When is pirating ok? (discussion)

[Rydian]

I don't really understand this whole DRM thing and how it can affect game quality. Could you explain it to me?

DRM refers to technologies used to restrict how software can be used unless certain conditions are met. The general idea is to only let paying customers use the software, but... DRM tends to break. A lot.

• In the case of Spore, one DRM aspect it has was that it would only allow five installs. Any more and it assumed you were pirating. People who had to reinstall Windows or who moved computers would run into that issue, after the fifth install the game would refuse to play. Spore's DRM has been lightened because of the terrible reputation it got (but the damage was already done).
  
  
• Another example is the DRM that Assassin's Creed III (PC version) originally came with. Originally it required an internet connection at all times in order to make sure you weren't pirating it, meaning if your internet was out (service outage, you were on a laptop on the plane, you just moved and the internet hadn't been installed, you lived in the mountains where normal 'net services didn't reach, etc.) you couldn't play the game. Also if your 'net dropped out during the game, it would stop (without saving your progress, from what I've read).
  
  
• And then there's the Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 or whatever game, which had DRM that actually broke and stopped people who bought it online from playing it... until somebody in the company's support site actually redistributed a crack they got off a piracy/torrent site so that customers could play.
  http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/
  (Source to make sure you believe me. XD)
  
  
• Then there was Bioshock's DRM that put an activation limit in... except even worse than Spore, as it needed to be activated per user account on each PC, meaning a single PC could use up all the activations for a single install.

In these example cases (and with pretty much every DRM scheme ever), only the people who bought the game had to deal with it, because the pirated versions had the DRM cracked/removed (often within days!)... which made piracy more attractive. It was actually EASIER to pirate then to buy the retail version (and some people had to download a pirated version just to play), which is ridiculous. In some cases, DRM actually contributes to more piracy than it stops, which goes to show how broken it is.

A lot of the DRM mentioned here has been removed, and some companies have sworn off of most typed of DRM because they realized it turns paying customers into pirates, instead of the other way around.

 

[Slave]

I think I'll just game on a console and not have to worry about it at all.

This is one of the thing to fight against Piracy, remember UBISOFT a while ago didnt want to make Games for PC anymore due to extreme piracy... there is much less piracy on console... ppl buy the games... (there are exceptions still) but on console there is much less piracy compared to PC. But still DRMs on consoles are not to the game makers to worry about, the console takes care of it. While on PC, if you make a game, its your business to try to make sure it wont be pirated... so it's less appealing.

On a brighter side, Ubisoft resumed making games for PC due to incredible demands from fans. The way they fight piracy is that they releases PC version later than console... that way those that Cant wait to play the game will buy it on consoles... making sales... those that really want it on PC will wait a few weeks... that way when the PC pirated copies comes out, it's less appealing since the game has been out already a few weeks on consoles. Usually pirated copies are appealing when the game is not out yet or barely out... that way it's "0day" and feel like an exclusivity.

 

[gamefan5]

DRM refers to technologies used to restrict how software can be used unless certain conditions are met. The general idea is to only let paying customers use the software, but... DRM tends to break. A lot.

• In the case of Spore, one DRM aspect it has was that it would only allow five installs. Any more and it assumed you were pirating. People who had to reinstall Windows or who moved computers would run into that issue, after the fifth install the game would refuse to play. Spore's DRM has been lightened because of the terrible reputation it got (but the damage was already done).
  
• Another example is the DRM that Assassin's Creed III (PC version) originally came with. Originally it required an internet connection at all times in order to make sure you weren't pirating it, meaning if your internet was out (service outage, you were on a laptop on the plane, you just moved and the internet hadn't been installed, you lived in the mountains where normal 'net services didn't reach, etc.) you couldn't play the game. Also if your 'net dropped out during the game, it would stop (without saving your progress, from what I've read).
  
• And then there's the Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 or whatever game, which had DRM that actually broke and stopped people who bought it online from playing it... until somebody in the company's support site actually redistributed a crack they got off a piracy/torrent site so that customers could play.
  http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/
  (Source to make sure you believe me. XD)
  
• Then there was Bioshock's DRM that put an activation limit in... except even worse than Spore, as it needed to be activated per user account on each PC, meaning a single PC could use up all the activations for a single install.

In these example cases (and with pretty much every DRM scheme ever), only the people who bought the game had to deal with it, because the pirated versions had the DRM cracked/removed (often within days!)... which made piracy more attractive. It was actually EASIER to pirate then to buy the retail version (and some people had to download a pirated version just to play), which is ridiculous. In some cases, DRM actually contributes to more piracy than it stops, which goes to show how broken it is.

