Homebrew RetroArch - A new multi-system emulator

[Nemesis90]

This is a bit off topic but it does pertain a to SNES9x, and i've never really got a straight answer at the official forums. Does anyone here have a more in depth explanation of why SMW romhacks (usually the ones accompanied with custom music) broke with the change from 1.51 to 1.52? I understand there were some big cores changes in 1.52 but i don't understand why it caused severe audio glitches and freezing. I'm not asking for a fix (as the issue lies with original PC release as well) but i'd just like to understand it better from an expert like maister.

 

[tacodaemon]

Thank you for suggesting the ABX tests. They were very illuminating. After 10 tests, I was able to tell a difference 100% between FCEUMM and Nestopia 1.44 in RA 0.9.8.2. However, when testing against Nestopia 1.44 Undead in Windows, I could not perceive a difference between the two recordings after Replaygain adjustment. There may have been a slight frequency difference, but I did not feel confident that I could ABX them, and that may have been due to my recording methods anyway. In my opinion, it sounds like the RA port of Nestopia Undead faithfully reproduces the sound of the Windows port. I call this a non-issue for the RetroArch team.

Otherwise, I performed the Genesis tests first, and was easily able to tell a difference 100% between the standalone version and the RA port using Sonic & Knuckles. However, after the NES tests, I feel I need to revisit them and do a bit more testing before making an official report. I need to get to work now, so it will have to wait until tonight. If anyone wants to use my samples to provide ABX results as well, please do. WAVs of all samples are included, and also the replaygain'ed lossless FLAC files I used for the NES testing.

Here are copies of my ABX results. Please remember that the NES results just prove that there is a difference between FCEUMM and Nestopia 1.44 Undead, but I believe this has nothing to do with RA. The non-normalized NES WAV results are not included to reduce post size, but are included in the uploaded zip.

https://anonfiles.com/file/581ebc95e1381d383295f9b8c4d00594

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.6
2013/02/07 08:25:09

File A: FCEUMM - Contra.flac
File B: RA Nestopia 1.44 - Contra.flac

08:25:09 : Test started.
08:25:37 : 01/01 50.0%
08:25:44 : 02/02 25.0%
08:25:48 : 03/03 12.5%
08:25:53 : 04/04 6.3%
08:25:59 : 05/05 3.1%
08:26:07 : 06/06 1.6%
08:26:12 : 07/07 0.8%
08:26:17 : 08/08 0.4%
08:26:21 : 09/09 0.2%
08:26:33 : 10/10 0.1%
08:26:35 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.6
2013/02/07 08:04:29

File A: Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3.wav
File B: RA .9.8.2 Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3.wav

08:04:29 : Test started.
08:04:36 : 01/01 50.0%
08:04:45 : 02/02 25.0%
08:04:53 : 03/03 12.5%
08:05:00 : 04/04 6.3%
08:05:08 : 05/05 3.1%
08:05:15 : 06/06 1.6%
08:05:22 : 07/07 0.8%
08:05:29 : 08/08 0.4%
08:05:35 : 09/09 0.2%
08:05:41 : 10/10 0.1%
08:07:19 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

 

[B.B.Link]

Hi. I'm new here and I would like to ask about some features I would love to see on Retroarch-wii. I'm currently utilizing the FBA CPS feature and playing the hell out the whole Marvel vs Capcom series. First I would love to see either the save states work for FBA or save RAM work because its very frustrating to keep setting dip-switches every time I restart Retroarch, plus I would love to save my Hi scores as well. Also, it would be nice to be able to set different triggers (like say for example the kick and punch buttons in MVC) to the same button on the classic controller, that way you can set something like 3 punches to 1 button making specials easier to perform. If we get these features implemented, this can be very well be the best emulator for the Wii.

I'm not very good at explaining things so I hope you understand my post and hopefully we'll see these things in the next release.

Just in case my earlier post got buried.....

 

[the_randomizer]

This is a bit off topic but it does pertain a to SNES9x, and i've never really got a straight answer at the official forums. Does anyone here have a more in depth explanation of why SMW romhacks (usually the ones accompanied with custom music) broke with the change from 1.51 to 1.52? I understand there were some big cores changes in 1.52 but i don't understand why it caused severe audio glitches and freezing. I'm not asking for a fix (as the issue lies with original PC release as well) but i'd just like to understand it better from an expert like maister.

For starters, the ROM hacks required broken emulation as they required one to take advantage of emulation exploits that a normal Snes wouldn't normally do. They wouldn't work on a real Snes. Not to mention Snes9x 1.52 had a massive rewrite to the SPC700/S-SMP emulation engine code (more accurate sound), so this breaks the SMW hacks. Your best bet is to use older versions of Snes9x or Zsnes.

