Hardware Scanlines on N3DS XL

[Pereb]

Try going through smaller intervals. I tried changing 0x03 per step and eventually found a "sweet spot" for LCD calibration.

Well, I should be seeing changes between the values regardless, but I'll try this. Also, were you doing this on sysNAND or emuNAND?

 

[NekoMichi]

Well, I should be seeing changes between the values regardless, but I'll try this. Also, were you doing this on sysNAND or emuNAND?

I did this on emuNAND only. One thing to note is that the line effect seems to be fixed for most of the screen, but I still notice a very slight scanline effect only on the left and right edges.

 

[Pereb]

I did this on emuNAND only. One thing to note is that the line effect seems to be fixed for most of the screen, but I still notice a very slight scanline effect only on the left and right edges.

Still not seeing any meaningful change. One thing I'd like to point out is that the scanline effect tends to subside a bit after 10-15 mins since turning on the screen, and comes back when you leave it off. Are you sure that's not what you're seeing?

 

[NekoMichi]

Still not seeing any meaningful change. One thing I'd like to point out is that the scanline effect tends to subside a bit after 10-15 mins since turning on the screen, and comes back when you leave it off. Are you sure that's not what you're seeing?

I haven't tested leaving the screen on for extended periods, will give this a shot. I noticed that this effect is more pronounced when the screen is displaying dark objects or if you're viewing it in a darkened room.

 

[thebatdadd]

Changing the settings on My N3DSXL with IPS screen doesn't seem to be making a difference either unfortunately. It's defaulted on 0x84 and I've tried 0x6A as well as 0x00 just for the hell of it and I can't notice anything. When I'm changing the flicker settings I can see the grid pattern's lighting change, but once I go back to the main menu and try to play games it still all looks the same. I normally have my system at max brightness and changed the brightness setting in cofig from 5 to 4 just to see if the changes are being applied and my backlight was set to 4 after going back to the home menu, so the system is applying the changes.

Maybe what I'm seeing aren't actually scanlines but this poster on reddit captured exactly what it is I'm seeing and trying to alleviate:
http://i.imgur.com/R0ycGqK.jpg

Those freaking horizontal lines, some of them are even a slight red/green on the tiles around link. Such a nuisance

edit: Just tried it on my brother's N3DS non-XL with a TN screen and changing the settings makes a huge difference, it's like night and day. Guess some of our IPS N3DS XL are hardwired to not change. On my brother's system I set it all the way to 0x00 and it looks incredibly washed out so it is definitely making a difference. Strangely enough it is defaulted to 0x6c, different than the N3DS XL that is defaulted on 0x84

 

[NekoMichi]

So, it looks like it didn't do the trick after all. Well, at least not permanently.
(N3DS XL IPS 9.2 sysNAND / 10.5 emuNAND, SDK 11.4)

Adjusting top screen flicker seems to reduce the effect somewhat, but they are still very apparent on the left and right edges. Turning the console off and then using it the next day, however, causes the lines to reappear across the entire screen. It might be that the config tool didn't do anything and that the lines were fading after certain amount of time after turning on the LCD, like how Pereb pointed out.

At the moment I've only tried this on 10.5 emuNAND with the 11.4 .cia format of the config tool. Perhaps using sysNAND, a different version of the SDK, or the .3ds format could make a difference.

 

[Pereb]

Shame this didn't work for you. I tried doing this on sysNAND and it didn't work either for me.

Dude, I love you. You are such an amazing asset to this community.

This has completely fixed the scanline issue that has been plagued me since the day I got my n3ds XL. Trying to ignore it wasn't working and I actually got a small n3DS because those have TN panels and do not have the issue.

But now, I dug out my n3DS XL with the IPS panel and I did your fix and holy crap, it works! I used my Gateway card to boot config.3ds. I changed the upper screen's value to 0x75 (interestingly, mine was defaulted to 0x84), and I rebooted my system. And guess what? Scanlines are completely gone!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!

Now if I can only somehow get this to work on my DSiXL. The top screens on those are IPS, too, and have the scanline effect pretty bad. There are physical potentiometers I can adjust, but it seems like the scanlines always come back a day or two after I fix them. I thought maybe the pots were somehow turning on their own but after the last time I did it, I actually hot glued the pot down and the issue came back, so it's not that. So strange. I wish I knew why it did that.

But anyway, thank you again so much man! I can't believe this actually worked! I guess Nintendo is sending these things out of the factory with the wrong values or something! You're the best!

Can you confirm this worked permanently for you and the scanlines did not come back after not using the 3DS for a few hours? Could you also tell us when you bought your console? And which version of Config.3ds did you use?
I wonder if Gateway does some magic that lets the config tool work properly... wishful thinking though, I doubt that's actually the case.