A lot of the DRM mentioned here has been removed, and some companies have sworn off of most typed of DRM because they realized it turns paying customers into pirates, instead of the other way around.

Thank you. Now I understand completely. XD

 

[LockeCole_101629]

Pirating is never OK
and yes $60 is expensive
to whoever say it isn't, well be grateful you have a good life.
You won't believe how much people out there saving every single penny just to get cheaper stuff (specially parents and their daily expenses)

if you focus on games.
Well, sometimes I just consider it as a full version DEMO (with limitation on Online services)

but then again, I believe if it's good stuff people WILL buy it if they CAN afford it.
Literally no one willing to buy shit, even if it's free.

1st pirates? he makes copy of fish & bread.

 

[Sicklyboy]

Right... Because once you pay that $8 at the cinema you can go back and watch that movie as often as you want. Terrible analogy...

No, but say you wait for a movie to be released on disk/digital. Most movies these days, and I'm just going to go by DVD price for now since they tend to be a little more consistent than Bluray prices, anywhere from $16.99-$19.99 for the movie, save for some odd-one-out cases. So $20, for a movie with a multi million dollar budget, and you can watch and enjoy it as many times as you want until your DVD player takes a shit or your disk doesn't read anymore.

Now, wait two months or so after that movie comes out, and a lot of times, the prices drop drastically. Working electronics retail at a big box chain store, I see many of those $16-$20 movies drop to $8-$12 after being on the shelves for a month or two and selling pretty steadily.

So, ignoring the fact that games are (for some reason) priced ridiculously higher, why do some games NEVER drop in price? Take almost all of the sports games - Madden 13, NBA 2K13, NCAA 13, etc, those have been out for a WHILE and they're STILL $59.99. There's a lot of games that I see not go on a price drop, except for a sale here or there, until the next one in the series comes out. Madden 13 will stay $60 until Madden 14 comes out, just like Madden 12 did.

No, piracy isn't okay, really. I don't think anyone should benefit or get someone elses work for free without the creator's consent. However, on old consoles where games are no longer made (anything previous gen and back, for the most part), I can see piracy as pretty much acceptable. And for current gen stuff, it's gonna happen anyway. Except for computer games (Steam is so easy)(software, though...) and the 3DS (because there isn't an alternative yet), for which I am completely legit, I pirate to different degrees for every other console. And most older consoles, where games were only a few Mb or less, I have quite a few complete ROM libraries. I'm not gonna lie.

I support indie stuff whenever I can though. THOSE guys need the money if they're gonna keep doing what they're doing. That's where one potentially lost sale can actually hurt.

 

[jimskeet2002]

PIRATE ALL THE WAY!!!!!! Whoever wants to pay 50$ for a 3ds game feel free to do it... once 3ds is hacked, roms will be the only thing my 3ds will play... like my PC that plays almost only downloaded games Oh, and i am not even sorry Those companies wont build their billions with my money let them build them with yours

 

[Rydian]

PIRATE ALL THE WAY!!!!!! Whoever wants to pay 50$ for a 3ds game feel free to do it... once 3ds is hacked, roms will be the only thing my 3ds will play... like my PC that plays almost only downloaded games Oh, and i am not even sorry Those companies wont build their billions with my money let them build them with yours

Actually lots of game companies have gone out of business, or even declared bankruptcy.

 

[jimskeet2002]

I am 100% sure that the cause of it isn't piracy there is so much competition out there... If your games aren't good u are done... and honestly... small time developers don't stand much of a chance against EA or Ubi or Blizzard etc etc etc etc....

 

[McHaggis]

I love how gamers today are so self entitled that they think paying $60 for a game is "ridiculous". It's a hobby, grow up.

I think paying £55 for a game is ridiculous, but I don't necessarily always pirate them. Sometimes I, you know, wait for them to drop in price. I don't think I'm self entitled, I just have more patience and sense than other gamers not to throw my money away on buying a game that's going to be significantly cheaper in a few weeks.

 

[xist]

PIRATE ALL THE WAY!!!!!! Whoever wants to pay 50$ for a 3ds game feel free to do it... once 3ds is hacked, roms will be the only thing my 3ds will play... like my PC that plays almost only downloaded games Oh, and i am not even sorry Those companies wont build their billions with my money let them build them with yours

Clover Studios - made superb games (or at the very least good) and still went tits up. Don't want just casual games to be dominating? You need to put some money into the things you do want or the future will end up homogeneous and casual.

