The situation in Ukraine...

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

They never claimed there was any Western military presence in Ukraine as their reason for invasion.


No, NATO membership implies protection against invasion, which Russia was opposed to because they wanted to invade, as clearly demonstrated by their actions. It wasn't even under consideration at the time Russia invaded.

Now you are playing dumb.
NATO membership implies US troops in Ukraine, not the other way around. There are no Latvian, Polish, German or French troops in the US. It is a one-way street and you know it.

The whole conflict was about NATO membership. One of the demands prior to the war was a written promise to exclude NATO membership. The US said they could not give such a promise (while telling Zelensky secretely that Ukraine cannot become a member - see video evidence of his speaking about it).

You are either in denial or trying to mislead others.

I'm not going to answer pointless hypotheticals. There are Russians who believe the Kremlin's propaganda, and there are Russians who see right through it. Nearly all of them will suffer as a result of Putin's actions, and they shouldn't have to.

It is not pointless. I have exposed your Disney world view and you are not man enough to say out loud the implications of your thinking. Putin is evil for holding certain beliefs about Ukraine. So do about 100mio Russians (if not more). I gave you an "if" clause and you are still not willing to answer.
You are again perpetuating the myth of victimhood. Russians are not victims, you fucking racist. They know more about the West than the Westerners do about Russia. Shove your savior complex up yours. Westerners have not changed one bit. Instead of Jesus, "democracy" is now doing the saving.

 

[Xzi]

Now you are playing dumb.

No, you're playing apologist to fascism. NATO is a protective alliance, it only makes a move when one of its members is threatened. Russia hated the idea of Ukraine joining NATO because it was in the process of threatening Ukraine. 2+2=4.

The whole conflict was about NATO membership. One of the demands prior to the war was a written promise to exclude NATO membership. The US said they could not give such a promise (while telling Zelensky secretely that Ukraine cannot become a member - see video evidence of his speaking about it).

You are either in denial or trying to mislead others.

NATO membership had not been on the table for several months prior to Russia's invasion. It was an excuse of convenience and nothing more, the Kremlin lies easier than they breathe.

You are again perpetuating the myth of victimhood. Russians are not victims, you fucking racist.

What a dumb fucking accusation. I stand in solidarity with the working class of Russia, even those blind to the truth about Putin. I don't blame them for his actions. How in your mind does that equate to racism?

They know more about the West than the Westerners do about Russia. Shove your savior complex up yours. Westerners have not changed one bit. Instead of Jesus, "democracy" is now doing the saving.

I'm not telling Russia which direction they have to take the country in post-Putin. Transitioning to any sort of free society after living through dictatorship will be hard. I wish them the best of luck. What will not help them is cheerleading for a boomer dead set on restoring the "glory days" of the USSR, even if that requires genocide against their own brothers and endless war crimes. You're trying to keep the entire region stuck in kleptocracy perpetually.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Your supremacist thinking is dripping wet. It is as pointless as talking to a Jehova´s witness. If you accuse them of blind faith, you get blind faith answers. I accused you of supremacism and I get sentences like "transitioning to any sort of free society after living through dictatorship will be hard". Unreal.

 

[Xzi]

Your supremacist thinking is dripping wet. It is as pointless as talking to a Jehova´s witness. If you accuse them of blind faith, you get blind faith answers. I accused you of supremacism and I get sentences like "transitioning to any sort of free society after living through dictatorship will be hard". Unreal.

I don't think you're actually in denial that Russia is a dictatorship. You're just out of ways to argue in favor of imperialism. I get that China would love to have an immortal Putin around forever so that they can parade him around like a sock puppet, but that's not the reality of the situation. If he had a lot left to lose, he wouldn't have made a nigh-suicidal move like invading Ukraine to begin with.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I don't think you're actually in denial that Russia is a dictatorship.

I don´t make judgement about other nations and their way of living. I´m not a biggot, nor do I have ideological views I want to impose on others.
Russians could criticize a lot about the US (the high taxes, money dominating politics, crime, etc) but they don´t have a religious fervor about it.
Imagine if Russia tried to topple the US government in order save American homeless people. The same feeling you get ("let them mind their own damn business") this instance is what other nations feel when it is reversed.

 

[KuntilanakMerah]

lol america used double standard when attacking iraq, syria, middle eastern country they said iraq develop nuclear but in the end they didn't find it they just robbing other country oil and gas using a propaganda, the dictator is the USA not Russia, Russia just protected their homeland against NATO expansion

 

[Xzi]

I don´t make judgement about other nations and their way of living. I´m not a biggot, nor do I have ideological views I want to impose on others.

If you're willing to tolerate/ignore fascism and/or imperialism, then you might not be a bigot but you sure aren't a good person.