Thank you for suggesting the ABX tests. They were very illuminating. After 10 tests, I was able to tell a difference 100% between FCEUMM and Nestopia 1.44 in RA 0.9.8.2. However, when testing against Nestopia 1.44 Undead in Windows, I could not perceive a difference between the two recordings after Replaygain adjustment. There may have been a slight frequency difference, but I did not feel confident that I could ABX them, and that may have been due to my recording methods anyway. In my opinion, it sounds like the RA port of Nestopia Undead faithfully reproduces the sound of the Windows port. I call this a non-issue for the RetroArch team.

Otherwise, I performed the Genesis tests first, and was easily able to tell a difference 100% between the standalone version and the RA port using Sonic & Knuckles. However, after the NES tests, I feel I need to revisit them and do a bit more testing before making an official report. I need to get to work now, so it will have to wait until tonight. If anyone wants to use my samples to provide ABX results as well, please do. WAVs of all samples are included, and also the replaygain'ed lossless FLAC files I used for the NES testing.

Here are copies of my ABX results. Please remember that the NES results just prove that there is a difference between FCEUMM and Nestopia 1.44 Undead, but I believe this has nothing to do with RA. The non-normalized NES WAV results are not included to reduce post size, but are included in the uploaded zip.

https://anonfiles.com/file/581ebc95e1381d383295f9b8c4d00594

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.6
2013/02/07 08:25:09

File A: FCEUMM - Contra.flac
File B: RA Nestopia 1.44 - Contra.flac

08:25:09 : Test started.
08:25:37 : 01/01 50.0%
08:25:44 : 02/02 25.0%
08:25:48 : 03/03 12.5%
08:25:53 : 04/04 6.3%
08:25:59 : 05/05 3.1%
08:26:07 : 06/06 1.6%
08:26:12 : 07/07 0.8%
08:26:17 : 08/08 0.4%
08:26:21 : 09/09 0.2%
08:26:33 : 10/10 0.1%
08:26:35 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.6
2013/02/07 08:04:29

File A: Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3.wav
File B: RA .9.8.2 Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3.wav

08:04:29 : Test started.
08:04:36 : 01/01 50.0%
08:04:45 : 02/02 25.0%
08:04:53 : 03/03 12.5%
08:05:00 : 04/04 6.3%
08:05:08 : 05/05 3.1%
08:05:15 : 06/06 1.6%
08:05:22 : 07/07 0.8%
08:05:29 : 08/08 0.4%
08:05:35 : 09/09 0.2%
08:05:41 : 10/10 0.1%
08:07:19 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

Whew! What a post Did you also copy/paste the results for themaister to read as well?
https://github.com/Themaister/RetroArch/issues?state=open

There's something I need clarification on, you mentioned there was a difference between FCEUmm and Nestopia 1.43, but what did you test Nestopia Undead against? "However, when testing against Nestopia 1.44 Undead in Windows, I could not perceive a difference between the two recordings after Replaygain adjustment." Could you elabortate what replaygain is and what the udead version was tested against? What did you mean by RA port of Nestopia Undead? I thought RA used a version of 1.43, but not undead.

To sum up, RA port Nestopia 1.43 vs Nestopia Undead Windows - Perceptible difference, but I'm confused what replay gain is, and how there is an RA port of the Undead version. If there's no difference between the RA version and Windows version of Nestopia Undead, then the team out to use that instead of 1.43. Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3 standalone vs. RA Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3 - very noticeable difference Is that what you're saying in a nutshell? Please also post these on the github site I linked to. Again, please clarify what you tested Nestopia Undead against, and how it's not a fault of the RA port.

For the genesis tests, I think you reversed the names. the RA version sounds better than the standalone version, where I originally reported it to be just the opposite; the RA version sounded < than the standalone version of the same emulator. For the NES recordings, there was a huge difference between Undead and the RA 1.43 port.

Please let themaister know about these ABX tests.

Edit: Tested the FLAC files and there is a difference in how the sound effects sound in Nestopia 1.43/1.44 versus FCEUmm. The SFX in RA Nestopia sound more distorted, one just needs to listen very carefully. I'll keep testing the samples numerous times.

 

[tacodaemon]

From the .9.8 changelog:

- [LIBRETRO] Added NEStopia Undead (1.44).

I have done no testing with version 1.43. However, yes, I am uncomfortable with the current state of my Genesis testing, other than saying that there is a difference. I need to retest tonight before I post results Themaister to review.

Replaygain, to over simplify, is a tool to normalize volume levels among multiple files. This was necessary since Nestopia is so much louder than FCEUMM in RA. Test results without replaygain are included in the file as well.

 

[the_randomizer]

From the .9.8 changelog:

- [LIBRETRO] Added NEStopia Undead (1.44).

