Hardware Scanlines on N3DS XL

[nervx]

The lines you keep referring to do they look like this by any chance?

 

[The Real Jdbye]

I've experienced that effect on my GBA and DS, it seems to be more visible in bright light and it quickly goes away when I'm not thinking about it, so it's never bothered me, I just find it odd. Also, it was always on the bottom screen, never on the top.
Don't think I have experienced it on any 3DS though, at least not that I can remember.

 

[n3dsxltemp]

More video out in the wild:

 

[nervx]

I was playing nsmb on my dslite and I think I can kinda see what the OP is talking about on some of the solid chuncks of sky background. It looks like some rows of pixels become a bit dimmer when you move across the screen at certain speeds. When you stop it looks normal again. Pretty sure I've noticed the effect before but its faint enough not to be distracting. not really something most people would notice unless you go out of your way to fixate on it.

I did notice a variation too. I noticed it's extremely noticeable right after you open the console from sleep mode. It will be like this for a minute or two. It will get a little bit better, but will still be there, though. The top screen definitely isn't getting the correct voltage.

Here is a video of the issue:

is the issue even visible in this video? I can see a moire like effect but that's typical of recording or taking pictures of any lcd screen. I don't see any line flicker though.

More video out in the wild:

this video was concern over the banding on the bottom of the screen. turned out to be a non issue and just how the game looks.

 

[Kohmei]

I was playing nsmb on my dslite and I think I can kinda see what the OP is talking about on some of the solid chuncks of sky background. It looks like some rows of pixels become a bit dimmer when you move across the screen at certain speeds. When you stop it looks normal again. Pretty sure I've noticed the effect before but its faint enough not to be distracting. not really something most people would notice unless you go out of your way to fixate on it.

I first noticed the problem with the DSlite. The N3DS can be quite a bit worse, or not noticeable at all, depending on what game you play. MM3D, for instance, is nearly entirely unnoticeable except for select scenes. ALBW, on the other hand, it's almost constantly present, a real eye-sore. I can see just coming to accept and ignore it but it's not like it will ever just go away. I recommend the TN panel type for people like me

I don't notice it in the videos either. It's hard to tell what's just an artifact of the video recording. I think even the TN panel would have the moire effect, even though it doesn't suffer from the multiplexing issue at all.

 

[Hammyface]

OK, I can now totally confirm the OP is 100% correct.

I've purchased 10 new3DS XL consoles, and I managed to find 2 with TN panels. However, and some might find this strange, but I absolutely choose the TN over IPS.

The TN panels on the new3DS XL do not have the scanline/multiplexing issue the IPS screens have.

I am not sure WHY the IPS screens have the issue (they all have it; it's just whether or not you see it. If you don't notice it, DON'T LOOK FOR IT! IT WILL TORTURE YOU!). My guess? The multiplexing issue comes from the voltage that the screen uses being calibrated improperly. In the days of the GBA and DS and DSi, this was adjustable via potentiometer. On the 3DS (and New3DS XL), these potentiometers are no longer there. So the new3DS XL probably has a fixed value of what the voltage should be. Except Nintendo didn't bother to adjust it for the systems with differing screens. Again, poor quality control or QA from Nintendo which is common with them and their handheld screens.

So in short, Nintendo is using two different types of displays for the new3DS XL, and they didn't bother adjusting the values for certain internal components between the two screen types. Because of this, I much prefer the TN panel.

If the IPS screen did not have the rolling horizontal pinstripe line issue (aka multiplexing), I would prefer the IPS a bit. The IPS has really nice colors, as I am a huge plasma fanatic. However, I also like fast response time and being able to see everything (the TN is brighter).

Aside from the better viewing angle (which I don't care about on a handheld so close to my face), and slightly better colors (at the cost of it being a little too dark in some scenes), I actually prefer the TN panel way more (mostly because of the voltage/potentiometer issue), and I am extremely happy I managed to find a new3DS XL with one in them.

 

[nervx]

I was able to test two ips, and one tn against my original xl today. Heres the deal.

-ips crushes blacks a bit but has more contrast.
-viewing angles suck on the tn
-touch screen on all 3 n3dsxls looked dimmer and more washed out than the OG.
-one ips had very noticeable scan-line flicker on the bottom of the screen and oddly the same effect but vertically on the left side of the screen.
-the other ips had the scan-line thing but only noticeable in the bottom left and very faint. never really noticed when playing a game.
-the new tn screen also had the scan-line thing but you have to look very carefully to ever notice it. I cant see it on my OG xl at all.
-the new tn displays motion much poorer than the ips and slightly worse than the OG xl. to test this I used music park in Mario kart 7. when you go around the sharp turns the thin space between keys looks super jaggy on the ips. on the tn they smoothen out but if you pause and youll notice its just like the ips.

one ips had 3 dead pixels. the other ips had a small scratch dead center of the screen wtf! all three are being returned.

