Signs Of Doomsday Day!!!

[Magmorph]

EDIT: And I love your habit of ignoring points that don't have a pre-made answer on extremest websites.

Which point did I ignore.......the Christian Worship one???
If you call these websites "Extremest" than according to your definition every site is extremest.

You have been ignoring a great deal of points throughout the entire discussion. The vast majority of the points you do respond to are just copied and pasted from other websites.

 

[bsfmtl123]

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You find me something in the Torah that has being corrupted without referring to the Koran. Find an older copy of the work and show the inconsistencies with the modern ones. The dead sea scrolls are the oldest known copies, start there and point out the differences.

And I corrected myself in the second edit. I don't get how God is better than us in every way but can not make analogies or metaphors. Can God not get his head around the concepts?

Okay! I will search through and then provide you with evidences.


QUOTEYou have been ignoring a great deal of points throughout the entire discussion. The vast majority of the points you do respond to are just copied and pasted from other websites.

Dear,
First of all English is not my native language so writing it in great lengths is difficult for me and secondly I agree with your point that I very much post links to other websites this is because there are many things with which I am not familiar such as Embryology.So to escape any mistake from my side I try to search for it on the net,read it out and then post it accordingly.
Please do tell me which points did I ignore except for the Christian Worship one.

And from now on wards I'll try to use links as less as possible and post my own original work.

 

[TrolleyDave]

I had an incredibly busy week last week so didn't get alot of time to go online. I'll answer everything later tonight. Gonna have a lazy afternoon of catching up first!

 

[bsfmtl123]

I had an incredibly busy week last week so didn't get alot of time to go online. I'll answer everything later tonight. Gonna have a lazy afternoon of catching up first!

No problem! Take as much time you need

 

[Jakob95]

I'm saying it has not being corrupted over time

Torah or the Bible both are corrupt.I don't care what you believe.And if you really want to debate over it than prove yourself because just mentioning the Dead Scrolls isn't going to help

QUOTEEDIT: And I love your habit of ignoring points that don't have a pre-made answer on extremest websites.

Which point did I ignore.......the Christian Worship one???
If you call these websites "Extremest" than according to your definition every site is extremest.

How is the Torah corrupt it has never been changed throughout history. While the Bible has been changed many times... And in my opinion the quran is corrupt.

 

[bsfmtl123]

How is the Torah corrupt it has never been changed throughout history. While the Bible has been changed many times... And in my opinion the quran is corrupt.

It is your opinion.....think whatever you want to think.

And I didn't meant to say that the whole Torah is corrupt some of it may be right.
Let me use a more appropriate word "Unreliable"
For Example : If you are using a science book made in the 1980s today in your school that would be so unreliable......Just as the same take the Quran(the latest Book) and the Torah(outdated) into consideration.

Spoiler

The Qur'an teaches that Islam is the continued faithful religion in the same line as the Prophets who were before Muhammad: The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA).
The result of this view is that the scriptures given by these Prophets are considered to be genuine scriptures from God:
But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).

 

[stinkoman]

Guys, I'd like to intervene by saying all of it's equally messed up.
Bible contradictions.
Quran contradictions.
I'd even post a list containing contradictions in the Origin of Species if there was one that listed it contradicting anything other than religious works.
How is this thread still alive?

 

[Jakob95]

How is the Torah corrupt it has never been changed throughout history. While the Bible has been changed many times... And in my opinion the quran is corrupt.

It is your opinion.....think whatever you want to think.

And I didn't meant to say that the whole Torah is corrupt some of it may be right.
Let me use a more appropriate word "Unreliable"
For Example : If you are using a science book made in the 1980s today in your school that would be so unreliable......Just as the same take the Quran(the latest Book) and the Torah(outdated) into consideration.

Spoiler

The Qur'an teaches that Islam is the continued faithful religion in the same line as the Prophets who were before Muhammad: The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA).
The result of this view is that the scriptures given by these Prophets are considered to be genuine scriptures from God:
But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).

Lol how can you even compare that to a 1980 science book. The Torah was written by god and he didn't make any mistAkes, while the person who wrote that science book could have written something that wasn't discovered during his time. so lets say today I wrote my own holy book does that now make the quran outdated for you?

 

[stinkoman]

The Torah was written by god and he didn't make any mistAkes, while the person who wrote that science book could have written something that wasn't discovered during his time.
I just want to emphasize this.

QUOTE(Jakob95 @ Jul 19 2011, 01:38 PM) so lets say today I wrote my own holy book does that now make the quran outdated for you?

Nope. The difference between religious texts and scientific texts (other than the obvious bits, like validity) in this case is that one of them is consistent (according to religion) and the other is constantly adapting and changing to fit what's observed lately. In any case, this argument's literally not going anywhere as you're both going to believe that you're correct no matter what anyone says

 

[bsfmtl123]

Quran contradictions.

There are no contradictions within the Quran actually there are contradictions in this website.........plain ignorance.

Okay lets take a sample from this above given link:

This verse was compared:
"And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense."

