Trans Girl Suspended From High School for Using Bathroom

[KingVamp]

I don't know how gargantuan US highschools are, but here in Canada if you ask to go to the bathroom and can't make it to the staff bathroom, you waited entirely too long to go.

+1, it's not Hogwarts - you don't have moving staircases, bathroom passwords, poltergeists and other cretures preventing you from peeing, do you?

Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
get wrote up for it.

I wonder if Hogwarts got unisex bathrooms?
Funny thing is, I was just watching the 8 movie of Harry Potter.

 

[Foxi4]

Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
get wrote up for it.

A) A pupil/student is supposed to do his buisness BEFORE the lesson starts - there are breaks between courses/lessons/lectures there for a reason, y'know.
B) Don't you think that if the staff has no problems utilizing staff bathrooms, they're "close enough" for pupils aswell? Or do we undergo a certain mutation of the bladder at the age of 25-30 that I am unaware of that allows "Adults" to hold it in for longer?

 

[azure0wind]

i can't believe this, seriously. suspending from bathroom?

 

[leic7]

No, my whole argument is based on the binary sex, because humans as a species only has those two. Even if you count hermaphrodites, supermen or superwomen, all those cases ALWAYS lean towards one of the two.

You are wrong. Whichever biology teacher that taught you that needs to be kicked. Not everyone conforms to the sexual dimorphism in biology, which can be traced back to the genetics level at the "X"/"Y"-chromosomes. You don't sound like you have a background in this field, yet you talk big. But if you'd at least taken a bio course at the high school level you should know that your last statement is false. Unless you're implying those who don't fit nicely in the binary sex system can be arbitrarily forced into either camp, in which case, I haven't heard anyone try doing that in the scientific community (yet).

 

[Foxi4]

No, my whole argument is based on the binary sex, because humans as a species only has those two. Even if you count hermaphrodites, supermen or superwomen, all those cases ALWAYS lean towards one of the two.

You are wrong. Whichever biology teacher that taught you that needs to be kicked. Not everyone conforms to the sexual dimorphism in biology, which can be traced back to the genetics level at the "X"/"Y"-chromosomes. You don't sound like you have a background in this field, yet you talk big. But if you'd at least taken a bio course at the high school level you should know that your last statement is false. Unless you're implying those who don't fit nicely in the binary sex system can be arbitrarily forced into either camp, in which case, I haven't heard anyone try doing that in the scientific community (yet).

Another canditate for the "I haven't read the entire thread, but I must scream" award this year.

Please read up on the source material from page 10 or 11 posted here and accept the fact that 1 sex will be dominating in the hermaphrodite even if neither is fully developed, and that sex is usually chosen by doctors and recommended before sex change operations.

The human species has only two possible sexes due to a rather simple rule - chromosomes go in pairs. Since you have two chromosomes determining sex, that would be Y and X, you only have combinations XX and XY - YY has been proven an impossible combination. Other combinations are abnormalities, in which cases the percentage of development and dominant hormones are measured and the abnormality is surgically corrected, as mentioned before, to prevent disfigurement.

 

[Hyro-Sama]

This thread hasn't died yet?

 

[Foxi4]

This thread hasn't died yet?

I'm amused myself. I jettisoned from it recently but have to come back time and time again because people "don't feel like reading" and prefer slander instead.

I do believe it's a lost battle though, so I may as well start ignoring that.

 

[BlueStar]

Just remembered this story from a few years back
Thai school offers transsexual toilet

http://news.bbc.co.u...fic/7529227.stm

 

[leic7]

Another canditate for the "I haven't read the entire thread, but I must scream" award this year.

Please read up on the source material from page 10 or 11 posted here and accept the fact that 1 sex will be dominating in the hermaphrodite even if neither is fully developed, and that sex is usually chosen by doctors and recommended before sex change operations.

The human species has only two possible sexes due to a rather simple rule - chromosomes go in pairs. Since you have two chromosomes determining sex, that would be Y and X, you only have combinations XX and XY - YY has been proven an impossible combination. Other combinations are abnormalities, in which cases the percentage of development and dominant hormones are measured and the abnormality is surgically corrected, as mentioned before, to prevent disfigurement.

I have read the thread, actually. I began to chime in when I saw the blatantly wrong information about biological sex you gave. Your so-called source material on intersexuality was a Google Translated page from a different language. Is that where you got the idea every single one could be classified as either/or? Making absolute statements about everyone's situation means a single exception would render your entire argument invalid. And there are people who've never undergone surgery to prevent "disfigurement" as you put it.

