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Trump allegedly indicted in a Georgia 2020 subversion probe
Yes, do that, creep. You may be surprised, but your nonsense is not a priority to read - and as usual, your word salads are difficult to navigate because of that much rubbish coating the few (poor) points.
oh so like a total creep, unsurprising. Glad that's out in the open, NPC stalker.
LOL a study of the same quality of that nonsense you posted in the past? That's Regnerus-like quality, great for pet bedding and nothing else.
EDIT: for those of you who don't remember, this is what I mean by Regnerus-like.
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Yes, do that, creep. You may be surprised, but your nonsense is not a priority to read - and as usual, your word salads are difficult to navigate because of that much rubbish coating the few (poor) points.
If you’re not going to return to the topic and choose to continue attacking me personally for no reason (which I predicted and demonstrated well ahead of time), you’ll force my hand and I’ll have no choice but to enforce board rules and community standards. There’s only so many times I can tell you that I’m not interested in having a conversation with you. Heed my request and stick to the topic without attacking other user’s character in the process. Consider this your verbal notice.
If you’re not going to return to the topic and choose to continue attacking me personally for no reason (which I predicted and demonstrated well ahead of time
You did nothing of the sort and, frankly, if we want to dot the is and cross the ts, you started it. so don't parade your undeserved mod status around, as it's a mystery how you got it in the first place, every thread you participate in turns into a dumpster fire, because of you. And if you think I'm interested in engaging with your NPC self, you're sadly mistaken. Now, we are not interested in talking to each other, but you're not the only one who can snipe on other users without directly naming them. If you didn't want me to intervene, you shouldn't have quoted me. So, apply the standards to yourself first.
EDIT: in fact, you started sniping with personal attacks at other users before me so... I think your mod status should be revoked if you're going to wave it around to threaten people with it.
So, not do what you did literally on page 1 and 2. OK.
Having said that, and returning to the point of the topic, I will say it plainly: your "not seeing" anything out of the ordinary in Trump's call is either a display of bad faith or an attempt to ragebait, not unusual for this section of the board.
And no, this is not a "personal attack" because I'd say it of anyone who made the same point. In fact, I'm fairly certain that I did whenever this phone call was mentioned and I was involved.
EDIT2: and for the avoidance of doubt, this is the call transcript.
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And for the lazy ones, extracts.
Trump's Assertion on Votes
Trump: "So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state."
Allegations of Dishonesty
Trump: "The people of Georgia are angry, the people in the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you've recalculated."
Claims of Fraudulent Votes
Trump: "You had out-of-state voters. They voted in Georgia, but they were from out of state, of 4,925."
Doubting the Signature Verification Process
Trump: "And you're going to find that they are — which is totally illegal — it is more illegal for you than it is for them because, you know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's a criminal, that's a criminal offense."
Raffensperger's Response to Trump's Claims
Raffensperger: "Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong."
Trump's Pressure on Raffensperger
Trump: "And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, that you've recalculated."
Claims of a Rigged Election
Trump: "So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election, and it's not fair to take it away from us like this."
Raffensperger's Firm Stance
Raffensperger: "We believe that we do have an accurate election."
Trump's Allegation of a Cover-up
Trump: "You know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's a criminal offense. And you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer."
Trump's Mention of Potential Legal Consequences
Trump: "You know, that's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That's a big risk."
In order to present a proof of a theory, there’s this pesky part of having to demonstrate it that’s unavoidable. It was a little tongue in cheek, but you had to turn nasty in response, as you tend to do. I’m giving you plenty notice that I’m not interested in an actual discussion, I’m simply quoting your response as an example of what I said earlier. If I did want to have a chat, I would’ve asked you a question or addressed what you were saying. You melted down and spent an entire page talking about me instead of talking about Trump. Even in your vain attempt to say something that’s related to the OP, you couldn’t help yourself but talk about me instead. I’m flattered that you find me so interesting and that I occupy this much of your time, but it’s not mutual and your advances are in vain. I’m afraid that I can’t allow you to deride other users, myself included, as you tend to do habitually - I’m nipping this in the bud. Nobody’s parading anything here - I am reminding you that you are bound by the same rules as everybody else and that I won’t shy from enforcing them just because I happen to be the target of your ire today. I always do so reluctantly, so I’m *telling* you to stop first - I don’t have to do that, I can just bin any off-topic nonsense, ad hominems and insults there and then. This is a courtesy I extend to you because you’re entitled to use this section, just in a polite and respectful manner. Can you do that? I don’t like unnecessary conflict.
