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  1. Deleted User

    OP Deleted User Newbie

    I have mixed feelings about coronavirus vaccines.

    On one hand, the drastic measures it takes to control the spread of the coronavirus compromise peoples' quality of life and countries' economies. This is a deadly virus and survivors have shared some rather painful stories about their experiences. Anti-vax groups give me the shits and I'm tempted to say that a vaccine should be made mandatory just to spite them, fuck consent.

    On the other hand, the coronavirus is highly politised and pharmaceutical companies have a financial incentive to be the first to release a vaccine to the market. I fear that those who document the vaccines' side-effects during testing phases are biased in vaccines' favour. I also tend to be paranoid.
     
  2. Seliph

    Seliph Antifa gamer gf
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    Vaccines would be great if we just had socialized healthcare (mainly in the US, although I know this is an issue in other countries too).
     
  3. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA *Attack on Titan S1 opening intensifies*
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    Paid for by hefty taxes, with lower quality, where you're put on a long waiting list. Sounds great!
     
  4. Seliph

    Seliph Antifa gamer gf
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    Taxes? I never said anything about the government being involved.
     
    Last edited by Seliph, Sep 7, 2020
  5. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA *Attack on Titan S1 opening intensifies*
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    Oh, right...I'm talking to an anarchist.
     
  6. Seliph

    Seliph Antifa gamer gf
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    Yes :)
     
  7. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA *Attack on Titan S1 opening intensifies*
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    Imagine living in an alternate reality where modern-day Portland is the size of the US. That's anarchy.
     
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  8. omgcat

    omgcat GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    the taxes you pay for universal healthcare are always lower than the standard premiums + deductions you pay already with private insurance. also waiting lists are for non-emergency problems, if you are having an emergency, standard priority takes effect. also the USA has almost the worst price per quality of all of the 1st world countries. although being 15 I'm not sure you know much about premiums, deductibles, and taxes anyways.
     
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  9. Seliph

    Seliph Antifa gamer gf
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  10. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA *Attack on Titan S1 opening intensifies*
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    So I was wrong about the quality part. Everything else was correct.

    Even if it's at a lower cost comparatively, it's still a large increase in taxes. You're able to choose what service you want when it's not funded by taxes.

    As for the waiting list, sure, emergencies got treated ASAP, but what about vaccines?
     
  11. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    Of course pharmaceutical companies have a financial incentive to be the first to develop, trial and release a working vaccine - that's the best kind of incentive there is. In fact, I personally wouldn't want them to have any other motive. Problems arise when governments waive the commonly accepted trial procedures agreed upon in the scientific community - that's dangerous. Recently governments worldwide have begun throwing around exemptions in the event of product liability claims as a way of further incentivising pharmaceutical companies to produce vaccines as quickly as possible - basically they'll be shielding them against any consequences of releasing a shoddily made product because "time is of the essence" when, statistically speaking, it really isn't. These trial rules don't exist for laughs, they've been developed in order to minimise the risk of side effects. For some reason the plan seems to be "keep everything locked down until we have a working vaccine and then force everyone to take it", which is a strategy based in panic as opposed to reason. Normally the process of developing, testing and releasing a vaccine takes anywhere between 5 to 15 years, just the pre-clinical stage alone is often 1-2 years, meanwhile the COVID-19 vaccine is expected to be done and dusted within a few months. I wouldn't call that safe, responsible practice - none of those vaccines will go through the usual rigors they should be subject to, so here's for hoping they get it right the first time. On the other hand, in an ideal world the government would be removed from this process altogether, pharmaceutical companies would operate independently, release products on their own schedule and bear all liability if those products turn out to be harmful, so I can't exactly complain when the vaccine is fast tracked through. Personally I'm in no particular hurry - I absolutely encourage everyone who is immunocompromised to take it as soon as it's available so that we can resume living our lives normally instead of having to suffer through the current circus. I myself will probably take it as well once it's proven to be safe, although truth to be told, I'm not in a high risk group and have no underlying conditions, so the virus doesn't really worry me.
    I've lived under two separate universal single payer healthcare systems so far and between the two I would much rather pick the secret third option and go to the vet - my guts can't possibly be that much different than those of a dog or a cat, and I at least get to skip the 4+ hour queue in the emergency room/5+ year wait for basic procedures. Jokes aside, it's only pretty when you look at it from a distance, the flaws of this setup become obvious once you've experienced it. As far as the U.S. is concerned, you guys may have had private healthcare some 200 years ago when you'd go to the doctor and pay on your way out - right now you have a weird insurance company oligopoly backed by government funding and crooked legislation - if you want to talk about private healthcare, Switzerland is what you should look at. U.S. healthcare can't be fixed, it has to be torn down and replaced with something that's not fundamentally stupid. That's neither here nor there though, since this thread isn't about universal vs private healthcare.
     
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  12. omgcat

    omgcat GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    most standard deductible are $6k+ on top of $500-$1100 per month which means you would need to spend more than $6k to start having the insurance take over on top of $12k per year in premiums. medical insurance in America is a joke, your tax burden for universal healthcare in Canada averages 6k, which means the average American would be saving $12k per year in medical coverage. this is also not including the out of pocket cost for medications which are always covered under universal healthcare. in summery, you would be saving $12+k a year in costs, coverage for everyone, and better medical standards.

    oh and you are free to buy your own medical coverage as well, since the public option does not remove private options.

    on another note, i will only trust a vaccine once it has been approved in multiple European countries. the fiasco with the FDA, and CDC has left me with no confidence.
     