 

[PolloDiablo]

a DS game (Pkmn Black 2) costs around U$S85 here
WiiSports costs U$S90
and some games are impossible to find (Xenoblade, Last Story, etc)

So I say... if you had the bad luck of being born in south america. Live like a fucking pirate!!!

 

[jimskeet2002]

so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???

 

[Rydian]

so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???

You could always not play them. Lots of people have never played a videogame in their life and are just fine.

 

[McHaggis]

So, ignoring the fact that games are (for some reason) priced ridiculously higher, why do some games NEVER drop in price? Take almost all of the sports games - Madden 13, NBA 2K13, NCAA 13, etc, those have been out for a WHILE and they're STILL $59.99. There's a lot of games that I see not go on a price drop, except for a sale here or there, until the next one in the series comes out. Madden 13 will stay $60 until Madden 14 comes out, just like Madden 12 did.

You see this happen all the time with Nintendo 1st party releases. Take Super Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 7, both available for over a year and both still priced at full MSRP in most high street shops. Granted, you can get a cheaper price if you shop around, but they don't see the same price cuts as games from 3rd party developers. Hell, New Super Mario Bros for the DS is still £29.99 in some high street shops (like HMV), and that's a previous gen console.

 

[xist]

so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???

You said PIRATE ALL THE WAY. That implies you would never support the games industry beyond an initial hardware purchase (which doesn't support the developers of the games you want).

You're immensely shortsighted (or just like all the games popular to the masses) if you think that having no input in the games industry is going to help get the games you like made. Think of it as a vote.....would you abstain from having your say?

 

[ShadowSoldier]

so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???

Yes. The way I see it, if you're not willing to pay, then you aren't willing to play. While most pirates on this site would pay, but seeing as how you aren't, then you don't need to be playing them.

 

[the_randomizer]

DRM refers to technologies used to restrict how software can be used unless certain conditions are met. The general idea is to only let paying customers use the software, but... DRM tends to break. A lot.

• In the case of Spore, one DRM aspect it has was that it would only allow five installs. Any more and it assumed you were pirating. People who had to reinstall Windows or who moved computers would run into that issue, after the fifth install the game would refuse to play. Spore's DRM has been lightened because of the terrible reputation it got (but the damage was already done).
• Another example is the DRM that Assassin's Creed III (PC version) originally came with. Originally it required an internet connection at all times in order to make sure you weren't pirating it, meaning if your internet was out (service outage, you were on a laptop on the plane, you just moved and the internet hadn't been installed, you lived in the mountains where normal 'net services didn't reach, etc.) you couldn't play the game. Also if your 'net dropped out during the game, it would stop (without saving your progress, from what I've read).
• And then there's the Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 or whatever game, which had DRM that actually broke and stopped people who bought it online from playing it... until somebody in the company's support site actually redistributed a crack they got off a piracy/torrent site so that customers could play.
  http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/
  (Source to make sure you believe me. XD)
• Then there was Bioshock's DRM that put an activation limit in... except even worse than Spore, as it needed to be activated per user account on each PC, meaning a single PC could use up all the activations for a single install.

In these example cases (and with pretty much every DRM scheme ever), only the people who bought the game had to deal with it, because the pirated versions had the DRM cracked/removed (often within days!)... which made piracy more attractive. It was actually EASIER to pirate then to buy the retail version (and some people had to download a pirated version just to play), which is ridiculous. In some cases, DRM actually contributes to more piracy than it stops, which goes to show how broken it is.

A lot of the DRM mentioned here has been removed, and some companies have sworn off of most typed of DRM because they realized it turns paying customers into pirates, instead of the other way around.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory was another infamous example of bad DRM. Back in the day, Ubisoft wanted to use something called Starforce, which was a disc verification process to make sure your copy was legit. The problem? It only worked on Windows XP, but not Vista, 7, etc, and it installed rootkits on your system. Not only that, but you couldn't remove it unless you hacked the registry, plus their Starforce update pack was a joke, it was supposed to remove it, but never did. So you know what I did? I installed the no-DVD patch that removed the disc protection, the very thing Ubisoft wanted to prevent people from doing. I, a legitimate customer, had to resort to something illegal to play a legally purchased game. Ironic? Yes, but quite amusing too. DRM hurts pirates to an extent, but hurts legit consumers as well, which often cause them to resort to illicit activity to use legally purchased goods. Gotta love the paradoxical piracy issues.

