Trans Girl Suspended From High School for Using Bathroom

[Panzer Tacticer]

Here's another thought. I have been a janitor, it involved me walking in and out of both genders washrooms. I know precisely what the inside of a female restroom looks like.

They don't have urinals, girls pee sitting down (even though it is known with some skill a girl COULD stand in front of a urinal and pee into it, they are just not really trained to do so from youth).

So would it not be just an easier process, to make ALL restrooms places with ONLY booths where only ONE person was going to be in it removing bodily wastes and temporarily partially undressed on the process. It's not like a male couldn't just pee like they do at home eh. I don't have a urinal in my home eh. We could just make it plain, PUT YOUR DAMNED CLOTHES ON BEFORE EXITING THE STALL!!. No doing anything that permits partial nudity whatsoever outside of the stall. No fixing you clothing, no changing into some other outfit nothing in the way of cleaning that involves partial clothing removal at all outside of the stall.

I wouldn't have a problem taking a piss in a stall by myself, knowing there was a female sitting taking a piss right beside me . They could easily make the stalls such that there is no way to look over the sides. Just make the sides floor to ceiling. Not rocket science eh. I would not have any issues washing my hands next to a woman washing her hands. And that is all a restroom should be, people coming in taking a piss and then washing their hands and leaving.

It really sickens me knowing that soooo many of the problems society makes such a fucking big case over, have such easy solutiuons, but ooooooh no, it's asking too much for anyone in society to use their fucking head.

 

[Foxi4]

(...most of this particular post are "words words words", nothing really new or what I haven't commented on already. If you disagree with what the majority treats as the standard then it's your problem... I'm sorry, I really like discussing interesting political matters with you on various occasions, but whenever you start throwing "religion" or "the burguoise" into the equation, I already know that we're no longer chatting on the "serious" front. These have nothing to do whatsoever with the matter at hand. Moreover, why would I even want to discuss the issue universally when I was given the context? It's a school based in the U.S and their students need to conform to social "rules" that are commonly accepted there. I'm not interested in what is conscidered shameful on Mars, I'm thinking "a school in the U.S". I'm getting the feeling that you purposely misinterpret what I'm saying in an attempt to make me look like a redneck, and I must say I do not appreciate that. For example that part about race, where you emphasized that my phrasing is "a bit of a weird way to say it", as if you tried to point and say "he may be racist". I'm not. There is nothing to be ashamed of in either race, we are all equal and there's nothing weird in the sentence whatsoever unless you WANT to read it in a weird fashion. Forgive me if that was not your intention, that's just how I feel after being forced to explain every little tidbit. In the end, there was just this one sentence I felt like it's worth to comment on


Lastly, transgenderism cannot be dismissed as a "whim".

When in my entire argument have I said it is a whim? You're twisting my words, that's not nice. What I said was that demanding to use a specific bathroom that was *not made for you* and its explicitly stated by the administration body BEFORE you were suspended is. It would not be any more difficult to use the one that was prepared for your sex, nor would it be physically painful or otherwise degrading. In school, there are students and there's the administration - the administration supervises over the students and the students conform. If they believe there needs to be change, there are different ways to do so other than blatantly breaking the rules. You can't pick and choose rules you like, you can't ignore clear instructions from your supervisors.

This teaches these young people that if they do not conform at work and ignore what their bosses tell them - they loose. Plain and simple.

People's needs have evolved, and are evolving, and they are beginning to find real expression in the civil sphere, both socially and politically. It is my opinion that if you continue to tow the line with such reductive and bigoted views, you will end up being left behind.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is the only thing taken into conscideration when building a rules board. As long as all the lower needs are satisfied AND the school satisfies the higher need of learning and education, everything's in the clear.

The only "special needs" a school has to satisfy are needs directly related to education. A student on a wheelchair? Gotta satisfy his needs - he has the right to move around the school and study. A blind student? Gotta find him books written in braile or find a school that will specifically satisfy his needs and prepare a transfer. Transgender student...? Uhm... They can access necessary facilities and study just fine... right?

I now publicly identify myself as a female, so I should be obliged to use the female public restroom without any consequences. I'm going to go into the female restroom, whip out my junk, and start peeing along the girls in the female restroom. They are totally comforted about my existence in the female restroom and are going to tell their parents about me. Their parents are assured that the female public restroom is a secure place for their beautiful daughters to be using. You see how fucked up your argument is?