With This one:
Strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin.

To prove a contradiction within Quran.......does anyone know the context of these two verses?


QUOTELol how can you even compare that to a 1980 science book. The Torah was written by god and he didn't make any mistAkes, while the person who wrote that science book could have written something that wasn't discovered during his time. so lets say today I wrote my own holy book does that now make the quran outdated for you?

Jakob your not getting my point........Yes, i agree He didn't made any mistakes but He also didn't deliver this Book as His final and Complete Word.
The time Torah was revealed people were different ,their livings,routines,earnings and beliefs all were totally different they could not understand or didn't have the ability to understand some things which are in the Quran that is why when people had evolved to the requirement Quran then was revealed.

Let me ask you a question....does the Torah say that it is the Book to mankind till Eternity.

 

[stinkoman]

Quran contradictions.

There are no contradictions within the Quran actually there are contradictions in this website.........plain ignorance.

How are they wrong, then?

 

[Pyrmon]

Quran contradictions.

There are no contradictions within the Quran actually there are contradictions in this website.........plain ignorance.

How are they wrong, then?

Do you want me to refute every one of the 32 claims? Because I will. Don't expect it today though.

 

[Magmorph]

And I didn't meant to say that the whole Torah is corrupt some of it may be right.
Let me use a more appropriate word "Unreliable"
For Example : If you are using a science book made in the 1980s today in your school that would be so unreliable......Just as the same take the Quran(the latest Book) and the Torah(outdated) into consideration.

The Book of Mormon is much newer than the Quran. Does that make the Quran outdated?

 

[Jakob95]

And I didn't meant to say that the whole Torah is corrupt some of it may be right.
Let me use a more appropriate word "Unreliable"
For Example : If you are using a science book made in the 1980s today in your school that would be so unreliable......Just as the same take the Quran(the latest Book) and the Torah(outdated) into consideration.

The Book of Mormon is much newer than the Quran. Does that make the Quran outdated?

Exactly who tells me that the quran is even real in the first place you might believe its real others don't.

 

[_Chaz_]

Anyone who thinks they can predict the future, let alone the end of the world, is a moron and should be banned from voicing their thoughts.

 

[bsfmtl123]

The Book of Mormon is much newer than the Quran. Does that make the Quran outdated?

No! because Quran states that it is the Book to Mankind till Eternity and there will be no new Prophet or no new faith.
And the Book of Mormon has no relevance to Quran......so try a bit to use your common sense rather then just making false statements.


QUOTEExactly who tells me that the quran is even real in the first place you might believe its real others don't.

Who thinks that the Torah and Bible are real........and who tells that the Quran is not real??? Atheists,Christians or Jews??

 

[Magmorph]

The Book of Mormon is much newer than the Quran. Does that make the Quran outdated?

No! because Quran states that it is the Book to Mankind till Eternity and there will be no new Prophet or no new faith.
And the Book of Mormon has no relevance to Quran......so try a bit to use your common sense rather then just making false statements.

You are trying to argue that the Quran makes the Torah outdated because it is newer. The Book of Mormon does have relevance to the Torah and it is much newer than the Quran.

QUOTE

Quran contradictions.

There are no contradictions within the Quran actually there are contradictions in this website.........plain ignorance.

How are they wrong, then?

Do you want me to refute every one of the 32 claims? Because I will. Don't expect it today though.

The Quran uses abrogation, which is an easy way of dismissing any contradictions.

 

[bsfmtl123]

You are trying to argue that the Quran makes the Torah outdated because it is newer. The Book of Mormon does have relevance to the Torah and it is much newer than the Quran.

This is because Quran states that there won't be any further books from Allah.

 

[cwstjdenobs]

And I didn't meant to say that the whole Torah is corrupt some of it may be right.
Let me use a more appropriate word "Unreliable"
For Example : If you are using a science book made in the 1980s today in your school that would be so unreliable......Just as the same take the Quran(the latest Book) and the Torah(outdated) into consideration.

So are you saying your definition of corrupted is "not exactly the same as a derivative work", and not "not as it was originally written"? And what difference does something being outdated make in this argument? By that logic I could easily argue that if the Bible got outdated in 600 years then the whole lot of those bronze age works are by now, in the modern era, outdated and irrelevant.

 

[Pyrmon]

Quran contradictions.