I have a newer DSTwo with DSTwo Plus hardware, so if you can confirm this worked permanently for you then I'm going to try using config in Gateway mode.

EDIT : Tried the 2.3.4 Config tool in Gateway mode (don't have the 11.4 one in 3ds form) and no change.

 

[Hammyface]

Shame this didn't work for you. I tried doing this on sysNAND and it didn't work either for me.



Can you confirm this worked permanently for you and the scanlines did not come back after not using the 3DS for a few hours? Could you also tell us when you bought your console? And which version of Config.3ds did you use?
I wonder if Gateway does some magic that lets the config tool work properly... wishful thinking though, I doubt that's actually the case.

I have a newer DSTwo with DSTwo Plus hardware, so if you can confirm this worked permanently for you then I'm going to try using config in Gateway mode.

EDIT : Tried the 2.3.4 Config tool in Gateway mode (don't have the 11.4 one in 3ds form) and no change.

Unfortunately it did not work permanently for me. I apologize for getting your hopes up. :\

 

[Hammyface]

I know exactly the effect you're talking about.

If the console screen isn't moving relative to the player's eyes then the effect isn't visible, but if the screen is sliding up and down or moving nearer/further away from the eyes, then dark horizontal lines appear to scroll across the screen. The effect happens under both fluorescent and non-fluorescent environmental lighting as well as in the dark with a backlight or built-in frontlight.

I've experienced this effect on GBC, GBA, GBA SP, DSi, and DSi XL, all of which I fixed by adjusting the potentiometer on the main logic board. The issue hasn't occurred on DS and O3DS or any other non-Nintendo portable devices with screens. My N3DS XL upper screen is affected too and like most of the people in this thread, I checked hi-res photos of the N3DS XL logic board from iFixit but didn't see any potentiometers. I did the sideways screen test and found that both my DS and O3DS are using TN displays while my N3DS XL has an IPS display, unfortunately it's on a newer sysNAND and can't be further tested with a Gateway card. Hopefully someone could come up with a homebrew application that can fix this via Ninjhax.

Here's a summary of devices tested:
GameBoy (DMG-001): Not affected
GameBoy Pocket (MGB-001): Not affected
GameBoy Color (CGB-001): Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjustment
GameBoy Advance (AGB-001): Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjustment
GameBoy Advance SP (AGS-001): Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjustment
DS (NTR-001): Not affected, TN display
DSi (TWL-001): Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjustment
DSi XL (UTL-001): Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjustment (problem returns after a few days)
3DS (CTR-001): Not affected, TN display
New 3DS XL (RED-001): Affected, no potentiometer on logic board

This is a great post and I noticed the exact same things you've noticed with the exact same consoles. I have been obsessed with this scanline issue since 2001 when I first got a GBA.

I would like to add in five other consoles you did not mention and my findings:

DS Lite: Not affected
GBA Micro: Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjusmet
GameBoy Advance SP (AGS-101; the later units with a backlit (not frontlit) screen) Not affected
New 3DS (non-XL): Not affected
New 3DS XL with TN panel: Not affected

For the life of me I cannot figure out why the DSLite, AGS-101, or the o3DS would not have the issue but the DSi would. I seriously can't figure out what the differences are in those screens.

I also can't believe you had the same issue I did: you can fix it in the DSi XL but it comes back! It's so strange. All other Nintendo handhelds the issue will permanently be fixed when adjusting the potentiometers except the DSi XL it always comes back. One other thing I noticed about the DSi XL is that if you fix one screen permanently, the other will have the issue. For example: I have two DSi XL consoles. One of them has the issue on the top screen, but not on the bottom. The reverse is the case for the other DSi XL. On both consoles, whenever I fix the affected screen, it comes back; even though it's two different screens. My guess is that on the DSi XL you can get one perfect screen, but not both.

If it makes it more likely that we figure this whole thing out, it might help you to know that the term isn't really called "scanlines" but actually "multiplexing".

 

[NekoMichi]

This is a great post and I noticed the exact same things you've noticed with the exact same consoles. I have been obsessed with this scanline issue since 2001 when I first got a GBA.

I would like to add in five other consoles you did not mention and my findings:

DS Lite: Not affected
GBA Micro: Affected, fixed via potentiometer adjusmet
GameBoy Advance SP (AGS-101; the later units with a backlit (not frontlit) screen) Not affected
New 3DS (non-XL): Not affected
New 3DS XL with TN panel: Not affected

For the life of me I cannot figure out why the DSLite, AGS-101, or the o3DS would not have the issue but the DSi would. I seriously can't figure out what the differences are in those screens.

