the game for everyone. it's like spoiling the magician's trick. I am sure they will change the policy maybe few years after the game is released, but for now, it's fair enough they want to keep the internet as spoiler free as possible so people are interested and buy the game. I am myself have been actively avoiding spoilers too.

Except the story has already been spoiled on the megami tensei wiki and other forms of media. People in Japan have already been playing the game for 6 months. If someone doesn't want the story to be spoiled then why would you want to watch a stream or lets play of the game? Spoilers are only there for people looking for it. Facebook communities and other media communities ban all who spoil the game. It just seems redundant to threaten gamers for using something that's widely accepted in the gaming community. Especially when it's so easy to find those spoilers on the wiki site.

 

[wolfmankurd]

I think it's fair enough, atlus invested 9 years to develop persona 5 and they invested a lot in story than anything else. any reveal of plot twist will spoil the game for everyone. it's like spoiling the magician's trick. I am sure they will change the policy maybe few years after the game is released, but for now, it's fair enough they want to keep the internet as spoiler free as possible so people are interested and buy the game. I am myself have been actively avoiding spoilers too.

A spoiler is "Hey! Did you watch the United beat Arsenal?", it's unwelcome, it's unexpected and it's unstoppable. If you've been watching a stream and see plot that's not a spoiler. Don't want a spoiler don't watch the stream.

Atlus has created a game people would rather watch than play and they are using copyright violations to bypass the law and get their way. That's a douche move in my book.

 

[_______]

They updated the rules: http://atlus.com/update-persona-5-streaming/

When Persona 5 launched, we put out a set of video/streaming guidelines that we hoped would limit online spoilers for fans who have yet to play the game.

To our surprise, we then saw numerous reactive news articles go up, opinion videos post, and received many emails asking us to please change our Persona 5 streaming/video policy. We recognize that our fans are the reason why the game is the major worldwide success it is, and we continue to want them to be able to enjoy the game without fear of being spoiled. However, we also heard your issues with the guidelines and have decided to revise them. Because we want to give players the most access to the game while respecting the original goal, we’re now asking players to refrain from streaming or posting video past the end of the in-game date of 11/19—when the main story gears up for the final act.

We also want to apologize to those of you who saw the previous guidelines blog post as threatening. We want to be transparent about what we do, and the reason we released the guidelines was to give streamers the right information up front. It was never our intention to threaten people with copyright strikes, but we clearly chose the wrong tone for how to communicate this.

Lastly, we want to thank our fans around the world for supporting Persona 5 and ATLUS. The game is a global success because of your passion for the series, and we’re happy that so many of you are enjoying it.

It's not the first time we saw a Japanese company that does this. Afaik 龍が如く6 (Yakuza 6) did the same too. But if you got the needed equipments you can still capture screenshots or gameplay. You still can find clips of P5 on YouTube. Personally, I'm against such dumb moves by those developers. The game was released for so long and it's on PS3 too, which means people can do anything at this point.

 

[Pedeadstrian]

Except the story has already been spoiled on the megami tensei wiki and other forms of media. People in Japan have already been playing the game for 6 months. If someone doesn't want the story to be spoiled then why would you want to watch a stream or lets play of the game? Spoilers are only there for people looking for it. Facebook communities and other media communities ban all who spoil the game. It just seems redundant to threaten gamers for using something that's widely accepted in the gaming community. Especially when it's so easy to find those spoilers on the wiki site.

I intentionally avoided the megaten wiki for that exact reason, even if I wanted to look up info for another game in the franchise. But that's not the only problem.

A spoiler is "Hey! Did you watch the United beat Arsenal?", it's unwelcome, it's unexpected and it's unstoppable. If you've been watching a stream and see plot that's not a spoiler. Don't want a spoiler don't watch the stream.

Atlus has created a game people would rather watch than play and they are using copyright violations to bypass the law and get their way. That's a douche move in my book.

The problem is that spoilers are so easy to come by, and avoiding them is not as simple as "don't watch the stream." I usually watch Game of Thrones online after it airs that night or the following day. I have to personally make a media blackout in my house to avoid the numerous posts on Facebook, Imgur, Youtube, and heck, even here sometimes. In fact, I avoided going to GameFAQs (yeah, yeah, I know) for the first couple of weeks after Persona 5 came out because I was afraid of finding spoilers from people who were playing more than me.

Also, what law exactly is Atlus bypassing? If you were to read software ToS and all that you would probably find somewhere where it says that the game is licensed "for home use only," or at least that's what they used to say before the internet became so omnipresent. A lawyer could probably make the case that the content creator has say over how/when their content is shared publicly. I'd prefer to see people stop doing stupid things like putting major plot points in Youtube thumbnails, titles, and descriptions so people could freely make Let's Plays, but until that happens I'm fine with what Atlus is doing.

 

[wolfmankurd]

Also, what law exactly is Atlus bypassing? If you were to read software ToS and all that you would probably find somewhere where it says that the game is licensed "for home use only," or at least that's what they used to say before the internet became so omnipresent.

Specifically atlas is bylassing US fair usage laws likely in court they would argue that a let's play present a a substantial portion of their work. But this isn't proven Atlus bypasses this law by using DMCA to take it down no questions asked.