 

[fatsquirrel]

According to the NeoGAF thread posted above, the issue is that Nintendo is using both IPS and TN type panels. Type A is IPS and type B is TN. Apparently the working theory is that only the XL comes with IPS, so if you think you have an IPS in your normal sized N3DS, this would mean there is a panel lottery for both sizes.

Nintendo definitely outsources panel production. Very few parts in Nintendo's hardware is actually made by Nintendo. Nintendo just puts all the pieces together.

Edit: Seems Sharp has made the upper panels for Nintendo up until now. They might have changed manufacturers, or simply changed spec

Sharp has been manufacturing both upper and lower panels for 3ds. Upper panel for old 3ds xl was made by toshiba if im not mistaken.
The new3ds xl lower screen is Sharp and the upper screen is JDI (Japan display) - Im assuming its Toshiba as it is also a provider for WiiUs gamepad display.

Im happy as long as I have a quality japanese and not a shit korean screen.

 

[Hammyface]

The TN panel might have a crummy viewing angle but the darker scenes are way easier to see, and most importantly, no scanlines!

 

[Kohmei]

The TN panel might have a crummy viewing angle but the darker scenes are way easier to see, and most importantly, no scanlines!

I'm glad the TN panels at least found 2 good homes. I've seen a lot of people disappointed that they got one, probably people who never would have realized the difference if I never pointed it out They're good panels, I think someone would be happy with either, TN being the better choice if you can see multiplexing.

 

[Hammyface]

I'm glad the TN panels at least found 2 good homes. I've seen a lot of people disappointed that they got one, probably people who never would have realized the difference if I never pointed it out They're good panels, I think someone would be happy with either, TN being the better choice if you can see multiplexing.

The ultimate would be the IPS screen with it having the proper voltage adjusted so there's no multiplexing. Since you and I both determined there's no potentiometer, I wonder if there's another way to adjust it?

 

[Captain Charisma]

I've got a TN N3DSXL black 9.0 and an IPS N3DSXL black 9.4 unfortunately. The difference is clear, I much prefer the IPS. The colours are much more vibrant and not so washed, but the main thing is blur I've noticed, texts are much more clear to read and just generally clearer.


The best way to check the blur is to select the miiverse with the dpad but don't press A and u can see the blur on TN screen as the kegs are not clear, whereas on the IPS the leg outline are clearly outline and sharper...therefore making it easy on the eyes and feels much superior.

Now I'm doomed, I already put my hori screen protectors on the TN 9.0 DS, but looking at how hard it is to get IPS, I don't know which one to keep!

 

[Hammyface]

Now I'm doomed, I already put my hori screen protectors on the TN 9.0 DS, but looking at how hard it is to get IPS, I don't know which one to keep!

It shouldn't be hard to get an IPS (maybe it's different in the UK?). From the 10 I bought here in the US, 8 of them were IPS.

On another note, I've got some nice additional info on the scanline issue from the OP!

Someone who is much smarter than me told me the following info:

"The 3DS has built-in power management rather than being controlled analog like the DS was in regards to LCD bias. This is a custom IC by Texas Instruments 93045A4 49AF3NW G2 in the new3DS XL. "

So basically he figured out what replaced the potentiometer that used to be in the DSi/GBA/etc.

Maybe there is a way to adjust this Texas Instruments 93045A4 49AF3NW G2 so the top screen can get the exact power required to rid it completely of the scanlines?

Here is the culprit (it is in the light blue box) on the new3DS XL:

I would imagine this is impossible to adjust?

 

[Captain Charisma]

Thanks for the reply. I've bought 4 3DS, 2 on 9.0 but we're TN, 2 were 9.4 but were IPS. Dilemmas!

 

[Kohmei]

It shouldn't be hard to get an IPS (maybe it's different in the UK?). From the 10 I bought here in the US, 8 of them were IPS.

On another note, I've got some nice additional info on the scanline issue from the OP!

Someone who is much smarter than me told me the following info:

"The 3DS has built-in power management rather than being controlled analog like the DS was in regards to LCD bias. This is a custom IC by Texas Instruments 93045A4 49AF3NW G2 in the new3DS XL. "

So basically he figured out what replaced the potentiometer that used to be in the DSi/GBA/etc.

Maybe there is a way to adjust this Texas Instruments 93045A4 49AF3NW G2 so the top screen can get the exact power required to rid it completely of the scanlines?