Frankly, I don't give a f**k about DRM and will do everything I can to remove said Digital Restriction Management from my legitimately obtained goods. I don't care what the DMCA states about circumventing protection measures, I don't care what they say about making personal backups for myself, and I don't care what they say about only having the license to play the game or console as opposed to actually "owning". What I do with my goods is my business. It's legal to jailbreak iPhones, but not consoles? Talk about being hypocritical. Bloody sods.

If they don't like it, that's just to f***ing bad.

 

[SuzieJoeBob]

Yup, you're right. About that first statement, that is.

If you feel that the company doesn't deserve your money for their game due to it being the same game over and over again, then why, tell me, why do you feel the game is worth pirating then?

You have a valid point, and you did poke a hole in my train of thought, but it is to be fair and make a judgement based on my actual play experience. I not just what I saw in videos of it. If I were to play the original Mario Bros (NES) and say it is exactly the same as the one for the Wii U, then I would only be half correct; both games utilize the same characters and general gaming layout, but a lot has been added/incorporated since. For the NDS version, the second screen made the experience differ from the other console's version, just as the Wii's multiplayer and NDS's multiplayer had a similar structure, yet different environment. I found the Wii U's version enjoyable and challenging, yet found the NDS's version rather easy and boring.

When it comes down to being "worth pirating", you have to consider that pirating is "free" when only considering the price you pay for the game, not including the electric consumed. Also, just because the company doesn't deserve my money doesn't necessarily mean their games on a whole suck. Every company doesn't usually stick with one franchise; Nintendo also has Legend of Zelda, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Donkey Kong, Smash Bros, Pikmin, and others. I know people who feel Sony doesn't deserve money for the Uncharted series, yet is willing to fork it over for anything related to Crash Bandicoot or Spyro (non-Skylanders).

 

[jimskeet2002]

Yes. The way I see it, if you're not willing to pay, then you aren't willing to play. While most pirates on this site would pay, but seeing as how you aren't, then you don't need to be playing them.

You see there is a problem here... The problem is that I CAN play them... So I will... and companies can still sell their games for 50$ and I still won't buy them and i still will play them. You see in 10 years i would have saved of like 15-20k... With these money I can buy a car you know. So I will. Oh and I will still have played the games Oh and companies can't do something about it. Do u know why? Cause piracy is a fact... like the fact that companies rip off the customers

 

[retKHAAAN]

No, but say you wait for a movie to be released on disk/digital. Most movies these days, and I'm just going to go by DVD price for now since they tend to be a little more consistent than Bluray prices, anywhere from $16.99-$19.99 for the movie, save for some odd-one-out cases. So $20, for a movie with a multi million dollar budget, and you can watch and enjoy it as many times as you want until your DVD player takes a shit or your disk doesn't read anymore.

Now, wait two months or so after that movie comes out, and a lot of times, the prices drop drastically. Working electronics retail at a big box chain store, I see many of those $16-$20 movies drop to $8-$12 after being on the shelves for a month or two and selling pretty steadily.

So, ignoring the fact that games are (for some reason) priced ridiculously higher, why do some games NEVER drop in price? Take almost all of the sports games - Madden 13, NBA 2K13, NCAA 13, etc, those have been out for a WHILE and they're STILL $59.99. There's a lot of games that I see not go on a price drop, except for a sale here or there, until the next one in the series comes out. Madden 13 will stay $60 until Madden 14 comes out, just like Madden 12 did.

There is little correlation between budget and amount of content, especially when comparing movies and video games.

For example:
Bioshock - budget $15mil - Development 3 years - Sales 4 mil units over all platforms - Avg. Playtime 20-25 hours

Transformers 3 - budget $270mil - Development 20 months (includes pre-production) - Total Box Office $1,123,746,996 - DVD sales $44,783,000 (figures for Oct/Nov/Dec 2011 only and no bluray figures available) - Runtime 154 minutes

Movies have two main sources of income; ticket sales and dvd sales. Games have one source of income, take longer to produce (unless we're talking about CoD or Sports games), are produced in far fewer numbers, bring in waayyyyyyy less profit (unless we're talking about CoD) and give the buyer far more content with their purchase. 3 playthroughs of Bioshock = 26 viewings of Transformers 3. Production costs tied to dvd/bluray come from printing/packaging. Blockbusters have already made their millions (and sometimes billions) long before a dvd release. Low budget films have lower expectations.