A ToS can not remove your right to fair use. Atlus doesn't provide a service here, p5 is a product. Without an NDA they can't limit how much you discuss the game.


To see the foolishness of atlus ways I could make a video on youtube discussing the plot points and they could not take it down (youtube might buckle to their pressure and remove it but this would not be DMCA legal).
Atlus have no way to stop users spreading spoilers but are using their corporate weight to push innocent users around.

 

[Pedeadstrian]

Specifically atlas is bylassing US fair usage laws likely in court they would argue that a let's play present a a substantial portion of their work. But this isn't proven Atlus bypasses this law by using DMCA to take it down no questions asked.

A ToS can not remove your right to fair use. Atlus doesn't provide a service here, p5 is a product. Without an NDA they can't limit how much you discuss the game.


To see the foolishness of atlus ways I could make a video on youtube discussing the plot points and they could not take it down (youtube might buckle to their pressure and remove it but this would not be DMCA legal).
Atlus have no way to stop users spreading spoilers but are using their corporate weight to push innocent users around.

You can't just say Atlus "bypasses" fair use laws if they're in regards to things that are not, or at least, could very easily be considered not fair use.

Courts look at how the party claiming fair use is using the copyrighted work, and are more likely to find that nonprofit educational and noncommercial uses are fair. This does not mean, however, that all nonprofit education and noncommercial uses are fair and all commercial uses are not fair

People like to shout "fair use" as soon as they believe anyone infringes their rights, but often assume that just because a Youtube video isn't monetized that they can do anything they want.

Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole: Under this factor, courts look at both the quantity and quality of the copyrighted material that was used. If the use includes a large portion of the copyrighted work, fair use is less likely to be found; if the use employs only a small amount of copyrighted material, fair use is more likely. ...And in other contexts, using even a small amount of a copyrighted work was determined not to be fair because the selection was an important part—or the “heart”—of the work.

By definition, streaming an entire game includes a large portion of the copyrighted work... in this case, all of it. Atlus isn't going after people who post a screenshot of Morgana saying "Let's not do that today" when trying to do activities at night.

Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work: Here, courts review whether, and to what extent, the unlicensed use harms the existing or future market for the copyright owner’s original work.

Persona games are, in essence, story games with action tied into them, not action games with a little bit of story. It's largely presented as a visual novel, and a game that took me 103 hours to beat easily has less than half of that dedicated to combat. By doing a full stream or Let's Play the streamer is essentially giving the majority of the game out to the public for free. I highly doubt that the people who buy Persona games solely for the actual gameplay are anything more than a small minority. If someone were to watch a "movie version" of a story-heavy RPG on Youtube, they are far less likely to want to buy the game themselves, because they basically already experienced it. I mean, how many people pirate a movie that is currently in the theaters and then go and pay full price for a ticket to watch it again?

 

[wolfmankurd]

You can't just say Atlus "bypasses" fair use laws if they're in regards to things that are not, or at least, could very easily be considered not fair use.

People like to shout "fair use" as soon as they believe anyone infringes their rights, but often assume that just because a Youtube video isn't monetized that they can do anything they want.

By definition, streaming an entire game includes a large portion of the copyrighted work... in this case, all of it. Atlus isn't going after people who post a screenshot of Morgana saying "Let's not do that today" when trying to do activities at night.

Persona games are, in essence, story games with action tied into them, not action games with a little bit of story. It's largely presented as a visual novel, and a game that took me 103 hours to beat easily has less than half of that dedicated to combat. By doing a full stream or Let's Play the streamer is essentially giving the majority of the game out to the public for free. I highly doubt that the people who buy Persona games solely for the actual gameplay are anything more than a small minority. If someone were to watch a "movie version" of a story-heavy RPG on Youtube, they are far less likely to want to buy the game themselves, because they basically already experienced it. I mean, how many people pirate a movie that is currently in the theaters and then go and pay full price for a ticket to watch

You can't just say Atlus "bypasses" fair use laws if they're in regards to things that are not, or at least, could very easily be considered not fair use.

People like to shout "fair use" as soon as they believe anyone infringes their rights, but often assume that just because a Youtube video isn't monetized that they can do anything they want.

By definition, streaming an entire game includes a large portion of the copyrighted work... in this case, all of it. Atlus isn't going after people who post a screenshot of Morgana saying "Let's not do that today" when trying to do activities at night.

Persona games are, in essence, story games with action tied into them, not action games with a little bit of story. It's largely presented as a visual novel, and a game that took me 103 hours to beat easily has less than half of that dedicated to combat. By doing a full stream or Let's Play the streamer is essentially giving the majority of the game out to the public for free. I highly doubt that the people who buy Persona games solely for the actual gameplay are anything more than a small minority. If someone were to watch a "movie version" of a story-heavy RPG on Youtube, they are far less likely to want to buy the game themselves, because they basically already experienced it. I mean, how many people pirate a movie that is currently in the theaters and then go and pay full price for a ticket to watch it again?

Your really think everyone who's videos were taken down streamed the entirety of p5 (likely over 100hour game). I think it is likely that each individual video constituted a small portion of the game.