Thank you, this explains pretty much everything I was trying to convey. I was trying to avoid ridiculing the other side of it though.

make ALL restrooms places with ONLY booths where only ONE person was going to be in it removing bodily wastes and temporarily partially undressed on the process. It's not like a male couldn't just pee like they do at home eh. I don't have a urinal in my home eh. We could just make it plain, PUT YOUR DAMNED CLOTHES ON BEFORE EXITING THE STALL!!. No doing anything that permits partial nudity whatsoever outside of the stall. No fixing you clothing, no changing into some other outfit nothing in the way of cleaning that involves partial clothing removal at all outside of the stall.

That is not the point - nobody's standing right under your balls at the urinals either. Nobody stares at you - that would be creepy. The point is that the concept of sharing a private space like this and performing bodily functions of that kind while infront of the opposite sex will be uncomfortable regardless whether or not they see you.

There's one critical point that the article failed to address:

Did the trans students have their reproductive organs changed?

I can see why school officials would be concerned if genital type A's went into a Type B restroom, but that still is not grounds for a warning, let alone suspension.

Nobody would ever have any problems if that were the case. In fact, nobody would probably notice the difference, which is the basis of this entire "argument", AKA, "is your sex in your pants or in your head".


I'm really tired with explaining every little bit of my argument and getting caught by my tongue - I'm sorry, but as long as you pee with what you have in your pants, not what you have in your head, it's very much in your pants.

Peeing is a bodily function, and as such should be classified with bodily terminology and reffer to it. Her gender might be male, his gender might be female, but at the end of the day they cannot yet "decieve" others sucessfuly enough not to cause a "stir" in the student body. My one and only argument was that bathrooms, restrooms and changing rooms are divided into ones dedicated to males and females in regard of sex, not anyone's personally identified gender. Attempting to "make of it more than it really is" is sort of pointless - that's simply my point of view with which anyone can agree or disagree, but at the end of the day it will be the "majority" of a given society that will set that standard, and if it so happens that they will at some point reffer to gender, then I will gladly conform but that is not the state of matters as of now.

 

[leic7]

The thought of "conforming" to rules without questioning horrifies me. Whatever educational system that instills this kind of mentality in its pupils needs a serious reevaluation of its practices. Perhaps I did come from a privileged education system where critical thinking is valued, as one of the main things I'll always remember from schools is this phrase, "Question everything." If a student feels that a certain rule imposed by the school is unjust? By all means, challenge it. Doing what you're told without questioning is not something a school of all places should encourage.

Constitutional rights are honoured in schools too, I would hope. And it's not just the ones directly related to education, but other constitutional rights should apply as well.

Majority rule is not the be-all and end-all in western democracies, it's often not adequate, especially when it comes to minority rights. That's why our societies have attempted to have other measures in place, such as the judicial system, that's supposed to be independent of popular opinions. But anyway, in our society, it's rarely the majority who sets the standards...

YES, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! I now publicly identify myself as a female, so I should be obliged to use the female public restroom without any consequences. I'm going to go into the female restroom, whip out my junk, and start peeing along the girls in the female restroom. They are totally comforted about my existence in the female restroom and are going to tell their parents about me. Their parents are assured that the female public restroom is a secure place for their beautiful daughters to be using. You see how fucked up your argument is?

I don't see the problem with you peeing with the other girls in the women's room if you identify as a girl yourself. What's the problem? How exactly would your presence in there make it a less secure place? And what in the world do you mean "it's America"? America has a single opinion on this issue? America can never change?

A transgender male or female may access their respective bathrooms without any problems whatsoever, a handicapped person may not due to physical inability. Hyyyuge difference between "Can't" and "Won't, because I feel like it". In the case of a handicapped person, you are accomodating his/her basic need - he or she needs means of transportation to use the constitutional right to study, and while at it, satisfy basic phisiological needs. In the case of a transgender person, you are satisfying a whim. A change is simply not necessary.

I'm confused. Is this a sex issue or a gender issue? If we were to reduced this to biology alone, then having only "female" or "male" washrooms would effectively leave those who are neither biologically without any place to go. This is the same situation as the person with a wheelchair - I'm of the opinion that as long as there's one person affected by this, changes are necessary.

