On not having children. Some discussion.

[Foxi4]

Is the Earth doomed? Sure, but we still have hundreds of millions of years, if not a billion years, before that happens, assuming we don't screw everything up. That's a pretty long time from now. Instead, we're focusing on problems tens or hundreds of years from now. Also, assuming we do get to a state of overpopulation, being a scarce renewable resource doesn't make it any less scarce. It might be true to say "we're fine" now, but if we don't change anything, that won't be true in the near-ish future.


Can we make things more energy efficient? Sure, but that only goes so far before we run into barriers keeping us from making things more energy efficient (e.g. the laws of physics). In reality, despite our new technologies, energy consumption has increased per person over the years, and the population of people is increasing.

I was being sarcastic, our resources are "scarce" because they're poorly managed, that's why I mentioned farming subsides. You can't argue rampant hunger and give away food stamps while subsidizing unsustainable and inapropriate farming and burning perfectly edible food - it's nonsense. Why is the free market prevented from self-regulating what people farm and how much the food produced is sold for? If you're looking for wastefulness, that's the pinnacle right there. As for the "we won't live long enough to see it happen" argument, we also won't live long enough to see the environment "destroyed" by overpopulation so that point is moot - the fact that we won't live to see it doesn't make it less of a problem, it's just a problem of future generations. As for addressing issues of +10000 years rather than ones further down the line, why not address both? Progress still seems like a better solution to me.

 

[Lacius]

I was being sarcastic, our resources are "scarce" because they're poorly managed, that's why I mentioned farming subsides. You can't argue rampant hunger and give away food stamps while subsidizing unsustainable and inapropriate farming and burning perfectly edible food - it's nonsense. Why is the free market prevented from self-regulating what people farm and how much the food produced is sold for? If you're looking for wastefulness, that's the pinnacle right there. As for the "we won't live long enough to see it happen" argument, we also won't live long enough to see the environment "destroyed" by overpopulation so that point is moot - the fact that we won't live to see it doesn't make it less of a problem, it's just a problem of future generations. As for addressing issues of +10000 years rather than ones further down the line, why not address both? Progress still seems like a better solution to me.

I didn't make a "we won't live long enough to see it happen" argument. I think in order for humans (or whatever they are in millions of years) to survive, colonizing other planets and eventually other star systems is necessary. I was addressing your apparent argument that we shouldn't worry about immediate issues like overpopulation since the Earth is doomed anyway.

 

[Digital.One.Entity]

Like words from an Angel

 

[sarkwalvein]

Like words from an Angel

And now I produced the completely politically incorrect post of the day.
- Takes the luggage, and flees away.

 

[Foxi4]

I didn't make a "we won't live long enough to see it happen" argument. I think in order for humans (or whatever they are in millions of years) to survive, colonizing other planets and eventually other star systems is necessary. I was addressing your apparent argument that we shouldn't worry about immediate issues like overpopulation since the Earth is doomed anyway.

Sorry, I was replying to your post as well as the post above it, I believe - I'm on mobile so it's hard for me to engage in elaborate formatting. My whole point is that western nations are not at fault when it comes to overpopulation, we're already not reproducing fast enough to be sustainable (this is not as much of a problem in the US as it is in countries with public healthcare, but it will be soon thanks to Obamacare) - remember that it's the future generations that will fund your retirement and healthcare so they have to be at least the same size when in productive age. Overpopulation is an issue in developing countries. As for pollution and resources, communal use is a miniscule fraction of the overall problem and us making efforts to preserve the planet doesn't create a meaningful impact. Take the California draught as an example - climate change is one thing, industry is another. The majority of water there is used for almond farming, the population saving water doesn't make a difference because they're not the cause of the draught - unsustainable farming is. Move farmazony farms to areas with water supply, build a desalination plant or a pipeline, address the issue instead of lowering water usage.

 

[zeello]

Guys, if the purpose was the continue the human species, obviously only some people need to have kids, not EVERYBODY. If everyone keeps having kids, it eventually will all go to hell no matter what. Therefore it's certainly not selfish not to have kids. But if you really didn't want to be selfish and if that was really the issue here, then you'd adopt instead of porking one out yourself.

But also, its the only way to lengthen your families linage, bloodline, and name.