I also can't believe you had the same issue I did: you can fix it in the DSi XL but it comes back! It's so strange. All other Nintendo handhelds the issue will permanently be fixed when adjusting the potentiometers except the DSi XL it always comes back. One other thing I noticed about the DSi XL is that if you fix one screen permanently, the other will have the issue. For example: I have two DSi XL consoles. One of them has the issue on the top screen, but not on the bottom. The reverse is the case for the other DSi XL. On both consoles, whenever I fix the affected screen, it comes back; even though it's two different screens. My guess is that on the DSi XL you can get one perfect screen, but not both.

If it makes it more likely that we figure this whole thing out, it might help you to know that the term isn't really called "scanlines" but actually "multiplexing".

Thanks for giving us the proper term for the issue , there are a few new consoles I forgot to add to the list. What's interesting is that the DSi (non-XL) does't use IPS displays yet it can still have the multiplexing issue, which again can be fixed by adjusting the current being supplied to the display panel.

On my DSi XL, the situation's slightly different - originally both screens had multiplexing and I was able to adjust the potentiometers to fix both screens, however only the upper screen reverted back to having scrolling horizontal lines whereas the touchscreen stayed fixed. I also noticed that the potentiometers on the DSi XL became stiffer over time and are now almost impossible to turn in either direction, but maybe I just have a faulty unit (it was second hand and I don't know if the previous owner tinkered with the insides before or not).

My guess is that somewhere between the DSi XL and the 3DS, Nintendo decided to change the method of controlling the LCD flicker to become non-user accessible and as a result, screens can't be adjusted even if they're out of calibration.

 

[Pereb]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why the DSLite, AGS-101, or the o3DS would not have the issue but the DSi would. I seriously can't figure out what the differences are in those screens.

Pretty sure the correct term is "pixel inversion". Every LCD screen does this (a panel would fry within seconds without it), but generally panel manufacturers calibrate it decently enough so that it's not, or barely visible. See http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php for possible patterns.

Nintendo gives zero fucks however. I have not had a single Nintendo screen where this wasn't noticeable to an extent, and that includes the three models you've listed. To make it worse, it's more visible on some colors than others which means you can't get rid of it completely by calibrating the pot/using the config tool.
Generally, by adjusting the pots you can reduce it enough to not notice it, I have no experience with the DSi XL however.

As I said before, on 3DS TN panels, it looks like a checkerboard pattern instead of a line pattern, which is much less noticeable thankfully (and you can use the config tool to reduce it too). I've definitely seen it on various panels though.

 

[Hammyface]

Yes, that is an excellent point! Once I fix it so that it's not visible on one color, it will show up on another color. I like to use Chrono Trigger DS in a scene with blue skies. I fix it so the blue skies do not have the scanlines/multiplexing/inversion but then a solid grey color will come up in the game and there they are again!

The DSi XL really is interesting as @NekoMichi had the same experience I did. You can fix one screen, but it's impossible to fix both. I bet it has something to do with Nintendo being unable to supply the proper voltages to both screens at once. I wonder if there was something we could solder in place of the potentiometers that would "fix" them to the perfect value (if there is one).

One other "console" I had this issue very badly with was the PSone with the attached screen. I also had a cheap GPS from 2004 that had this issue as well, but obviously it's not going to bother me on a cheap GPS. But it seems like Nintendo handhelds are incredibly prone to this. @Pereb, I am surprised you saw this issue on the AGS-101 as I have two of them (well one of them is actually just an AGS-001 but with an AGS-101 screen) and neither have the issue. I have also never seen it on a DSiLite and I have had several of those in my life. Shows up on every damn DSi, DSiXL, and n3DS XL with an IPS panel. I actually got rid of my IPS n3ds XL because I prefered TN just because those didn't have the issue. I bet Nintendo never intended the n3DS XL to have IPS panels but there was a screen shortage and they just had to go with whatever they had.

If the SNES "vertical bar" issue was able to be figured out finally after years of people trying to figure it out, I am sure we can crack the case on this! We'd solve 15+ years of Nintendo handheld issues!

 

[Pereb]

I actually got rid of my IPS n3ds XL because I prefered TN just because those didn't have the issue. I bet Nintendo never intended the n3DS XL to have IPS panels but there was a screen shortage and they just had to go with whatever they had.

If the SNES "vertical bar" issue was able to be figured out finally after years of people trying to figure it out, I am sure we can crack the case on this! We'd solve 15+ years of Nintendo handheld issues!

This is probably far more complex than the SNES vertical line issue (which as far as I could find, only involves replacing a capacitor).