But I of course don't think the washroom issue is only a biological sex issue. Gender plays a huge role in it, otherwise all these stories wouldn't have happened. The people who enter a different sex washroom obviously didn't get the memo about "washrooms being strictly about sex, and nothing about gender"; neither did I. I suspect a lot of those who harass androgynous looking folks in washrooms also didn't review it. What I believe to be the main issue is some people just can't deal with the fact that not everyone conforms to the gender binary, the washroom incident is just a pretext for them to freak out over it. As long as these people still exist within the school, going to the washroom can be a stressful experience for anyone who doesn't look like a stereotypical boy/girl, no matter if they possess the anatomically correct apparatus. Hence, this has become an accessibility issue. The school needs to better educate its student body; it may offer the staff washrooms for the time being, but *limiting* a student's access to only the staff washrooms is definitely not the way to go.

The point is that the concept of sharing a private space like this and performing bodily functions of that kind while infront of the opposite sex will be uncomfortable regardless whether or not they see you.

What? How far does this private space extend, exactly? The stalls in washrooms have doors, you know? Or should the entire floor be evacuated when someone performs their bodily functions of that kind so as not to make them feel uncomfortable?

 

[VashTS]

why are they upset about this? they chose this life style, you gotta expect the consequences.

the world is NOT going to bend to you, and if you expect that...fuck you then. deal with it or GTFO. seriously im in rage mode right now, that shit angers me and i deal with it on a daily basis.

wah wah wah i can't use the men's bathroom (yet im really a woman) boo hoo my life is over. wait until you get into the real world and see what happens, losers. grow up. if i get a tattoo and people judge me then i accept it.

pls do NOT flame this with ITS NOTS A CHOICE VASH, yuuu rrr a bigot! bull shit its a fucking choice, you choose to dress/act like the opposite sex. get naked and they tell me they are not choosing to have a penis/vagina.

Fine Vash you're a douchebag bigot, science disagrees with you as transgender brains are similar to the opposite sex. Don't troll my thread, trying to start a flame war. Go and troll some other threads.

not meaning to troll your thread dude. just stating the truth. yes "transgender" is like a tattoo (until surgery anyway) its cosmetic and while you can wish all you want the answer in reality is still the same. really even post op t******** should still have to use the proper restroom.

i believe im a cat on the outside. so when a vet refuses to see me i get really upset. i also believe im a fish so i get angry when physics and biology won't let me live in the water that sounds silly, but this is what this articles sounds like. its garbage.

 

[leic7]

Well, belief is a powerful thing, I wouldn't underestimate it. Some people's illness could even be cured when the patients believed they'd taken the drugs...

 

[Foxi4]

The thought of "conforming" to rules without questioning horrifies me. Whatever educational system that instills this kind of mentality in its pupils needs a serious reevaluation of its practices. Perhaps I did come from a privileged education system where critical thinking is valued, as one of the main things I'll always remember from schools is this phrase, "Question everything." If a student feels that a certain rule imposed by the school is unjust? By all means, challenge it. Doing what you're told without questioning is not something a school of all places should encourage.

Then your priviledged educational system probably taught you that rules are to be obeyed. You can question them, you can work towards changing them, but while said rules are in power, you're supposed to obey them, not break them in spite of better judgement. There were numerous ways of solving this situation and the girl in question solved it the worst way possible - via not-give-a-sh*t-ism, and she got "rewarded" for it approprietly. Creative Thinking and Stupid Conduct are two vastly different ideas.

People of "neither" sex, as discussed earlier, develop a deeper connection to one of the sexes and undergo appropriet surgery for their own good and quite early on, to prevent hormonal imbalance and improper growth. Those who don't end up in medical textbooks and frankly, toilets are their least concern. You would know that if you read my previous posts, which you have not. You will also find answers to many questions you posed in your post.

I'm officially jetissoning myself out of this discussion - I've written my opinion, there is not much more to be said. Everybody has their own opinion on the matter anyways, I see no further reason to justify mine.

 

[leic7]

If I remember correctly, civil disobedience was not something to be frown upon. However, punishing someone unjustly was. In my opinion, some rules are just asking to get challenged and broken. e.g. no students are allowed to bring their same sex partners to prom, but opposite sex partners are okay... etc. etc. I don't know what kind of social climate they have where this incident took place, but if something similar was to happen around my part of the world, the school would be in trouble, as the student had done nothing wrong.