You don't like it, but you sure like to stir it. anyway, instead of writing this baiting pamphlet, which is something you always do because, for the benefit of everyone, writing something like this
I posted the whole transcript and 10 highlights of it. What did you do that was constructive to OP topic, except stating your opinion?
Here's an idea: you could point out which one of the 10 points of the call I listed was the one that left you most indifferent. And not for me eh, mind you.
The indictments have taken three years to happen (notice how they're all happening at once now) because this is how the Democrats intend to prevent the public from voting Trump into office again. It's not so much about punishing him for 2020, or yeah these indictments could've happened at least 2 years ago. I mean, they'll take that part too and enjoy it, but the real purpose here is to fix next year's election. It's election interference by lawfare.
That seems to be made up, if anything by leaving it this late they make it less likely they can prevent him from getting into office again.
They have bent over backwards to make sure that they have built their case to avoid it being interference.
I didn't care whether America had a republican or democrat president, but Trump is a criminal. I don't think active criminals should be president, even if they say things that they know will make you want to vote for them.
The guy has been campaigning instead of working through his entire presidency, except that month or so he spent skulking in January. it was impossible to indict in any other context.
I posted the whole transcript and 10 highlights of it. What did you do that was constructive to OP topic, except stating your opinion?
Here's an idea: you could point out which one of the 10 points of the call I listed was the one that left you most indifferent. And not for me eh, mind you.
First of all, you added that in an edit - I’m afraid that I’m unable to respond to content that I haven’t seen as I was already typing a reply to you. Secondly, I’m not interested in having *any* conversations with you whatsoever - this one is taking place because it has to, not because I find it personally enjoyable. I was pretty clear on that part. I’m far more interested in what @Xzi or @Taleweaver have to say - they’re much more interesting individuals to me.
The guy has been campaigning instead of working through his entire presidency, except that month or so he spent skulking in January. it was impossible to indict in any other context.
I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that out loud because someone said "oh this is a conspiracy to prevent him from running". Someone ELSE instead said that this was going to work like a Damocles' sword for him, something like "drop out of the race and this problem will disappear" but I think that theory is ineffectual now, there's too many indictments.
I think that through dialogue we can all learn different things from each other, particularly if we allow ourselves to be exposed to different points of view. Unfortunately, that requires two interested parties capable of making a concerted effort to communicate respectfully. You have failed that test multiple times, so I’m just not interested in conversing with you. Maybe if you ever change your demeanour I might change my mind, but I don’t think you’re capable of doing that. In any case, Trump.
The prosecutions, even if they were successful, would not bar Trump from running. If anything, they’re a disruption to his on-going campaign, which some would argue is the entire point. The part people find suspicious is that indictments are coming to a head at the same time while the investigations started at wildly different times. Whether that’s coincidental or not is up in the air - earlier I proposed that it very well might be since once someone “breaks the ice”, others may feel more emboldened to push their charges forward solely based on that. Not everything’s a conspiracy.
The prosecutions, even if they were successful, would not bar Trump from running. If anything, they’re a disruption to his on-going campaign, which some would argue is the entire point. The part people find suspicious is that indictments are coming to a head at the same time while the investigations started at wildly different times. Whether that’s coincidental or not is up in the air - earlier I proposed that it very well might be since once someone “breaks the ice”, others may feel more emboldened to push their charges forward solely based on that. Not everything’s a conspiracy.
I have no knowledge of why the indictments happened when they did, neither do the people who find it suspicious.
