The Vaccination Thread

[Gahars]

...because we needed one.

A discussion broke out on this thread, and while I'd like to continue it, I don't want to derail the topic anymore.

Do you have children? I have a 22 month old son who was born with heart complications. Once we were out of the hospital and home we had a happy baby. We went to the pediatrician for our scheduled visits. One day, we're waiting in the room for the doctor and a nurse comes in and sticks him with a needle without saying a word to my wife or I. We asked what the hell she just gave him. She said his first round of immunizations. We were pissed because it was something we hadn't yet decided on and this lady just walks in and sticks our kid...

For the next month (yes, month) our son was lethargic, didn't sleep, was very ornery, and had an elevated heartrate. We knew his heartrate was elevated because we monitored it 5 times a day from his birth through his first birthday. This child was miserable. We called the pediatrician's office only to hear, "It's normal...It's normal". Well, we have a child with a heart condition, we don't want this "normal" side-effect... After a month he's mostly settled but now it's time for his next round. We went to the pediatrician for his check-up and told them we wanted to wait and space these out more. They told us if they weren't allowed to do it on their schedule they would no longer see him. We told them to fuck off and switched doctors.

I think Densetsu, or someone else with a background in medicine would be able to respond to this more specifically.

That being said, forgive me for being somewhat skeptical. Can doctors make mistakes? Absolutely, but they are also trained professionals with years upon years of experience and rigorous study. You worry for you child, I can sympathize, but that can lead to rash judgements and irrational leaps. There may have been other factors at play that you haven't considered.

(Not to mention Wolvenreign's point about anecdotal evidence - those articles are well worth reading.)

Now look at the recalls these past few years of vaccines because of mislabeled containers, metal flakes in the glass/plastic container, foreign objects... Is that a chance you're willing to take on your kid? "Well they say it's safe... But the medical community as a whole is minutely conflicted about it... And they have broken down and said that vaccines could exacerbate some "pre-existing conditions"... But we have no idea if our kid has any of these "pre-existing conditions"... Well, what the hell; what's the worst that can happen..."

These incidents you're citing are extremely rare or misrepresented by the anti-vaccine community. Are there risks? Sure, but they're unbelievably remote. Your child is much, much more endangered by the diseases and ailments they're exposed without vaccination.

You scoffed at the Wiki before, but it truly has great, cited data on the subject.

Call it hysteria all you want, but these are people fearing for their children regarding science that is not 100%.

Love and hysteria can go hand in hand. Good intentions doesn't necessarily equate to rationality and clear-thinking.

I should know.

I don't have children of my own, but I understand the mindset. My younger brother was born severely Autistic; even to this day he is nonverbal. He has to live in a residential home 45 minutes from our house because we just couldn't take care of him on our own.

My mother jumped on the anti-vaccine bandwagon for quite awhile. She's normally a smart, rational person, but even she bought into it. I think she just wanted some explanation, something to pin the blame on, for how this could happen to her. "Shitty luck with genetics" just wouldn't do.

So I get the mindset, I really do. I can only thank my lucky stars that I never get sick from any of the vaccinations I missed (mercury was her big sticking point, and she would refuse any vaccination with even a hint of it). But it scares me to think that I could have gotten sick, and it scares me even more to know that people are getting sick - many of whom are children with no say in the matter - because of this. It scares me to know that celebrities like Jenny McCarthy are throwing millions upon millions of dollars at campaigns built around misdirection and half-truths. And it scares me that we're seeing whooping cough and other such ailments on the rise again.

Do they mean well? Of course, but that doesn't make it any less ignorant or, potentially, deadly.

You want what's best for your child, I understand that, but crusading against windmills will do nothing for him.

 

[Wolvenreign]

(This is a repost of what I had posted after Gahars had suggested we move the discussion. I hadn't seen it until after I'd finished posting.)

The fact is, Wrettcaughn, a larger sample size than one with a double-blind peer reviewed standard is still more empirical than a simple story. Indeed, where did you get that particular bit of information? Perhaps I can have a look at it.

In addition, do you not think it presumptuous to assume that these other members do not know what it means to care about life outside of their own? Perhaps many of them are parents, or have had little brothers or sisters. And, indeed, when you attack someone based on their person rather than their stance, you are committing another logical fallacy known as ad hominem.

Fear is a powerful enemy. It is one which clouds judgement and causes mistrust outside of your own level of thinking and observation. It stops people from understanding that accurate knowledge isn't always intuitive. Indeed, most of the time it isn't. We are, after all, creatures of evolution, which always takes the path of least resistance as surely as gravity causes objects to plummet to the earth. There is nothing supernatural about our comprehension which allows us to divine the truth. Even science is fundamentally unsure of itself, yet it is the most probable and demonstrable path to understanding the world as it is.