And you're the one who wanted to reduce this entire thing to biology, but since a binary system clearly isn't adequate for biology, now you're trying to redefine biology in order to fit that narrow system? Or are you trying to imply those who don't fit in the binary system don't count? I know someone who's intersex, who also happens to look quite androgynous; frankly, going to public washrooms is far from a pleasant experience for them.

lol I kept asking for confirmations about what's been said because your statements seem so irrational that I found it difficult to believe anyone actually said them.

 

[BlueStar]

Then your priviledged educational system probably taught you that rules are to be obeyed. You can question them, you can work towards changing them, but while said rules are in power, you're supposed to obey them, not break them in spite of better judgement.

Yeah, Rosa Parks, what a dick.

 

[ShinyJellicent12]

WTH who does that? Transgender people are people too! Especially students! WTH

 

[Panzer Tacticer]

"That is not the point - nobody's standing right under your balls at the urinals either. Nobody stares at you - that would be creepy. The point is that the concept of sharing a private space like this and performing bodily functions of that kind while infront of the opposite sex will be uncomfortable regardless whether or not they see you."

The point is, there is a limit to privacy. Most guys know of the rules of urinal, that in a room with 3 urinals, and 2 men needing to piss, you always use the one further from the other one. Thus a guy using a middle urinal is being a jerk according to the rules That and the fact is, two guys would simply know, you don't look at the other guys junk. Then again, I'm ex military. Anyone with a military background knows during a piss break outdoors, you whip it out and water the grass, any grass will do, and no one gives a shit who's looking. In the military the showers are not isolated booths, and that means no privacy at all. I'm quite comfortable walking around naked in front of my gender.

Civilians are a weird species though.

There is no difference between a woman cutting loose a loud one in the toilet and a man. Taking a piss sounds the same while sitting, and I happen to know my wife sounds the same with a full bladder as a man standing does.

So in the end, this is really just what it is, petty crap surrounded by dogma, often rooted in religion and culture, that honestly thinks if a girl is in a restroom with 1 or more guys, rampant out of control fucking is inevitable. Well considering what I know of teens, I suppose that isn't totally impossible. But considering how little incentive there is to honour a door with the opposing gender symbol on it as being impenetrable. There's nothing to stop a male or a female from entering an opposing genders rest room specifically to fuck like bunnies is there.

Men's rooms differ from Ladie's rooms in only one fashion worth mention. Ladies rooms don't feature urinals and thus the reclaimed floor space means they will have more actual toilets. But men being able to whip it out faster on average, and able to use a urinal with less effort, is why after a movie, on average, you can ditch your used pop faster than your girlfriend wife did and be waiting outside for her rather than the other way around.

 

[VashTS]

i vote for bathroom police

except i got a shy bladder so i guess i would no longer be able to use public restrooms lol

 

[MFDC12]

Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is a set of fake breasts and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.

hysterectomy, oophorectomy, Mammary Duct Excision‎. born females who get these procedures for medical reasons aren't really females anymore are they? :rollseyes:

many MTF transgenders I know don't have fake breasts. hormones treatments can enlarge breast sizes. and men biologically have breasts. you know that males can get breast cancer, right?

so much of this thread implies the binary gender system exists, and it is quite irritating.

 

[Foxi4]

Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is a set of fake breasts and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.

hysterectomy, oophorectomy, Mammary Duct Excision‎. born females who get these procedures for medical reasons aren't really females anymore are they? :rollseyes:

many MTF transgenders I know don't have fake breasts. hormones treatments can enlarge breast sizes. and men biologically have breasts. you know that males can get breast cancer, right?

so much of this thread implies the binary gender system exists, and it is quite irritating.

Their biological makeup is entirely feminene even without breasts - we're not discussing people that have been wounded in accidents or had medical procedures that required removing some organ for their sake, we're discussing standard, everyday males and females and how to distinguish sex and gender, moreover, in a very general manner. I'd also like to underline that the internal built of a "male breast" is different than that of the female's, you're grabbing straws with the cancer. You Mad?

 

[Thomas83Lin]

they have been told to use the staff bathrooms at Fort Collins High School. But, Malikowski told reporters, “There’s not staff bathrooms all over the school, so when you really got to pee, you got to pee.”