Here is the culprit (it is in the light blue box) on the new3DS XL:

I would imagine this is impossible to adjust?

That is interesting indeed. I wonder if this means the voltage is adjustable in software? Maybe a homebrew app that adjusts it one day /wishfulthinking

 

[nccom]

Additional info - this is called Vcom voltage and its usually adjusted by potentiometer on old screens like on DS Lite or digitally regulated on most (all?) new screens (3ds, n3ds, cellphones/tablets).
http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/an12/an1208.pdf or google "lcd vcom adjust"

Now the important question - have you tried to run these systems for 5-10 minutes to see if they'll still flicker? I'm asking because my DSi XL has this issue but it disappears after ~5 minutes. When I got it I immediately noticed it and tried to adjust the screen...did that succesfully but it started to flicker after 5 minutes so I had to readjust it back to factory setting (I marked it before).
So my DSi XL basically has 2 states, lets call them "hot" and "cold", and they require different Vcom voltages. With correct adjustment it will flicker for 5 minutes after bootup but flickering will gradually disappear and image will be completely stable after that. I'm very sensitive to this so I know how to check screen for a good adjustment.

 

[Hammyface]

Additional info - this is called Vcom voltage and its usually adjusted by potentiometer on old screens like on DS Lite or digitally regulated on most (all?) new screens (3ds, n3ds, cellphones/tablets).
http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/an12/an1208.pdf or google "lcd vcom adjust"

Now the important question - have you tried to run these systems for 5-10 minutes to see if they'll still flicker? I'm asking because my DSi XL has this issue but it disappears after ~5 minutes. When I got it I immediately noticed it and tried to adjust the screen...did that succesfully but it started to flicker after 5 minutes so I had to readjust it back to factory setting (I marked it before).
So my DSi XL basically has 2 states, lets call them "hot" and "cold", and they require different Vcom voltages. With correct adjustment it will flicker for 5 minutes after bootup but flickering will gradually disappear and image will be completely stable after that. I'm very sensitive to this so I know how to check screen for a good adjustment.

Excellent find, nccom!

Is there any way to adjust this Vcom voltage thing? Since Nintendo did not change the Texas Instruments chip between new3DS XL consoles with TN panels and IPS panels, the theory that they never adjusted appropriately seems to hold true.

I have noticed the scanline effect is most noticeable as soon as you power the console on or take it out of sleep mode. It does get better after some time, but it's still always there. Just to varying degrees of annoyingness.

 

[nccom]

I don't know how to adjust it in systems with digital controllers I was just curious about what exactly I was adjusting with this screw so I've spent a few hours on google long time ago to find it out.
And btw I don't really think that Nintendo uses IPS and TN panels, more likely its 2 types of IPS and one of them may be cheaper type or just not correctly adjusted at factory.

 

[Apache Thunder]

Not sure if this will end up being relevant or not. But I noticed something interesting with my old 3DS XL that is similar to the issue you have. I "manually" transferred system save data and SD content from my old bricked 3DS to my 3DS XL.

This involved editing the movable.sed file (found in the private folder of the ctr nand fat16 partition) and removing data after 0x120 and zeroing out the first 4 bytes after "SEED". Doing this allowed me to copy over the entire data folder from the fat16 partition of the old 3DS to my 3DS XL. This allowed me to use all the SD card content and save games I had made on the old bricked 3DS. This effectively means I bypassed using system transfer. My NNID that was on the bricked 3DS was moved over to my 3DS XL awhile back when I called Nintendo to have it manaully unlinked and relinked to the 3DS XL I now have.

The first thing I noticed after restoring movable.sed and the data folder from old 3DS was the scanline issue you mentioned for your n3DS. I only noticed it because it's not present on sysnand while emunand suddenly has it. It's also slightly dimmer then sysnand even though both are on the same brightness setting with powersaving feature turned off. Sysnand does not have noticable scanlines while emunand now does.

I don't know if this could resolve your issue, but a manual transfer from a unit that does not have the scanline issue might resolve the scanline issue for your n3DS. It might actually be a software problem.

Unless you have direct physical evidence that the n3DS units with the issue actually have different LCD panels. Then I guess what I've mentioned isn't the exact same issue the n3DS is having.

 

[Kohmei]

That's certainly proof the 3DS has software control of the screen voltage regulation. How to modify it in our favor, on the other hand... that's well outside of anything I would know how to do. But it sounds promising

The N3DS XLs definitely use 2 different panel types for the top screen; they're night and day when you compare them side by side. I suspect the system build was spec'd for one of the panels, with the other panel requiring slightly more (or less) voltage than that specification, which causes the problem.