To those who would read this, I would say; don't be afraid. Be curious. Doubt is your friend, even doubting your own way of thinking can be used to improve it.

 

[SifJar]

For the next month (yes, month) our son was lethargic, didn't sleep, was very ornery, and had an elevated heartrate. We knew his heartrate was elevated because we monitored it 5 times a day from his birth through his first birthday. This child was miserable. We called the pediatrician's office only to hear, "It's normal...It's normal". Well, we have a child with a heart condition, we don't want this "normal" side-effect... After a month he's mostly settled but now it's time for his next round. We went to the pediatrician for his check-up and told them we wanted to wait and space these out more. They told us if they weren't allowed to do it on their schedule they would no longer see him. We told them to fuck off and switched doctors.

I completely understand your anger/disappointment at your son's discomfort, but my response would be that it is almost certainly nothing compared to some of the diseases that he could have contracted without the vaccines. A child's immune system is very underdeveloped compared to an adult's, they are therefore obviously much more susceptible to disease (one of the reasons vaccines are administered to infants). While it's completely possible he wouldn't have caught anything, to my mind it is much better to have an increased chance of a minor aliment than to be left at risk of a serious condition.

The doctors at the paediatrician's office are probably highly trained professionals, when they say a side effect is normal, it probably is. Is it ideal? No. But it's certainly better than the child being at risk of a potentially life-threatening disease. There have been years of tests (lab and real world) for these vaccines, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no good, solid evidence of any harm arising from them. To be completely honest, Gahars other thread was the first time I had even heard there was any serious opposition to vaccines.

Now look at the recalls these past few years of vaccines because of mislabeled containers, metal flakes in the glass/plastic container, foreign objects... Is that a chance you're willing to take on your kid? "Well they say it's safe... But the medical community as a whole is minutely conflicted about it... And they have broken down and said that vaccines could exacerbate some "pre-existing conditions"... But we have no idea if our kid has any of these "pre-existing conditions"... Well, what the hell; what's the worst that can happen..."

As was mentioned in the other thread, any time humans are involved, human error is involved. More and more things are becoming automated these days, and provided this is done correctly, this should greatly reduce human error (or I suppose amplify it, if there is an error in the automation then multiple entire batches could be ruined before the mistake is noticed).

 

[Wolvenreign]

Excellent post, SifJar, though I will say it is possible for automation to stop and correct itself on a precisely routine basis, and that great amounts of testing would need to be done before any given automation is deployed.

 

[retKHAAAN]

I forgot to mention in the post Gahars quoted that the area around the injection site was very swollen and hot to the touch for 10 days. I'm not anti-vaccine. I am, however, concerned about the ingredients and would like to know exactly what people are injecting into my child. As I mentioned in previous posts on the subject, Thimerosal is approx 50% mercury and is still used in vaccines despite numerous groups and agencies (including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the FDA) suggesting it be removed as soon as possible. 4 out of 9 currently manufactured flu vaccines contain mercury. Do you know which of the 9 you're getting? Are you cool with that?

Now also keep in mind that the FDA admits that the side-effects they've observed could also be the result of any other ingredient...they admit that "In a clinical setting, however, it is usually not possible to determine whether local reactions (such as the crazy swelling of my son's leg) are caused by thimerosal or other vaccine components"...

source:
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm

 

[Fishaman P]

I've had my major vaccinations, like Polio and all that, but I've never had a flu shot in my life.

About the nurse just sticking it in the child (get your mind out of the gutter, sicko), that was COMPLETELY unacceptable, and she should be under review, if not fired.

 

[Densetsu]

Every single drug you put into your body, be it prescription or over the counter, is essentially a poison. I'd be a fool to deny that. Of course, all doctors know this as well. Every drug has side effects, and there are no exceptions to this. The more important question to consider when taking a medicine is, "do the benefits outweigh the risks?" For every vaccination that is in widespread use today, the answer to that question is "yes."

@Densetsu
Nowhere did I say that vaccines don't work.

You're absolutely right, there was nowhere in that thread where you said that they don't work. I didn't direct my comment specifically at you; I was just saying it in general. When I direct a comment at someone, I always quote the comment I'm responding to.

Why not package them all in individual doses rather than multidose containers?

Are you referring to serial vaccinations where you have to keep going back to get one every so many months?

The answer to that question depends on which vaccine you're talking about, since different vaccines work through different mechanisms. Some vaccines are live attenuated virus, some are killed virus, some are just toxoids, etc. They all work in different ways, so there's no one answer to that question that would apply to all vaccines.

You can get one dose of a certain vaccine and be protected for life, while other vaccines need booster shots every several years (e.g., tetanus) in order to stay protected. No one actually knows why some vaccines work better than others. There are several theories as to why this is the case, but research has been inconclusive. The only thing we're sure of is that they work well enough to justify their continued use.