The school was generous in letting them use the Staff restroom. I'm with the school on this one.

 

[MFDC12]

Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is a set of fake breasts and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.

hysterectomy, oophorectomy, Mammary Duct Excision‎. born females who get these procedures for medical reasons aren't really females anymore are they? :rollseyes:

many MTF transgenders I know don't have fake breasts. hormones treatments can enlarge breast sizes. and men biologically have breasts. you know that males can get breast cancer, right?

so much of this thread implies the binary gender system exists, and it is quite irritating.

Their biological makeup is entirely feminene even without breasts - we're not discussing people that have been wounded in accidents or had medical procedures that required removing some organ for their sake, we're discussing standard, everyday males and females and how to distinguish sex and gender, moreover, in a very general manner. I'd also like to underline that the internal built of a "male breast" is different than that of the female's, you're grabbing straws with the cancer. You Mad?

What one can assume from what you wrote was that a biological female is only a biological female if they have a uterus, ovaries, milk glands, or a "naturally formed" vagina, and the only thing that makes a transgender person is fake breasts and reconstructed genitals.

I debated against 4 of those 6 arguments, saying that just because one does not have those parts does not make them female, nor do all MTF get plastic surgery, and maybe I did jump to conclusions that breast statement, but that does not make my argument any less true. Of course they are different structured, and to be quite honest, most men don't think they have breasts and assume breast cancer is just for females.

Your whole argument assumes the binary gender is the only thing that exists, and things are not that black and white, and can go beyond transvestism/transgender. There is intersex, third gender, pangender, whatever other genderqueer identity someone has. As stated by other people in this thread, a unisex/gender neutral bathroom would be preferable in any case.

 

[Thomas83Lin]

a unisex/gender neutral bathroom would be preferable in any case.

Staff Restroom = Unisex restroom. just saying. The school in my opinion did they right thing here, considering this is a high school

edit: Though maybe schools were this is common, should consider a unisex restroom.

 

[KingVamp]

Staff restroom = small in number.

Next thing we hear is a transsexual girl pee herself and the floor because she couldn't make it to the staff bathroom.

:/

 

[Foxi4]

Your whole argument assumes the binary gender is the only thing that exists, and things are not that black and white, and can go beyond transvestism/transgender. There is intersex, third gender, pangender, whatever other genderqueer identity someone has. As stated by other people in this thread, a unisex/gender neutral bathroom would be preferable in any case.

No, my whole argument is based on the binary sex, because humans as a species only has those two. Even if you count hermaphrodites, supermen or superwomen, all those cases ALWAYS lean towards one of the two. Gender, a psychological and social construct used to identify oneself, has nothing to do with biological (other than the fact that some use biological sex to discover their gender via routes of deduction "I have a penis, thus I look like a male - I must be male" but it's more complex then that and obviously not a cemented rule - some people just don't see it that way.) sex mate, it'd really help if you read what I actually wrote throughout these few pages rather then going all TL;DR, because it makes you look ignorant.

Regardless of whether you were born male or female (sex), whether you percieve yourself as male or female or an elephant god (gender), whether you were born neither but percieve yourself as one of those (again, gender, but those people correct their bodies early on to prevent disfigurement and hormonal issues), the bathrooms are to be used by corresponding SEXES, not genders.

I can have a change of heart and feel female all of a sudden, find out my true nature. That doesn't mean that I should start going to the ladies bathroom - I would, to say it lightly, disturb the females there. Out of common decency, I'd still use "the gents" until I change my sex to prevent discomfort for other users of said bathroom.

 

[Hells Malice]

Staff restroom = small in number.

Next thing we hear is a transsexual girl pee herself and the floor because she couldn't make it to the staff bathroom.

:/

I don't know how gargantuan US highschools are, but here in Canada if you ask to go to the bathroom and can't make it to the staff bathroom, you waited entirely too long to go.

 

[Foxi4]

Staff restroom = small in number.

Next thing we hear is a transsexual girl pee herself and the floor because she couldn't make it to the staff bathroom.

:/

I don't know how gargantuan US highschools are, but here in Canada if you ask to go to the bathroom and can't make it to the staff bathroom, you waited entirely too long to go.

+1, it's not Hogwarts - you don't have moving staircases, bathroom passwords, poltergeists and other cretures preventing you from peeing, do you?