Russians could criticize a lot about the US (the high taxes, money dominating politics, crime, etc) but they don´t have a religious fervor about it.
Imagine if Russia tried to topple the US government in order save American homeless people. The same feeling you get ("let them mind their own damn business") this instance is what other nations feel when it is reversed.

More whataboutism and pointless hypotheticals. I have no issue with Russians who criticize the US government, but if they've been brainwashed into believing every US citizen is their enemy, that's a different matter.

lol america used double standard when attacking iraq, syria, middle eastern country they said iraq develop nuclear but in the end they didn't find it they just robbing other country oil and gas using a propaganda, the dictator is the USA not Russia, Russia just protected their homeland against NATO expansion

"Protecting their homeland" would mean some other country invaded Russia first. That isn't what happened and you know it. Putin was and remains the sole aggressor in this scenario.

Oh, and to the shock of nobody, Putin recently admitted that the war is all about expanding Russian territory, undermining his previous rationale for the invasion. Had absolutely nothing to do with NATO, the plan was always to invade.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

If you're willing to tolerate/ignore fascism and/or imperialism, then you might not be a bigot but you sure aren't a good person.

Once again you are confirming that you are post-Christian religious fanatic. You think of yourself as a good person while Russians are evil or brainwashed and need your saving.

More whataboutism and pointless hypotheticals. I have no issue with Russians who criticize the US government, but if they've been brainwashed into believing every US citizen is their enemy, that's a different matter.

Whataboutism is only an argument for people who are unable to empathize. I know your religious beliefs prevent you from doing so, but try seeing the world from the perspective of other nations. Americans (at least the elites) feel threatened by one possible Chinese military station in the Solomon islands. But America has hundreds, many of them surrounding China. This is imperialism. Just because Latvia does not appear on your world map in the same color as the US, does not mean it is not part of the US empire. There are no Latvian soliders in America. It is ALWAYS the other way around. The empire sends its troops.
If you want to know how Russians feel, imagine they want to topple your government in order to save your people. You already know part of the feeling, see the Russia-Trump hysteria which turned out to be a nothing burger. Now amplify this feeling times a thousand.

 

[Xzi]

Once again you are confirming that you are post-Christian religious fanatic. You think of yourself as a good person while Russians are evil or brainwashed and need your saving.

Putin is evil. Putin is not Russia. Just as Joe Biden and/or Donald Trump are not America. You already know this to be the case, so stop being disingenuous.

Whataboutism is only an argument for people who are unable to empathize.

So you're telling on yourself? I've stuck to the subject at hand while you constantly refer back to things the US has done in the past, despite the fact that nobody has made the claim that the US was in the right. Imperialism is fucked no matter who's engaging in it. Period.

I know your religious beliefs prevent you from doing so, but try seeing the world from the perspective of other nations.

I'm agnostic.

If you want to know how Russians feel, imagine they want to topple your government in order to save your people.

That'd be great. We haven't had a properly functioning democracy in eons and Americans are too apathetic to change things from within.

You already know part of the feeling, see the Russia-Trump hysteria which turned out to be a nothing burger. Now amplify this feeling times a thousand.

Trump wants to be dictator just like Putin and takes all his cues from Putin, yes. That wouldn't be the same as "toppling" our government, it would only be handing full control of it to a sociopathic out-of-touch oligarch. I never suggested the US should install their own puppet leader in Russia, the Russian people must decide how to move forward on their own once Putin is gone. He has nobody but himself to blame for the corner he's backed himself into, though I'm sure you'll keep trying to point the finger anywhere else regardless.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Putin is evil. Putin is not Russia. Just as Joe Biden and/or Donald Trump are not America. You already know this to be the case, so stop being disingenuous.

Putin is much more Russia than Biden is America. Speaking of democracy...

So you're telling on yourself? I've stuck to the subject at hand while you constantly refer back to things the US has done in the past, despite the fact that nobody has made the claim that the US was in the right. Imperialism is fucked no matter who's engaging in it. Period.

Making comparisons and exposing double standards are part of a debate. If one does not have an argument against it, one refers to "whataboutism" as if giving it a name makes it go away. It doesn´t.

I'm agnostic.

You speak like a religious fanatic using terms like good and evil and judging nations by your standards. No different from Christian colonialists back in the day.

That'd be great. We haven't had a properly functioning democracy in eons and Americans are too apathetic to change things from within.

Dishonest. You don´t believe that. Weren´t you also supporting the "Trump is a Putin puppet" claim? I´d hate to look into your history. Just tell me yes or no.

I never suggested the US should install their own puppet leader in Russia, the Russian people must decide how to move forward on their own once Putin is gone.

What if they continue to want Putin as their leader? Do they first have to ask you? Unless he is ill, he could stay for another decade. He is 10 years younger than Biden.
What if the next person is just as hardline regarding NATO? Must the Russian people decide or you?