*EDIT*
Regarding thimerosal, it's my understanding that it's not used anymore. I'm kind of confused as to why it would still be in use, to be honest. I thought hospitals stopped the routine use of thimerosal over a decade ago.

 

[retKHAAAN]

Are you referring to serial vaccinations where you have to keep going back to get one every so many months?

The answer to that question depends on which vaccine you're talking about, since different vaccines work through different mechanisms. Some vaccines are live attenuated virus, some are killed virus, some are just toxoids, etc.

You can get one dose of a certain vaccine and be protected for life, while other vaccines need booster shots every several years (e.g., tetanus) in order to stay protected. No one actually knows why some vaccines work better than others. There are several theories as to why this is the case, but research has been inconclusive. The only thing we're sure of is that they work well enough to justify their continued use.

I'm refering to vaccines packaged in "bulk". A single larger container holding multiple doses of the same drug to be administered to multiple patients rather than a single injection. It's these types that contain the harmful preservatives, that get recalled for foreign matter... The single injections don't break down as quickly and don't need as much garbage in them. I understand cost benefits of packaging larger quantities, but when the FDA is saying "Hey, we don't like that you're using this ingredient...but...what the hell, go ahead and use it anyway" it kind of makes you wonder what else they might be letting slip through...

There's so much money in vaccines, just like any other medicines though... You might go to Target and get a free flu shot, but it's being subsidized somehow. And everyone is asked to get vaccinated.

 

[Lanlan]

My little sister passed away because of vaccinations, at one year and one week old.

 

[Densetsu]

I'm refering to vaccines packaged in "bulk". A single larger container holding multiple doses of the same drug to be administered to multiple patients rather than a single injection. It's these types that contain the harmful preservatives, that get recalled for foreign matter... The single injections don't break down as quickly and don't need as much garbage in them. I understand cost benefits of packaging larger quantities, but when the FDA is saying "Hey, we don't like that you're using this ingredient...but...what the hell, go ahead and use it anyway" it kind of makes you wonder what else they might be letting slip through...

There's so much money in vaccines, just like any other medicines though... You might go to Target and get a free flu shot, but it's being subsidized somehow. And everyone is asked to get vaccinated.

I can't disagree with you there. There's so much money to be made from drugs, and more people getting vaccinated means more money for those who manufacture it. But that doesn't change the fact that vaccinations are necessary. It just so happens that some rich douchebags are making a killing off of it. That has nothing to do with the physicians who administer the vaccines in the best interest of the patients.

And yeah, the FDA lets a lot of things slip through.

My little sister passed away because of vaccinations, at one year and one week old.

I'm really sorry to hear that

Could you please elaborate exactly what happened?

 

[BORTZ]

In other news, Mountain Dew is found to have a poisonous chemical injected into it to keep the liquid from separating till consumption. Details at 11.

 

[Chary]

NO. NO. NO.

Back when I was in the 7th grade, Texas laws made it a requirement for everyone to have TDap,Dtap,Tb, polio, etc. My parents DID NOT want me getting those shots, but if I didn't, the school wouldn't let me in the front door. After nearly being evicted by my middle school, we relented. I got the shots. Now, I didn't go to any ordinary clinic, or a "govt" sponsored shot center. I live near the "Grand" Houston Medical Center, so I got the best of the best "vaccinations".

One week later, I began shivering violently, and had a fever of 105. We went to the doc, and tried to see why I was so sick. Took a blood test, and when it came back, they said that I had negatively reacted to the immunizations, and contracted Sepsis. I NEARLY DIED. All because of the immunizations. I missed 4 months of school, and I can't even begin to tell you how terrible the illness was. So yeah, I hate immunizations,

 

[retKHAAAN]

NO. NO. NO.

Back when I was in the 7th grade, Texas laws made it a requirement for everyone to have TDap,Dtap,Tb, polio, etc. My parents DID NOT want me getting those shots, but if I didn't, the school wouldn't let me in the front door. After nearly being evicted by my middle school, we relented. I got the shots. Now, I didn't go to any ordinary clinic, or a "govt" sponsored shot center. I live near the "Grand" Houston Medical Center, so I got the best of the best "vaccinations".

