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  1. depaul

    depaul GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    The virus exists, and it's spreading intelligently and continuously. It is malicious.

    Look at India they were doing fine until the numbers spiked lately, reaching about 90.000 cases daily.

    God help us all.
     
    Last edited by depaul, Sep 7, 2020
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  2. MMX

    MMX Advanced Member
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    are you white or not?
     
  3. Lucifer666

    Lucifer666 all the world needs is me
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    Dude, no. I'm Arab. Not that it makes a shred of a difference.

    I'm confused as to why you would even bring up my ethnicity in a discussion about healthcare, in a thread about vaccines.
     
  4. MMX

    MMX Advanced Member
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    Arabs are white
     
  5. sarkwalvein

    sarkwalvein There's hope for a Xenosaga port.
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    Ok... tell that to a white supremacist /s
     
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  6. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Go one better.
    Tell that to an Arab supremacist.

    Ethnicity/race does have some bearing on healthcare (sickle cell rather less prevalent in those of European ancestry, skin cancer on the other hand is, this list goes on for a long time), and may even in this scenario.
    The news was awash with reports on lesser outcomes in those not of European ancestry a while back. Nobody quite made any inroads into why (genetic factor, cultural factor, health factor*) but at this point in the game that matters rather less than not; if the prevalence of fat people in such a community is higher enough that bothers them in these stats then people are suddenly not going to not be fat, even with all the will in the world (which there is not) that is a months long process, so you get to account for that and devise around it/mitigate it if saving the most people/avoiding the most negative outcomes (possibly while balancing other needs) is the goal.

    *obesity, smoking rates and various other risk factors or related ones seemingly more prevalent in some of those groupings, however I have yet to grab stats or see them lined up and tested for.
     
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  7. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Virus is not sentient, and mortality rate in people below 60 isnt high.

    Mask wearing in high risk areas helps. Also there are other means that help statistically, but cost more. (Real costs, economy.)

    What is your opinion on coronavirus vaccines:
    Only on gbatemp. (Does a thread stray so far from topic into 'race identity' by page 3.)

    Sorry, I missed that news item entirely, would you mind sharing? (Germany has amongst the lowest death rates in the west.)

    edit Data: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
    (second graph)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 8, 2020
  8. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52219070
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/explainers-52969054
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53651954
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-understanding-the-impact-on-bame-communities
    https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...nes/coronavirus/coronavirus-and-bame-patients (I see these guys actually made a stab at identifying factors and looking at stats properly unlike the rest I had seen prior so that is nice. For reference the British Heart Foundation are some top tier researchers on heart and circulation matters. While vascular is probably the main thing to follow cardio in most titles then pulmonology, the study of lungs/respiratory systems, is not so very far behind).
    https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events...ecting-children-young-people-bame-communities

    Afraid you will have to look past the utterly idiotic "BAME" phrase (short for black and minority ethnic). Not sure when that got picked up and used widely but eh.
     
  9. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Will read up on it, still most likely cultural, imho.

    If you compare with case fatality rates in countries that should have the capability to test. Of course, geographic differences (climate).
    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


    edit: Here: Look at this:
    [​IMG]
    src: https://www.fom.ac.uk/wp-content/up...ff-at-risk-of-COVID-19-infection-12-05-20.pdf

    Other staff value especially. Low case numbers, so high statistical variance and variability possible - but if this would be statistically 'solid' my first impression would be - cultural. See also high percentage of BAME doctors in the workforce.

    edit:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41415-020-1781-6

    For black african populations risk is 4.3 times higher in the UK, which is astonishing. For Black Caribbeans it only is 2.5 times higher though, so there goes our skin color based explanation. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 7, 2020
  10. DinohScene

    DinohScene Feed Dino to the Sharks
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    Please stop using drugs.
     
  11. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    He's not entirely wrong. While most would classify Arabs as a distinct ethnic group, they fall well-within the Caucasian phenotype in terms of race and are considered Caucasian by the U.S. Census. These classifications are pretty dated and formerly there used to be a separate "Arabid" racial category, a subset of the Semitic peoples, but it's been long since deprecated. Having "olive" skin doesn't automatically subscribe a person to a different racial group, people of Middle Eastern, European, North African and aboriginal West Asian descent are in fact considered Caucasian, if you consider race to be of taxonomical importance. Most people don't, nowadays we focus more on cultural ancestry, race is a touchy and difficult subject.
     
  12. Deleted User

    OP Deleted User Newbie

    Not true. Unvaccinated people spread diseases to children who are too young to be vaccinated and people with medical conditions which stop them from being safely vaccinated. We can only stop vaccinating when and if a disease is eradicated from the wild. Take smallpox for example.

    If you can vaccinate, you must vaccinate.
    The Australian government will likely heavily disadvantage people who refuse a coronavirus vaccine. Not sure about the UK.
    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-tough-rules-people-refuse-COVID-19-jab.html

    To my understanding, currently parents who do not vaccinate their children cannot get financial support from the government. I support this approach when you're dealing with vaccines which have been given adequate time to evaluate their safety.
     
    Last edited Sep 8, 2020
  13. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter
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    My opinion is that it shouldn't be rushed aside some non - medical means (eg if the normal procedure is 'wait until previous patents are thoroughly tested'... Then it can take priority over other medicines). @Foxi4 already outlined the dangers of rushing.

    But once available, it should be really available to everyone. I won't speak on behalf of the US for civil reasons, but it should be obligated at to the groups where it's safe to do so.