 

[Xzi]

Putin is much more Russia than Biden is America.

Who's being racist now? Russians on average are not scum-sucking leeches on society like Putin is.

Making comparisons and exposing double standards are part of a debate. If one does not have an argument against it, one refers to "whataboutism" as if giving it a name makes it go away. It doesn´t.

Or I just call out your whataboutism whenever you try to leverage it as if it's making any actual point. "wHaT aBoUt IrAQ?" What about Tienanmen Square? What about the quadratic formula? Has fuck all to do with the topic at hand.

You speak like a religious fanatic using terms like good and evil and judging nations by your standards. No different from Christian colonialists back in the day.

I'm not talking about the Christian idea of "evil," I'm talking about objective evil. As in someone who actively brings pain and suffering not only to innocents in other countries on a daily basis, but also to the innocents in their own country.

Dishonest. You don´t believe that. Weren´t you also supporting the "Trump is a Putin puppet" claim? I´d hate to look into your history. Just tell me yes or no.

Again, overthrowing the government would not mean handing the reigns to Trump. It would mean tossing out both our current crony capitalism and our broken two-party system that brought us Trump in the first place.

What if they continue to want Putin as their leader?

Then let him hold a legitimate election so we can find out. He'd rather die first, which is exactly what he'll do, because he's very ill with cancer.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

He has been re-elected time and again. His popularity decreased during the retirement reforms but he has always been popular. I don´t care if you believe me. It is pointless talking to a brick wall. Travel the world as your missionaries once did. Perhaps it will open your eyes.
I will let the Russians know that you volunteer as an election observer. They surely appreciate it. Please ask Biden wether he will allow Russian observers and perhaps investigators regarding 2020.

 

[Lacius]

He has been re-elected time and again.

You know they aren't free and fair elections, right? Right?

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

You know they aren't free and fair elections, right? Right?

Says your media. Their media might say yours aren´t. I´m not an election observer. Are you?
Many states in the US explicitly do not allow foreign observers. About half of the US thinks that the 2020 elections were not fair.

 

[pustal]

Western ignorance at its best: Let´s personify the problem. Once the person is gone, everything will be alright. Works so great in Western democracies, doesn´t it?

Putin is one of the calmest and predictable politicians on the international stage. The invasion was threatened and announced by the troops at the border. The US kept pushing instead (sending weapons, holding exercises, encouraging the regime to take back the Donbass). Here we are. He is perhaps bold (I also did not expect an actuall invasion) but certainly not unpredictable.

If you want to believe that Russians are a people who need saving because they are held captive by an evil dictator, go ahead. The dumb fuck well. In Russia, well fucks the dumb.

I'll give you preditability, but calmness? LOL He rushed an invasion that he wasn't prepared at all.

As for puting this on US or NATO, take it form an actual expert on the matter:

 

[JoeBloggs777]

He has been re-elected time and again. His popularity decreased during the retirement reforms but he has always been popular.

I suppose when you control your media, you will always be popular , you know only report the good news

does Putin mention media freedom in Russia? . probably not, with a ranking of 155 out of 180 countries in the Press Freedom Index by 'Reporters without Borders' I would not believe one word from your media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I suppose when you control your media, you will always be popular , you know only report the good news

does Putin mention media freedom in Russia? . probably not, with a ranking of 155 out of 180 countries in the Press Freedom Index by 'Reporters without Borders' I would not believe one word from your media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia

Russian media is not my media. The media I consume is mostly Western.
Western media is often only free by name. E.g. in Germany most media belongs to a few (oligopoly) which share the same views. In addition, the official media (which should be neutral according to its own laws but is not) shares the same views as the state. Only alternative media like those found on Telegram are truly free. That´s why it is being targeted.

Control of the media does not necessitate popularity. In the Soviet Union, people knew about media bias. Their leaders were often not popular.

 

[JoeBloggs777]

and as for sanctions not working, what will it be like in a few months..

‘The return of banditry’: Russian car industry buckles under sanctions​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-russian-car-industry-buckles-under-sanctions

 

[Xzi]

Travel the world as your missionaries once did. Perhaps it will open your eyes.

Even if I had the funds to jet set around the world for the rest of my life, it wouldn't change my views on Putin or imperialism. Besides, playing apologist for a soulless dictator does not make you "worldly," it just makes you look like a hypocrite and a fool. Thieving oligarchs are not your friends and never will be.

 

[Deleted member 194275]

I suppose when you control your media, you will always be popular , you know only report the good news

does Putin mention media freedom in Russia? . probably not, with a ranking of 155 out of 180 countries in the Press Freedom Index by 'Reporters without Borders' I would not believe one word from your media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia

I respect wikipedia, and I agree that Russia has no press freedom (like the map shows), but this map is bullshit.