Spoiler

1: Word for verse is Ayah. Ayah means a revelation. Can be a verse or a whole scripture. The verse suggesting abrogation is talking about replacing old scriptures with new ones. I.E. the Torah with the Bible.
2: I really don't see how one could understand that as “it's OK to drink alcohol”.
3: Referring to two different events. Marry was visited by angels long before she was to give birth to Jesus.
4: The people go astray. God doesn't make them. But God doesn't help those who, in full knowledge, reject Him. An if you read the verses carefully, you notice only one speaks of leading people astray and it is mistranslated. Correct translation is “allows to go astray”.
5: God is omnipotent. But he does not produce children. It's an absurdity. The “How can He?” really means "Why in the world would god have a son?".
6: The word "day" in Arabic also means "period". And if you read the full verse, it says it takes angels a period of 50,000 years to reach God.
7: God made the "devils" as protecting friends, but disbelievers choose to take them as friends. And to disbelieve.
8: Saying the Pharaoh's body was preserved does not mean his soul or his life was saved. The verse actually refers to the Pharao's mummification.
9: Belief in God means belief in a single, true God. Not the trinity. Some Christians do not believe Jesus is God, thus some Christians won't go to hell. As for Jews, to my knowledge, don't put any prophet as the equal of God and, thus, have a good chance of being saved. They also share many values, principles, guidelines and history.
10: Muhammad does not ask money for himself. He asks the followers to spend money in the cause of God. Meaning Charity and such. Any money Muhammad received, he gave away. That is why he only possessed two coins when he died.
11: Muslims are only allowed to fight as a way to defend themselves. We can't hurt another soul, be it a Jew, Christian, Mormon, Buddhist or whatever, unless the other party committed acts of aggression towards us. 9:29 therefore refers to wartime.
12: All that is in the Earth as in what the Earth is made of. Matter. Also, the word translated as “then”, tumma, can also mean “moreover” and “also”.
13: God does not forgive people who die in a state of sin. He does, however, forgive anyone who repents for any sin. You know, before being dead, and knowing for certain God exists and knowing you fucked up.
14: These passages don't narrate the same time. One is before the battle, the other is after. We are led to conclude that 1000 angels were sent at first and that more joined them during the battle.
15: You are free to follow the law, but if you don't, there are consequences. And the last thee groups of verses are either taken out of context or mistranslated. Most refer to wartime, while in some the word translated as friend should be translated as ally.
16: The Earth was made in two days and it's provisions calculated in four. The calculations were made within a time period of four days during which the Earth was also created. Then the completion of the Heaven took another two days. I know it is hard to see in a translation, but the original Arabic is slightly clearer. Ahmed Raza Khan's translation makes it easier to see, but you need to read verse nine and ten together, not separately. I'm not sure I'm explaining it right.
17: In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her separately. If you apply that to the verses, it becomes clear.
18: The people go astray. God doesn't make them. But God doesn't help those who, in full knowledge, reject Him. An if you read the verses carefully, you notice only one speaks of leading people astray and it is mistranslated. Correct translation is “allows to go astray”.
19: Oh boy... This isn't a contradiction. It's in fact in complete accordance to science. We and all other known life-forms are made for a big part of water. The parts about dust, dirt, clay, mud and such are a reference to the fact we are made from earthly materials, such as metals. The drop of fluid and cloth refer to the conception of humans. The drop is sperm and the cloth is our appearance in the womb at an early stage. The nothing part has two possible answers. There is that God made matter, from which we are obviously made, out of nothing and that matter is mostly empty. If you grew an atom to be the size of a stadium, the nucleus would be a grain of sand in the middle and the electrons would be dust floating around it. These verses acknowledge that we aren't made from a single material, but from several.
20: God can forgive any sin if one seeks forgiveness. That is why He is merciful. But one who does not seek forgiveness won't get help. One can have mercy and be sever at the same time.
21: The only thing these verses say is that God is allowed to make distinction between the messengers but not the believers.
22: The verses do not say that Iblis doesn't mislead Muslims. The verses say that only few do not get effected by Iblis. The scholars say that among the few are prophets & messengers of God and people of high status of faith.
23: Each prophet is the first from among his people. He is the one leading them to Islam. To be exact, Adam was the first Muslim.
24: The son who remained was a wicked person and, thus, wasn't considered a part of Noah's household. You see that when you read the following verses.
25: Everything is obedient to God to some extent. Even an unbeliever is obedient to God's law in some way. For example, God made food for us to eat. By eating it, you are following the natural law of God. Even if you don't believe in God, you will eat. Iblis may have been an unbeliever, he follows the natural law of God.
26: I f you take both set of verses together, this is the order in which the events happened. Moses leaves his people to go on the mountain. The people make a statue of a calf to worship while he is gone. Aaron warns them and they respond they will stay devoted to the calf until the return of Moses. Later, they realize how stupid they were. Then Moses returns. I always though it was pretty obvious.
27: The second set of verses are actually translated as “we do not send the angels except for a purpose” or “except with Truth”, Truth being a message or revelation, which also shows the same meaning.
28: If you read different (and arguably clearer) translations(and the whole verses), you see this first two verses talk about God taking away the light from the fire, leaving the person unable to see. And both verse refer to two different parables.
29: Ordering punishment for murder whoever the murderer and the murdered are is hardly promoting slavery.
30: The verse does not say God can't have a son. Re-read the whole verse.
31: I already talked about this one in my previous replies. Short story is that the two verses don't contradict, but rather complement.
32: The verses prior to 10:83 re-count the same event as in 7:120 but does not mention the ending of the narrative and instead jumps to the general response of the population to Moses' preaching in Egypt. The 120th verse of the 7th surah shows the ending of that particular story.

Damn, that was long to write on my iPhone.