One week later, I began shivering violently, and had a fever of 105. We went to the doc, and tried to see why I was so sick. Took a blood test, and when it came back, they said that I had negatively reacted to the immunizations, and contracted Sepsis. I NEARLY DIED. All because of the immunizations. I missed 4 months of school, and I can't even begin to tell you how terrible the illness was. So yeah, I hate immunizations,

Thank you for posting this. I'm sure plenty of people will look at this and say "anecdotal evidence". Someone in the other thread posted something to the effect of "I've been vaccinated and I'm still alive" which just perpetuates the whole "It hasn't happened to me, I don't personally know anyone it's happened to, therefore, it doesn't happen" logic... Your story is in regard to a 12 year old going through that. My fear is that I have to put an infant with a heart condition and whose immune system has barely had a chance to develop through it. Yet somehow people see these fears as irrational and say it's better to take the chance than risk a possible illness... Either way, there's a gamble involved...

 

[Guild McCommunist]

I'm a bit tl;dr but please don't tell me this involves the whole "vaccinations give children autism" type thing.

 

[Wolvenreign]

It hadn't come to that yet, Guild, though the "Bullshit!" episode above addresses that. (More to come on the logic behind these replies.)

 

[chavosaur]

The one thing that kind of annoys me about this topic, is when parents or children will complain "I got sick when I got a vaccine!"
Well no shit.
I'm no medical expert, but going on what little I know, they're injecting a dead virus in you to make your body recognize it and develop immunities to it.
Which means there is a possibility that in order to immunize this sickness, you may get sick in the first place...
C'mon, your gonna tell me that because you experienced some side effects to something that will benefit you more in the end game is gonna turn you off completely too it, then I sincerely hope you're ready to face the risk of whatever viruses your not protecting yourself against to come to you.
Remember, everything here, is a choice. And you gotta live with those choices.
EDIT: Just to be clear, im not making any remarks about anyones posts in either thread, I just mean the main issue in general.

 

[BlueStar]

Refusing to protect your children from life-threatening illnesses because you've fallen for disproven quackery, internet woo, crazed hate campaigns, scaremongering anecdotes, lies about mercury and YouTube conspiracy theories is, I'm afraid, nothing short of child abuse. Parents are prosecuted and children removed to safety for other forms of neglect and I don't see why anti-vaxxers should be any different. And it's nothing to do with 'personal choice' or freedom, your own personal freedom ends at endangering yourself, not your child and the children of everyone else in society.

 

[Lanlan]

I'm really sorry to hear that

Could you please elaborate exactly what happened?

I don't know the details, I was about 12 at the time, and I don't like to ask or talk about it, I just know she was given vaccinations that somehow reacted wrong.

 

[BlueStar]

4 out of 9 currently manufactured flu vaccines contain mercury. Do you know which of the 9 you're getting? Are you cool with that?

Yep. I don't believe that people who go on about 'mercury' in shots even know the difference between types of mercury, or anything other than that it sounds like a dangerous, poisonous chemical. I get a flu shot every year as I'm offered it for free as an asthma sufferer.

http://www.parenting.com/article/10-vaccine-myths---busted?page=0,3

Until recently, many vaccine concerns centered on the safety of thimerosal, a compound that prevents the vaccine from being contaminated by bacteria and contains a form of mercury called ethylmercury. Mercury in large quantities is known to be harmful to a child's developing brain. Worries about thimerosal's effect on children prompted its removal from nearly all childhood vaccines in 1999. (Thimerosal is still present in some flu vaccine -- though you can ask your doctor for a thimerosal-free shot.)
Yet it's become clearer since then that ethylmercury does not pose the same health hazard as its cousin, methylmercury, a metal found in the environment that's known to accumulate in the body and cause harm to developing children. "The body is able to eliminate ethylmercury much more quickly than it can eliminate methylmercury," says Dr. Offit.
University of Rochester researchers confirmed that when they compared mercury concentrations in the urine, blood, and stools of children who got vaccines containing thimerosal with those of kids who received only thimerosal-free vaccines. All the children had mercury levels well below the EPA's most stringent public safety limits.
Even if your baby received a vaccine that contained thimerosal, the overwhelming majority of data support a lack of association between the substance and neurological problems, says Margaret Rennels, M.D., the chair of the committee on infectious diseases of the AAP, who points out that children are exposed to mercury from many environmental sources. "The reality that a lot of people seem to miss is that the largest source of organic mercury is the environment: the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the fish we eat. That's due to the burning of coal," she says. You can lessen your child's mercury exposure by limiting the amount of fish she eats. The Food and Drug Administration says that it's safe for young children to eat albacore tuna once a week and fish that are lower in mercury (such as "chunk light" tuna, pollack, salmon, and catfish) twice a week. (Shark, swordfish, king mackerel, and tilefish, which have high mercury levels, are off the menu.)

Are you willing to let your child be exposed to mercury by letting them eat fish?

 

[chavosaur]

Are you willing to let your child be exposed to mercury by letting them eat fish?

Careful, lets not turn this into a "ALL FISH MUST BE BANNED BECAUSE *insert farfetched medical trauma here*" Thread