I'm not sure if you even realize this, but your definition of "sex" seems to have swayed between a purely biological POV (a strictly phenotypic one at first?) and a social POV (one that can be arbitrarily chosen by doctors). From a biological POV, a strictly binary code on human sexuality is both phenotypically and genotypically inadequate. No biology teacher properly trained would enforce such a system to the exclusion of other possibilities; there's no empirical evidence to support such claims. Forcing intersexuals to be identified as either "female" or "male" is not science. I apologize if this is a rather obvious point to anyone else... just a little peeved by the (mis)use of science to justify someone's personal beliefs.

If you're going to google this info, I suggest trying the keyword "intersex", as it's the more commonly used term nowadays. FYI, "hermaphrodite" is almost never used on people in scientific journals. If you wish to read up on the phenotypic (and some chromosomal) variations in humans, the wikipedia page can actually be a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

 

[Foxi4]

The page I linked you to was originally in my native language, polish, hence the use of Google Translate. I use the term "disfigurement" for the effects of prolonged hermaphrodism that are caused by hormonal imbalance, not hermaphrodism itself. Intersex is never used in my native language as a scientific term, hence I do not use it in english either. I'd also like to underline that you're only expressing your personal view on the matter. You say that there is no empirical evidence that supports the theory of sex dualism, I say there is no evidence that disproves it, furthermore, I say that it is a general rule that chromosomes always walk in pairs, thus the only logical combinations are XX and XY, since two Y chromosomes are not able to connect, thus rendering all other connections as invalid and by proxy abnormal.

You treat hermaphrodism, or as you call it, "Intersex" as a natural occourence, I treat it as a form of birth defect. We simply have a different approach and it would be best if we agree to disagree, since this is one of those disputes where both sides have equal ammounts of for and againts arguments, which funnily enough features some that are used interchangably by both sides.

It would also be about time to let this thread die, I honestly believe that the subject matter has been exhausted.

 

[leic7]

True, I don't tend to use words such as "abnormal", "defect", etc. as easily. And I do apologize for my insensitivity with regard to the language differences.
My previous wheelchair analogy still applies, though. Regardless if you consider it a "defect", the point is they're people who exist. As long as there's one person affected by it, defect or not, their rights should not be ignored.
The fact that there are people who don't conform to a strictly binary system already "disproves" such a system. To prove a hypothesis such as, "there can only be A and B", can be exceedingly difficult; but it's fairly easy to "disprove" it - you just need to find one(1) exception.

 

[Foxi4]

True, I don't tend to use words such as "abnormal", "defect", etc. as easily. And I do apologize for my insensitivity with regard to the language differences.
My previous wheelchair analogy still applies, though. Regardless if you consider it a "defect", the point is they're people who exist. As long as there's one person affected by it, defect or not, their rights should not be ignored.
The fact that there are people who don't conform to a strictly binary system already "disproves" such a system. To prove a hypothesis such as, "there can only be A and B", can be exceedingly difficult; but it's fairly easy to "disprove" it - you just need to find one(1) exception.

An exception of a rule does not create a new rule - it simply means that the rule is not set in stone, every rule has exceptions. We generally have two sexes that actively participate in the cycle of reproducion - male and female. There are no other sexes, just malfunctioning mixes of the forementioned. An "Intersex" has no technical purpose, it's simply nature's "slip" during the development of the fetus, it's not a "sex" per-say.

I'm far from "ignoring" the rights of the "Intersex" people, much like I wouldn't ignore people who are handicapped. It's not like it's their choice to be born different. What I was saying was that at the end of the day they are either "more male" or "more female", it's simply a matter of percentages.

I'm wholeheartedly for sex adjustment operations and therapies, not just because of my belief in the binary system, but also for the health of those people. Wrongly-developed reproduction organs may cause unwanted pressure on inner organs that may lead to certain complications. Non-balanced levels of hormones may lead to wrongly-developing glands typically associated with given sexes, for example the thyroid, which in turn may lead to their overgrowth. I could go on and on about the "dangers" of hermaphrodism.

You can't have "the best of both worlds", in most cases it's highly recommended to lean towards the side a given body is better-developed towards, and the earlier the better.

 

[Midna]

Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
get wrote up for it.

A) A pupil/student is supposed to do his buisness BEFORE the lesson starts - there are breaks between courses/lessons/lectures there for a reason, y'know.

Aw please don't ever, ever be a teacher. I hate teachers like you.

The breaks are when the students have their drinks. Make sense?

 

[Gahars]

Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
get wrote up for it.

A) A pupil/student is supposed to do his buisness BEFORE the lesson starts - there are breaks between courses/lessons/lectures there for a reason, y'know.

Aw please don't ever, ever be a teacher. I hate teachers like you.

The breaks are when the students have their drinks. Make sense?

To be fair, there are several breaks throughout the day. Use the bathroom during one and drink during the rest if you have to. Plus, lunch periods offer another chance.