    Last edited by omgcat, Sep 7, 2020
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  13. Goku1992A

    Goku1992A GBAtemp Maniac
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    Nothing you can do about it the vaccine is going to be mandatory
     
  14. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA *Attack on Titan S1 opening intensifies*
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    Science isn't about "why", it's about "why not". "Why is so much of our science dangerous?" Why not marry "safe science" if you love it so much? In fact, why not invent a special "safety door" that won't hit you on the butt on the way out, because you are FIRED! Not you, test subject, you're doing fine. Yes. You. Fired. Box. Your stuff. Out the front door. Parking lot. Car. Goodbye.

    I haven't actually played Portal 2, I just watched a video about the ARG and loved this line.
     
  15. Costello

    Costello Headmaster
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    My opinions on coronavirus vaccines is - I'll be getting one, one of the safe ones that will have been tested on a large numbers of people. I'd probably trust the Oxford one but I don't know when it'll land.

    I'm lucky enough to live in a country where the entire political isn't corrupt and the government is doing a good job, from the looks of it. A lot of scientists and industry professionals, not just career politicians. So if they approve one particular vaccine there's a strong chance it'll be on solid grounds, in consequence, I'd trust that vaccine.

    Not getting a vaccine would be detrimental to the economy. If there aren't enough people vaccinated herd immunity won't work, therefore the pandemic will continue and entire industries will be at risk. On the other hand once a vaccine is available for the general public worldwide, you could just decide to get vaccinated, and if you don't, you'd have to fully bear the consequences (insurances wouldn't cover treatment if you aren't vaccinated, and such)
     
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  16. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Study design is set up so bias is removed as much as possible. (F.e.: Double blind.) If you have no political intervention, you should be good. (If you temper with large scale study results, it should show in the data.)

    Also - public fallback. So while yes, multiple companies are racing to be first - it would be mostly for reputational gains. We brought down profits in vaccine development so much, that especially their production is highly centralized, and you are dealing with maybe 5 international large scale producers of vaccines, whose money lies in mass production.

    So whoever develops a viable candidate, actually would profit most from reputational gains, not from 'make money quick' schemes to follow. (Need to elaborate, for this to make sense. ;) Whoever will become a candidate that gets mass produced, will get 'get rich money' quick, but you will not necessarily have 'schemes', because you cant get over the threashhold of producing vaccines en mass as a smaller company. Large players in the field have an incentive not to want to get kicked out of business by reputational costs of a failed vaccine, so they also are interested in having everything go above board. Or they are done in the business. So 'go scramble' culture ends after vaccine development.) Which means, if after phase 3 testing you have high rates of side effects - whatever you gained from 'being first' goes bye bye. Also phase 3 testing is set up to get an idea about edit: effectiveness at large scale. Also, testing should be independent, again, following test design thats there to eliminate passive, or active biases.

    Vaccines will _not_ be made mandatory (at least at first), because you are dealing with a new 'target audience' thats not used to getting vaccinated after childhood, and doing so would result in lower compliance.


    Highest risk imho are political pressures to release too early (as we've seen with the russian vaccine and countries who ordered those shots early). See f.e.: https://www.dw.com/en/philippines-p...vaccine-clinical-trials-in-october/a-54548273 (That said: https://www.dw.com/en/russia-vaccine-sputnik-coronavirus/a-54819322 )

    edit: Here is how most (state) contracts are set up:
    https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-vaccine-nationalism-covid-19-us-germany-gavi/a-54634662

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    Phases of vaccine development (normally):

    [​IMG]

    Translation:

    2-5 years: Research. Analyzing the virus, understanding what causes the immune reaction.

    2-5 years: Pre clinical development. Design of the vaccine: Which components. Animal trials: Side effects, effectiveness.

    3-7 years: Clinical trials
    Phase 1: What effects does it produce in people. 10-30 volunteers needed in testing
    Phase 2: Dosage testing. 50-500 volunteers needed in testing
    Phase 3: Effectiveness testing: >1000 volunteers needed in testing

    1-2 years: Approval by national health agencies

    several years: Production: - building facilities, trial operation, mass production, packaging, transport

    several years: Vaccination campaigns: Ideally world wide

    source: vfa (trade association): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verband_Forschender_Arzneimittelhersteller


    edit: On double blind testing vaccines:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157320/
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 7, 2020
  17. Nemix77

    Nemix77 GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Probably going to be free vaccine in Canada when it's available, we have free health care.

    At the moment we just don't know which one the Canadian government will choose.
     
  18. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    The simpler answer would be: When was the last time you heard of a vaccine having gone 'horribly wrong'?

    To which the counter argument is: But this time it was rushed.

    To which the counter argument is: What steps, though. (At which point you'd need in depth knowledge about vaccine development, so the average listener clinks out.)

    Also, I have to state, that the OP basically says, 'I'm not an anti-vaccer, but I believe all their arguments without reflection', help me Obi-wan.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 7, 2020
  19. MMX

    MMX Advanced Member
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    how about I can choose? Choice is great right? Consent is great right?

    if YOU want to get the vaccine, fine. You and your people are safe.
    if someone else doesn't - then by that logic doesn't he get sick and die? then problem solved too.


    who pays the doctors? who pays for the vaccine? The Government? The Government has no money, it gets money from taxes.
    When people tell me taxes are great because that's how you have Streets, but when it's about Healthcare it suddenly is not from taxes it's "FREE"
     
    Last edited by MMX, Sep 7, 2020
  20. campbell0505

    campbell0505 GBAtemp Regular
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    Vaccines are easy. I live in Australia, with an actual good healthcare system, and what you usually do is book it at your local doctors a day or two before, and then go there at your appointment time and get it, it’s quick and easy. Most times it free, at most: $15. Id rather pay slightly higher taxes than pay 1000s at the hospital and go into debt
     
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