Your interpretation opens the door for every small sample of a song to be taken down from YouTube because the combined amount constitutes a large portion of the song.

You take as though Atlus's restrictions are limited but if you look at the guidance it's clear that large portions of the game can not be streamed in any way http://atlus.com/note-persona-5-streaming/

These are not state secrets, if I want to say plot point X is crap, atlus thinks it can stop me. And they will because I don't have the money or power to fight a copyright strike.

 

[Pedeadstrian]

Your really think everyone who's videos were taken down streamed the entirety of p5 (likely over 100hour game). I think it is likely that each individual video constituted a small portion of the game..

You were the one who originally brought up streams, and since no one's going to stream 10 minutes of filler content, I argued against your stance.

Your interpretation opens the door for every small sample of a song to be taken down from YouTube because the combined amount constitutes a large portion of the song.

Ah, yes, the slippery slope. My old nemesis... anywhoo, my argument was simply about streams, since again, that was your initial case. But if I'm going to mimic your argument, I'll say this: your interpretation opens the door for one person to upload 36,000 10-second clips because "each individual video constituted a small portion of the game.."

You take as though Atlus's restrictions are limited but if you look at the guidance it's clear that large portions of the game can not be streamed in any way http://atlus.com/note-persona-5-streaming/

I did look at the guidance, and they said you could show the vast majority of the combat in the game, which brings me back to my previous post where I talked about being the story being the main part of the game. Their rules are clearly in line with my previous post, as they don't want people to just watch the "movie version" of the game since the chances of people buying the game afterwards are slim.

I'll even share an anecdote about this particular situation. I talked about Persona 5 alot to my good friend both before and after the game came out, saying how excited I was, how I enjoyed it, etc., since she has similar tastes in video games, and she said that it looked really good and was going to get it. Then her boyfriend decides to get it, and often when she'd go over to his house he'd be playing it (kinda dickish move on his part, but I digress), and she ended up watching him play it a lot. So much so, in fact, that she learned a lot about the plot and twists, and now she doesn't have nearly as much desire to play the game (at least for quite a while) because "she already experienced it."

These are not state secrets, if I want to say plot point X is crap, atlus thinks it can stop me. And they will because I don't have the money or power to fight a copyright strike.

No one is stopping you from talking about major plot points of the game to your friends, random strangers you meet in person, or heck, random strangers you meet online, i.e. here (though you'd be a dick if any of those instances were unsolicited). You just can't make videos/streams about/containing them. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that Atlus has every right to dictate what is done with their IP when it comes to sharing with thousands, if not millions of people.

 

[wolfmankurd]

You were the one who originally brought up streams, and since no one's going to stream 10 minutes of filler content, I argued against your stance.

Ah, yes, the slippery slope. My old nemesis... anywhoo, my argument was simply about streams, since again, that was your initial case. But if I'm going to mimic your argument, I'll say this: your interpretation opens the door for one person to upload 36,000 10-second clips because "each individual video constituted a small portion of the game.."

I did look at the guidance, and they said you could show the vast majority of the combat in the game, which brings me back to my previous post where I talked about being the story being the main part of the game. Their rules are clearly in line with my previous post, as they don't want people to just watch the "movie version" of the game since the chances of people buying the game afterwards are slim.

No one is stopping you from talking about major plot points of the game to your friends, random strangers you meet in person, or heck, random strangers you meet online, i.e. here (though you'd be a dick if any of those instances were unsolicited). You just can't make videos/streams about/containing them. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that Atlus has every right to dictate what is done with their IP when it comes to sharing with thousands, if not millions of people.

If you think Atlus is justified in limiting my freedom of speech to *talk* about their game then I think we will have to agree to disagree before I have a stroke.

What world would we live in if we allowed companies to tell us not only how we can enjoy a game we paid for but what we say about it?!

 

[Pedeadstrian]

If you think Atlus is justified in limiting my freedom of speech to *talk* about their game then I think we will have to agree to disagree before I have a stroke.

What world would we live in if we allowed companies to tell us not only how we can enjoy a game we paid for but what we say about it?!

First of all, freedom of speech /=/ freedom of speech without consequences. You have every right to say that you're going to assassinate the queen, but that doesn't stop her guards from tackling you, jailing you, etc. And like I said in my post, I don't agree with what Atlus is doing. All I'm saying is that your cry of "fair use" doesn't mean people can do anything they want. I bet you'd be crying a much different tune if instead of Persona 5's major plot twists you were to have the next Star Wars movie come out and a video with the title "Luke kills Kylo Ren" containing video of such were to be posted and shared everywhere the day the movie came out.

Now you're starting to talk about Atlus and their over-reach as if it were some kind of Orwellian, 1984-esque occurrence. I'll take that and your "agree to disagree before I have a stroke" as an "I give up" though.

 

[wolfmankurd]

I'll take that and your "agree to disagree before I have a stroke" as an "I give up" though.

You can take it more like I don't care what you or Altus think and now streamers are standing up it's what the local courts think that matters.

No point arguing opinion when we're about to find out. I'm sure atlas will buckle even faster than Nintendo.