It isn't that hard to manage.

 

[Hells Malice]

Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
get wrote up for it.

A) A pupil/student is supposed to do his buisness BEFORE the lesson starts - there are breaks between courses/lessons/lectures there for a reason, y'know.

Aw please don't ever, ever be a teacher. I hate teachers like you.

The breaks are when the students have their drinks. Make sense?

My school system had 4 classes over the entire day. So they were what...hour and a half, almost, classes. Not one person wet themselves. Breaks are for bathroom BREAKS. You don't need to go during class, and even if you do, most teachers DO let their students go.
If they don't, wet yourself. They'll never keep a kid from going ever again.

 

[leic7]

An exception of a rule does not create a new rule - it simply means that the rule is not set in stone, every rule has exceptions. We generally have two sexes that actively participate in the cycle of reproducion - male and female. There are no other sexes, just malfunctioning mixes of the forementioned. An "Intersex" has no technical purpose, it's simply nature's "slip" during the development of the fetus, it's not a "sex" per-say.

I'm far from "ignoring" the rights of the "Intersex" people, much like I wouldn't ignore people who are handicapped. It's not like it's their choice to be born different. What I was saying was that at the end of the day they are either "more male" or "more female", it's simply a matter of percentages.

I'm wholeheartedly for sex adjustment operations and therapies, not just because of my belief in the binary system, but also for the health of those people. Wrongly-developed reproduction organs may cause unwanted pressure on inner organs that may lead to certain complications. Non-balanced levels of hormones may lead to wrongly-developing glands typically associated with given sexes, for example the thyroid, which in turn may lead to their overgrowth. I could go on and on about the "dangers" of hermaphrodism.

You can't have "the best of both worlds", in most cases it's highly recommended to lean towards the side a given body is better-developed towards, and the earlier the better.

I'm happy to hear you say that rule isn't set in stone - I've thought you were arguing otherwise all along. Now, whether or not something has a "technical purpose" that you can comprehend is irrelevant to the concept of evolution via natural selection, variations (including mutations) within a population of a species are integral to the process of evolution. The role of science is merely to observe and document what's out there, determining whose existence is and isn't considered "socially acceptable" is not science.

I don't know what kind of definition you've been using for "male" and "female"? Care to elaborate? For most of the commonly used definitions I've seen, there always seem to be some people who don't fit a strictly two-sex system; thus, I think they're inadequate.

 

[Foxi4]

I usually tend to go by common sense and from the general towards the details. To put it bluntly and in general terms, a male is an organism that expresses male characteristics, a female is an organism that expresses female characteristics, and of course we're talking about "the majority of biological characteristics" - I recognize the fact that there are manly women and feminene men, that doesn't magically change their sex. It's not so much the deffinition that matters here, but the methods of distinction.

The easiest and most obvious way is checking the external reproductive organs, but since we're on the intersex subject, let's assume that the results are not conclusive. In that case, the next logical step would be to check what kind of gonades are created - sperms or eggs. If neither are created, we should check how matters look on the internal side of things - whether there are testicles present or not, whether there are ovaries, a uterus and whatnot. Here a 3D ultrasound technique bears best results since you don't have to operate. In case we have "both" present, then we should determine which ones are active. If both are active, then we should determine which ones present higher activity, and thus find out the "sex". If neither are active (which is a shame), we should determine the sex based upon the level of hormones. The sets are never even, there will always be more male or more female hormones present.

Using that kind of approach you can - from the general towards the details, narrow the "sex" down to the choice between one of the two - male or female, based upon actual characteristics of a given person. If that's not a proper, scientific approach then I don't know what is.


Back to the subject, it is the gender that determines most of our social relations, not the sex, however not in this particular case, simply because we're thinking about the collective of students more than about the individual, I hope you understand my point.

 

[leic7]

Your common sense is not necessarily the same as another person's common sense.

Devising a method to determine which one of the 2 prescribed labels should be used on someone, BEFORE having a clear definition of what those labels are, is not how people usually do things in the scientific community. A big problem with that approach is: How do we know there are exactly 2 labels in the first place? i.e. we could just as easily have 10 different categories for sex, and devising a method to see who falls under which of the 10 wouldn't be any more difficult. It's the equivalence of pre-determining the outcome of an experiment, and then doing an experiment with the "results" that fall in line with the preset outcome; and if they don't, well, make them fall in line anyway.

What I find difficult to follow is this: at one point you seemed to acknowledge there are biological exceptions to the binary rule; yet, you're suggesting that any and all exceptions could be made to fit the binary rule anyway (which would imply the exceptions are not true exceptions to the rule). So... do you actually acknowledge there are "true" biological exceptions?

And sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "the collective of students"...