Yes, I'm uncomfortable with the current state of my Genesis testing, other than saying that there is a difference. I need to retest tonight before I post results Themaister to review.

Oops, my bad. I didn't realize that it WAS based off of 1.44, not 1.43. I do notice a slight difference with the normalized FCEUmm and Nestopia Undead RA port, it's hard to notice but if you listen very carefully, the sound effects in the RA port sound distorted still. For the Genesis/Megadrive, by all means, do as much testing as possible. Sorry about the confusion; the NES comparison (after normalization) is harder to perceive but can still be distinguished, the Genesis Plus GX 1.7.3 tests are quite clear but need more tests as well. Keep up the good work.

 

[tacodaemon]

Can you provide ABX results as well? I loaded up SMB 3 in Nestopia Undead 1.44 in Windows and had the same distortion with the sliding sound as it did in the RA port. I can tell a slight difference in my recordings, but it sounds like the difference when you change sample rates in an emulator, which I don't really consider an issue of distortion or a problem with the port. It would take a long time of careful listening for me to successful ABX, if it is even possible. This difference could have been a result of my recording methods as well. I guess my point is that I think the Windows port of Nestopia 1.44 undead sounds poor too, so why waste time trying to mimic its sound exactly in RA? Do you feel otherwise?

Also, I should note that the Nestopia Windows recordings were done using my sound card, not the built-in recording feature of the emulator. This was done in attempt to keep as many variables the same as possible.

 

[the_randomizer]

Can you provide ABX results as well? I loaded up SMB 3 in Nestopia Undead 1.44 in Windows and had the same distortion with the sliding sound as it did in the RA port. I can tell a slight difference in my recordings, but it sounds like the difference when you change sample rates in an emulator, which I don't really consider an issue of distortion or a problem with the port. It would take a long time of careful listening for me to successful ABX, if it is even possible. This difference could have been a result of my recording methods as well. I guess my point is that I think the Windows port of Nestopia 1.44 undead sounds poor too, so why waste time trying to mimic its sound exactly in RA? Do you feel otherwise?

Also, I should note that the Nestopia Windows recordings were done using my sound card, not the built-in recording feature of the emulator. This was done in attempt to keep as many variables the same as possible.

It's not a result of your recording as you ripped the audio directly from the emulator using the sound card(at least with the RA port), but Nestopia Undead definitely sounds close the real hardware system. But yeah, I'll post ABX results as well. The distortion happens on the RA port as well, but not in FCEUmm, which is weird as that sounds perfectly fine (well, aside from the well-known audio/video sync and popping issues it's famous for). I'm thinking it's related to how RetroArch samples the audio and then Nestopia does even more sampling, then the output.

So, you're saying that you don't want to submit these results or the ones from Megadrive tests either? Nestopia is one of the most accurate NES emulators out there, so the sound should be close to a real system. It doesn't sound worse on Windows, it sounds better than on RA. I don't know what to do at this point.

 

[tacodaemon]

I'll submit the Genesis results after re-testing tonight. I think you're right that I mixed up the file names. Let's move further discussion to PMs until definitive test results can be posted.

 

[the_randomizer]

I'll submit the Genesis results after re-testing tonight. I think you're right that I mixed up the file names. Let's move further discussion to PMs until definitive test results can be posted.

Agreed. I'll do more testing as well.

 

[tacodaemon]

Okay, the Genesis issue has been confirmed via ABX in Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles. A third attempt was made with Earthworm Jim and I could not tell the recordings apart. Either this problem only affects some games or my ears are shot. For the samples and results, go here:

https://github.com/Themaister/RetroArch/issues/133

As for Nestopia 1.44, I went back and created new recordings much closer in volume to each other to test the Windows and RA ports against each other again. The first ones had a difference in volume of 12 or more dB and were worthless. I absolutely could not ABX these new recordings like I could with the old ones earlier tonight. I went back and tried the pre-undead Nestopia 1.40 as well to see if I could tell any difference between it and 1.44. No ABX tests this time, but it sounds the same to me. Anyway, the RA port is faithful to the Windows port as far as my ABX tests can prove. That it sounds different than FCEUMM is a moot issue as far as Retroarch is concerned. Again, thanks for porting Nestopia. It's nice to have so many options.

 

[the_randomizer]

Okay, the Genesis issue has been confirmed via ABX in Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles. A third attempt was made with Earthworm Jim and I could not tell the recordings apart. Either this problem only affects some games or my ears are shot. For the samples and results, go here:

https://github.com/Themaister/RetroArch/issues/133

As for Nestopia 1.44, I went back and created new recordings much closer in volume to each other to test the Windows and RA ports against each other again. The first ones had a difference in volume of 12 or more dB and were worthless. I absolutely could not ABX these new recordings like I could with the old ones earlier tonight. I went back and tried the pre-undead Nestopia 1.40 as well to see if I could tell any difference between it and 1.44. No ABX tests this time, but it sounds the same to me. Anyway, the RA port is faithful to the Windows port as far as my ABX tests can prove. That it sounds different than FCEUMM is a moot issue as far as Retroarch is concerned. Again, thanks for porting Nestopia. It's nice to have so many options.