From a disruption point of view, it would seem to me that it would have been far more disruptive if Trump was defending himself in court month after month for the last 2 years. So people might be suspicious, but that is more to do with their own bias than it is to do with reality.
If they had started prosecuting Trump in 2021 then it would have boosted the sentiment to ban criminals who subverted democracy from ever holding office & would have given them time to do it. If they waited on purpose then they threw away that chance.
Some of these indictments may have come about from evidence that was collected for, or plea deals from witnesses in, other cases,
"It's not fair, you're bringing up evidence of crimes I committed all at the same time" is not a good defense.
I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that out loud because someone said "oh this is a conspiracy to prevent him from running". Someone ELSE instead said that this was going to work like a Damocles' sword for him, something like "drop out of the race and this problem will disappear" but I think that theory is ineffectual now, there's too many indictments.
It's clearly not a conspiracy, or it's the shittiest conspiracy in the world. Of course they want to stop him running. In the same way that when they put a prisoner on death row for murder, they want to stop him living.
This was never going away if Trump stood down. Like a murder charge doesn't go away if you promise to stop murdering people.
He will probably not do any time, but there is always
I have no knowledge of why the indictments happened when they did, neither do the people who find it suspicious.
From a disruption point of view, it would seem to me that it would have been far more disruptive if Trump was defending himself in court month after month for the last 2 years. So people might be suspicious, but that is more to do with their own bias than it is to do with reality.
If they had started prosecuting Trump in 2021 then it would have boosted the sentiment to ban criminals who subverted democracy from ever holding office & would have given them time to do it. If they waited on purpose then they threw away that chance.
Some of these indictments may have come about from evidence that was collected for, or plea deals from witnesses in, other cases,
Things are only a news flash when they’re actually news, we’re in a 24 hour news cycle - if prosecuting Trump just became the new normal over the course of many years, the electorate would likely grow numb to it. Sure, political orbiters would still care, but I don’t know if the general public would - there’s an element of exhaustion here that you’re neglecting. If anything, I’m surprised that all of this wasn’t sprung on Trump even later - that would’ve had a more profound impact on polling data. So far, while the indictments do seem to have a somewhat small negative effect on independents, they have a strongly *galvanising* effect on his core base, so if reducing his support was the aim, the “plan” had “failed” in that respect. Those who think that “the establishment is after Trump” will only hold that belief more strongly as a result. Then again, I don’t really know what would change people’s mind on Trump. As I mentioned earlier, we all know he’s a crook. We knew that from the start. This doesn’t change the calculus to wide swathes of people.
I hope the clown show ends quickly, either throw him in jail or stop wasting everyone's time and money. I feel like Trump could avoid all of this if he just backed away, they would probably even pretend they always liked him like they did with Bush. I don't want to see other clowns like Biden get away with crap just because of Trump, what Biden did with Ukraine was completely ridiculous and should have him in jail.. not have Trump impeached for asking about it. We shouldn't let the media and democrats demonize half of the population just because of Trump either.
Things are only a news flash when they’re actually news, we’re in a 24 hour news cycle - if prosecuting Trump just became the new normal over the course of many years, the electorate would likely grow numb to it. Sure, political orbiters would still care, but I don’t know if the general public would - there’s an element of exhaustion here that you’re neglecting. If anything, I’m surprised that all of this wasn’t sprung on Trump even later - that would’ve had a more profound impact on polling data. So far, while the indictments do seem to have a somewhat small negative effect on independents, they have a strongly *galvanising* effect on his core base, so if reducing his support was the aim, the “plan” had “failed” in that respect. Those who think that “the establishment is after Trump” will only hold that belief more strongly as a result. Then again, I don’t really know what would change people’s mind on Trump. As I mentioned earlier, we all know he’s a crook. We knew that from the start. This doesn’t change the calculus to wide swathes of people.
Exhaustion would only set in if he was able to beat the charges. There may be a strategy because nobody wanted to go first, in case they weren't able to make the case stick and then he would use that to get all other cases thrown out.