I also went from the N3DS XL to the small one, kinda regretting my decision however. I found the TN screen to be shitty in different ways, and that I prefer pretty much everything except maybe the screens on the XL. Debating getting a TN XL atm.
The pixel response time on the TN is, ironically, significantly slower than the IPS (go figure...). This introduces more blurring and trailing/ghosting (and I hate trailing, can't stand the AGS-101 and the DS Lite for that reason). The IPS isn't much faster, but it's definitely faster. The TN is also prone to bad backlight uniformity (when the screen is displaying solid lighter colors you may notice some dark smudges), this isn't noticeable 95% of the time though.
On the other hand the IPS has the scanline issue (which is the most annoying IMO), and a much lower contrast ratio for some reason.

 

[Hammyface]

This is probably far more complex than the SNES vertical line issue (which as far as I could find, only involves replacing a capacitor).

I also went from the N3DS XL to the small one, kinda regretting my decision however. I found the TN screen to be shitty in different ways, and that I prefer pretty much everything except maybe the screens on the XL. Debating getting a TN XL atm.
The pixel response time on the TN is, ironically, significantly slower than the IPS (go figure...). This introduces more blurring and trailing/ghosting (and I hate trailing, can't stand the AGS-101 and the DS Lite for that reason). The IPS isn't much faster, but it's definitely faster. The TN is also prone to bad backlight uniformity (when the screen is displaying solid lighter colors you may notice some dark smudges), this isn't noticeable 95% of the time though.
On the other hand the IPS has the scanline issue (which is the most annoying IMO), and a much lower contrast ratio for some reason.

Man it's like you and I are the same person. I could not stand the motion trail on the AGS-101 or the DS Lite. You do not see it in games like Mario Kart but man you really see it in the Super Mario Advance games.

I gotta agree the scanlines are the worst. I do have the small n3ds as well, and the TN panel does have a problem the IPS one does not, and it's the trailing. Not noticeable in most games but when you walk around the village in Shovel Knight, you can see how blurry the outlines of the villagers get when you move on the screen. This does not happen on the IPS panel.

I wish Nintendo could just make one, perfect panel. I think the best screen I ever saw in my life is on the PS Vita, but until that thing can play SNES games at full speed its beautiful screen is useless to me. Oh and Sony switched away from the OLED to LCD and they suck now.

 

[Kohmei]

I can't believe my thread is still alive a year later. I've been wondering if they managed to fix this yet with newer IPS panels but I guess not

At any rate, I was completely unaware that TN panels also suffer from this issue but with a checkerboard pattern instead of lines. I've been seeing exactly that on my TN computer monitor and I had no idea what it was. It's nice to know what it's called and that it's a fault rather than just my eyes playing tricks on me!

See http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php for possible patterns.

What a great test. I had to double check that those weren't animated .gifs because several of them appear to be moving. Will definitely be looking for a monitor replacement now

 

[Pereb]

I can't believe my thread is still alive a year later. I've been wondering if they managed to fix this yet with newer IPS panels but I guess not

At any rate, I was completely unaware that TN panels also suffer from this issue but with a checkerboard pattern instead of lines. I've been seeing exactly that on my TN computer monitor and I had no idea what it was. It's nice to know what it's called and that it's a fault rather than just my eyes playing tricks on me!


What a great test. I had to double check that those weren't animated .gifs because several of them appear to be moving. Will definitely be looking for a monitor replacement now

Every single monitor is going to flicker on at least one of the test patterns. Also keep in mind the pattern you get depends on how pixel inversion is implemented on the panel. It's not related to panel type. I was talking about 3DS screens only.

 

[Xenon Hacks]

So recently I had to open my N3DSXL to replace the wifi antenna and when I screwed everything together I had this effect and started to panic (sweaty hands and all) I rushed to open it again to remount the antenna and it disappeared this is not normal and is a defect internally. I have an IPS screen BTW

 

[Pereb]

So recently I had to open my N3DSXL to replace the wifi antenna and when I screwed everything together I had this effect and started to panic (sweaty hands and all) I rushed to open it again to remount the antenna and it disappeared this is not normal and is a defect internally. I have an IPS screen BTW

Interesting, but I seriously doubt it's something you can fix when pretty much all of them have this.

 

[Xenon Hacks]

Interesting, but I seriously doubt it's something you can fix when pretty much all of them have this.

I did reinsert all the ribbon cables that are visible from the back (this used to haappen to PSP's when the lcd was not in all the way), I can only assume the large one in the center was the LCD but I can't be sure.

 

[Pereb]

I did reinsert all the ribbon cables that are visible from the back (this used to haappen to PSP's when the lcd was not in all the way), I can only assume the large one in the center was the LCD but I can't be sure.

Did you have to lift the motherboard? I'm going to try this.