    I take it by your racist derailing of his reply that he burst your ignorant bubble of bullshit so well that you have no defense whatsoever.
     
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  14. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    He/she did not.

    In the Cutter incident, the company in question - as well as all companies at the time, had a problem with killing the polio virus they would use in their vaccine. This was known internally in one case, where they discarded batches, but didnt report it. This was before liability laws were installed that prevent companies from doing that without being legally liable. This was a manufacturing issue, not a vaccine creation issue. This had nothing to do with development being rushed. This would be prevented today by the mere fact, that nowadays you only have half a dozen of manufacturers, that can produce vaccines at scale (and they still want to be in business 10 years from now). This would be prevented today by the mere fact, that we aren just sticking dead Covid in a tube with the development of this vaccine - we are basically isolating part of its RNA and splicing it into a carrier virus, or modifying another virus in a way that antibodies would be produced that would also work for Covid. Or just manufacture the entire thing, but make sure to leave the parts out, that make it a living organism.

    If you entirely make up your reality - why make it an effing dystopia. If you are too lazy to read, again - dont participate.

    Again if you had read the articles already posted, you wouldnt have to make wishes to the universe. You would already know, that people in deciding positions already know that leaving out parts of the world is a bad idea as the virus can start propagating from there again. At the same time, nations payed sometimes for 6x the needed dosis to be produced by different manufacturers, just to get a working vaccine as soon as possible, when ready (after clinical testing finished), and they did so to minimize economic damage to their economies. The US - by far - bought up the most capacity. Efforts to finance vaccine development/production entities for poorer nations largely failed so far, but there are pledges, to allocate capacity to poorer countries and donate (this ensures, that economic gains remain in western countries). Largest vaccine manufacturer by volume also is situated in India. Efforts to open up and share intellectual property, werent met with too much enthusiasm on part of the rights holders, so that isnt happening to a large extent.

    As far as distribution in western countries is concerned, medical personal is first, then come older people, and by virtue of them paying more, probably international business travelers. At least in countries with a national health system (that still allow private parties to pay more to fasttrack their 'position in line'). All of that is already decided. But then governments with national health systems currently are buying up capacity 'for their entire countries'.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Sep 8, 2020
  15. TheCasualties

    TheCasualties Just trying to be helpful
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    Oh wow, imagine living in a reality where people can get the health care that they need.. without having to pay out the ass to get it. Wow. Mind blowing.

    On topic, IDK what there is to discuss.. if it works, great. If not it is a game of deception. No surprise there.
     
    Last edited by TheCasualties, Sep 8, 2020
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  16. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA President Elect of the United States of Reality
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    The market sets the prices based on supply and demand. This is how it should be.
     
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  17. TheCasualties

    TheCasualties Just trying to be helpful
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    Yes corporations should decide who lives and who dies.. yes. wonderful.

    (Sarcastic if not obvious)

    Have you ever seen Idiocracy? @UltraSUPRA

    Ignorance and distraction is the source of Samsara (cycle of struggle), Honestly I really hope "our mind" (the collective mind) will come to know itself. The news cycle is exploiting this to make everyone basically zombies.

    Getting super meta/meditiation: We can reach a pure awareness of consciousness, but we chose aspects to attach ourselves with, witch separate ourselves from others. But we are all one consciousness.

    I know most won't listen to this but the Buddha nature could put an end to this suffering:

    The nature of Mindfulness could put an end to this suffering but it won't happen in this lifetime.
     
    Last edited by TheCasualties, Sep 8, 2020
  18. omgcat

    omgcat GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    that's econ 101, the rest of economics go on to explain why econ 101 does not play out in reality. Healthcare in the USA is in a quasi-regulated state as of now, so standard market forces do not apply. if we had true free markets, there would be no medical patents, as that puts regulations on the market. The USA manipulates it's healthcare in the worst ways. honestly I'm looking forward to medical debt not being ejectable with bankruptcy like student loans are. then we can live in the true hellscape we always knew it could be.
     
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  19. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    This doesnt work in this case. Upfront costs to do all research are too high for a Covid vaccine to be on the short list of manufacturers. Everyone acknowledged, that this has to be distributed to as many people as possible at almost no cost. Or immunization doesnt work. Which means, high investment, ultra low margin, and once people have had it, they are cured (for a while at least, information on scale still outstanding). As a result vaccine development in this case was very far down on the priority list of any biolab. So states had to come in and flood those companies with money to install incentives.

    This happened in this very case. Read up on it.
     
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  20. Foxi4

    Foxi4 Cynical Absurdist
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    People who say that supply and demand doesn't work have a hard time understanding that morality doesn't play a role in the market - the market by definition is an impartial force. It is inherently immoral to burden anyone with your own expenses - it's not your money. You are effectively stealing, you're just feeling good about it because you have a skewed understanding of right and wrong. There are multiple reasons why healthcare is expensive in America, none of which were caused by how market forces operate. The current situation is a logical consequence of bone-headed welfare and insurance legislation, as well as an attempt at wage control that dates back all the way to WWII and created the employer-based insurance system. Supply and demand had nothing to do with pricing lower class people out of the healthcare market, social reform did. There are countless examples of countries with free market healthcare systems that operate very well and offer high quality, accessible healthcare - sadly the United States isn't one of them after years upon years of reform that aimed at having the cake and still eating it at the same time.
     
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