You have to be pretty delusional to support Trump, even if you agree with some or all of his policies. If they didn't shy away from him after the Miss Teen USA allegations, they are ride or die.
The difference between becoming president and not being president has been quite small. I'm not sure what the best outcome is, preventing him from becoming the republican candidate or preventing him winning the election.
What, exactly? What nonsensical, self-defeating point are you making this time?
I applaud your desire to engage but honestly, with people like the guy in question, it's a wasted effort because actors in bad faith will always act in bad faith. He specifically has been doing it for a while now, and the ones on ignore list are deranged right-wingers who proudly claim they'd beat up gay classmates or upset at the idea of a brown PM.
I don't argue with people who act in bad faith. I either ignore or block them. To me, @Foxi4, @Hanafuda and others are neither. But I'm not here to push my version of the truth and they're not trolling. What I want are different perspectives and see how they hold up. I respect them, even if i disagree.
That said... Can you please hold your tongue on the personal issues? I tend to agree with you more on the political basis, but i'd personally prefer someone who i can civilly disagree with than having your personal attack against someone who is not in 'my camp'.
Exhaustion would only set in if he was able to beat the charges. There may be a strategy because nobody wanted to go first, in case they weren't able to make the case stick and then he would use that to get all other cases thrown out.
You have to be pretty delusional to support Trump, even if you agree with some or all of his policies. If they didn't shy away from him after the Miss Teen USA allegations, they are ride or die.
The difference between becoming president and not being president has been quite small. I'm not sure what the best outcome is, preventing him from becoming the republican candidate or preventing him winning the election.
I don’t know if I can agree with that. The 24 hour news cycle is exhausting in and out of itself, hearing the exact same name in the exact same context over and over again ceases to be damaging and starts working as advertising at a point. We’ll chalk it up to a difference in perspective though.
This doesn’t concern you.I didn’t say that it invalidates it, I question who planned it and whether or not it can be considered a conspiracy, particularly if it wasn’t acted upon.
I've wondered about that for a bit myself. Trump simply isn't smart enough to cook up that scheme with Pence ('we' ll just tell we're not counting the states we deem too close, and then let republican controlled senate rule in our favor'), and I don't deem his intelligence better in this case.
But take election night. As the night went on, everyone in Trump's circle conceded... Except for Giuliani (who was drunk at that time). You can't really blame Rudy for shenanigans when it's Trump choosing to follow his advice over... Well... Everyone else in the room at that time.
I admit i don't think it was a conspiracy in the early days after the election. Going by, among others, the book' peril', Trump first indicated that he lost. Not admitting it (this is Trump, after all) but accepting. Thing is: his advisors were divided, one fraction pushing for... Well... The things in this case whereas others called those crazies. Trump, however, just went along with them. And as the president, you can't really deny wrongdoings when they only do it to appease you.
Finally: the 'wasn't acted upon' i downright disagree with. It wasn't successful, at least partially because not everyone went along with the schemes (Pence being 'too honest'). But this case alone has plenty of stuff that was acted upon.
We are both privy to the contents of the phone call - I don’t see any direct orders in there. Misguided concerns, maybe, but I would not describe them as malicious when I account for the circumstances. Glad to see some agreement on things that are demonstrably true and obvious, regardless of whether we arrived at the correct conclusion along the same or a different train of thought. As for the “long sentence”, hey - that’s why I used brackets, to insert an important, but unrelated aside concerning an earlier argument in this thread.
@Dark_Ansem posted some fragments (EDIT: forgot to add: as well as the whole conversation). I do read those as malicious, and frankly: i'd say the context makes that more likely, imho. I concede that it CAN be read as suggestions if you really want it, but that's just wishful thinking.
What I also read between the lines is "you're my fall guy for this one". Trump pretty much always speaks this sort of ambiguous way. I'm sure his lawyers spin that as if "well, my client merely suggested a crime... That's not illegal", but to me it's pretty much a direct order.
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