Alright, now to wait and hope that themaister has the time to investigate the issues at hand. Perhaps I should confirm that as well on the report page?

 

[tacodaemon]

I included your ABX results in my upload. That should do it, I think.

 

[the_randomizer]

I included your ABX results in my upload. That should do it, I think.

Okay, that takes care of that then. Now, all we do is wait.

 

[nintygaming]

Okay, the Genesis issue has been confirmed via ABX in Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles. A third attempt was made with Earthworm Jim and I could not tell the recordings apart. Either this problem only affects some games or my ears are shot. For the samples and results, go here:

https://github.com/Themaister/RetroArch/issues/133

As for Nestopia 1.44, I went back and created new recordings much closer in volume to each other to test the Windows and RA ports against each other again. The first ones had a difference in volume of 12 or more dB and were worthless. I absolutely could not ABX these new recordings like I could with the old ones earlier tonight. I went back and tried the pre-undead Nestopia 1.40 as well to see if I could tell any difference between it and 1.44. No ABX tests this time, but it sounds the same to me. Anyway, the RA port is faithful to the Windows port as far as my ABX tests can prove. That it sounds different than FCEUMM is a moot issue as far as Retroarch is concerned. Again, thanks for porting Nestopia. It's nice to have so many options.

Sounding different than FCEUmm is a moot point, but sounding different than the actual console IS an issue. This is what randomizer and I were dealing with. FCEUmm sounds virtually identical to the real NES, while Nestopia in Retroarch sounds tinny/scratchy, and that my friends is not a moot point.

 

[tacodaemon]

It's moot because it sounds the same as the Windows port. You need to take this up with whoever is working on Nestopia Undead, not the Retroarch devs.

 

[nintygaming]

It's moot because it sounds the same as the Windows port. You need to take this up with whoever is working on Nestopia Undead, not the Retroarch devs.

So essentially your saying that Nestopia (official) is the more accurately sounding version and thus would be ideal to port instead of Undead (unofficial)?

 

[the_randomizer]

Sounding different than FCEUmm is a moot point, but sounding different than the actual console IS an issue. This is what randomizer and I were dealing with. FCEUmm sounds virtually identical to the real NES, while Nestopia in Retroarch sounds tinny/scratchy, and that my friends is not a moot point.

Right, and I've had long discussion with tacodaemon about this and I've accepted the fact that Nestopia has to be tested more. For now, we will first deal with the Genesis Plus issue, and then once we can get more ABX testing, we can discuss it with the Nestopia Undead autho. Nestopia Undead with does have a GIT page https://github.com/rdanbrook/nestopia

I believe the author is named rdanbrook

So essentially your saying that Nestopia (official) is the more accurately sounding version and thus would be ideal to port instead of Undead (unofficial)?

The RetroArch port is based off of Undead 1.44, which was mentioned in the change log. He's saying they both sound the same (Windows and RA). We need to find out rdanbrook's info. Issues can be reported here https://github.com/rdanbrook/nestopia/issues

The port itself is fine, the audio is where the issue is happening. The RA devs can't do anything about it, but rdanbrook can.

Please, I don't want you two debate over what's moot point or not, the only solution is to speak with Nestopia's developer and not the RA developers; it's beyond their scope, but the Genesis Plus GX issue is since it's an issue with RetroArch itself.

 

[nintygaming]

Right, and I've had long discussion with tacodaemon about this and I've accepted the fact that Nestopia has to be tested more. For now, we will first deal with the Genesis Plus issue, and then once we can get more ABX testing, we can discuss it with the Nestopia Undead autho. Nestopia Undead with does have a GIT page https://github.com/rdanbrook/nestopia

I believe the author is named rdanbrook


The RetroArch port is based off of Undead 1.44, which was mentioned in the change log. He's saying they both sound the same (Windows and RA). We need to find out rdanbrook's info. Issues can be reported here https://github.com/rdanbrook/nestopia/issues

The port itself is fine, the audio is where the issue is happening. The RA devs can't do anything about it, but rdanbrook can.

So why not just ditch undead and go for the official version?

 

[the_randomizer]

So why not just ditch undead and go for the official version?

Because the issue still happens in the official version of 1.43 as per ABX testing. The issue has plagued Nestopia forever and we need to speak to the developer. Not to mention Undead fixes many audio/video sync issues the older version had. rdanbrook is the one to talk to.