Everyone has a last name, it's not anything special.

The decision not to have kids may have many different ground reasons, but let's be honest, society today is near to a capitalist dystopia, where we just live to produce and consume and repeat that cycle, almost no spirituality, just be a gear of the system (produce, consume, repeat). And people, caught in this cycle and addicted to consumerism, seek for more time for themselves to consume, hence no children (this is the selfish way to look at it, but not the only possible one).

I agree. Having kids is extraordinarily consumerist. It's like you open a magazine and see an ad for a family with a car, so you buy the car and you buy the family. Everyone's doing it! Gotta keep up with the Joneses!

At what point does passing on your genes transcend fulfilling a purpose and enter the realm of selfishness?

That should be worded the other way around. "At what point does passing on your genes transcend selfishness and and enter the realm of fulfilling a purpose?" Having kids out of selfishness is the default position, it's on you to prove why you in particular are better qualified to have kids than everyone else. But the saying goes: If everyone is special than nobody is special. So are you really special, or are you deciding to have kids for the same reason a dog "decides" to have pups.

I don't know how old you are but I think you would regret your decision later when you get older. You die knowing that you could have brought beautiful children to the world who loves you and call you papa. You see them grow up, go to school, get a job... Living without giving life feels incomplete.

That's a completely self-minded reason.

 

[Jayro]

Just found out my roommates (who are a couple) are confirmed pregnant.

Fuck my life.

Why are people so fucking selfish? Them having a baby in 9 months directly affects me, because they are now going to move out in 9 months to a bigger place, doubling my rent here. The world is overpopulated, and I don't believe in adding to it. Every time I go to Walmart to shop, about half the women I see are pregnant, and its so unclassy. Trashy, even. I find Kids under 8 or 9 to just be loud, obnoxious, needy little demons of Satan, and I can't enjoy anything out in public with them around. And what ever happened to condoms? Did people just FORGET they were a thing? Didn't they teach safe sex in health class like when I was in school?

 

[FAST6191]

Didn't they teach safe sex in health class like when I was in school?

You mean abstinence is not the only way?

 

[RevPokemon]

You mean abstinence is not the only way?

Hitting you balls with a baseball bat is a good way not to have kids

 

[FAST6191]

Baseball bat? How very crude. In the modern world we use a bedsnake bat

 

[sarkwalvein]

Baseball bat? How very crude. In the modern world we use a bedsnake bat

Ooh...kay?
And that is actually sold for real, with a big mother's day ad banner above the store's website.
This weird world...

 

[G0R3Z]

I have three children, and I had them young. I was like every person who ever said " I hate kids, I don't want kids" "little spawns of satan" and all of that nonsense. I thought the same way. The moment she said that she was pregnant I was like "shit, I'm going to have to deal with this little shit, I'm never going to have a life". I'd get annoyed at screaming kids in stores and in public. It was like these people didn't know how to raise a child - like all children should be silent.

The moment I saw her little face for the first time changed me forever. I couldn't live without them now. It's a hugely different matter having your own kids and seeing other peoples. Kids aren't a picnic ..... except when you're actually having picnics. It's hard work but infinitely rewarding. They're more important than your qualifications, your worst nightmares or your biggest dreams. They mean everything when you see them for the first time and you wondered why you ever thought you'd never have them. You feel guilty for ever having those thoughts.

Also, I hate other people's kids. Especially people who raise them badly. My oldest daughter of six is basically a genius - she reads three years above her mark and she takes extra-curricular classes because she isn't challenged at school. My second who is currently three is on the same path, being able to read and write perfectly legibly. Please, please don't say you'll never have kids because whilst doing the deed is fun, raising them is glorious. They're basically a little you. You can instill all of the wisdom of your years and raise them in a way you wish your parents raised you. I had a fricking terrible childhood, it was basically neglect. I was left in a room to my own devices and I drew. I drew and drew until I was so good I ran rings around everyone in school. I'm thankful i'm a good artist but I'd trade it for a loving, happy childhood.

Being a parent is the fucking best. I always thought about myself, then I thought about my girlfriend - now wife. And I thought we'd go through life, get jobs and fill a house with crap we'd never use. I'm a member of the PTA, I raise money for charities and I play video games with my daughters. They play Super smash bros, mario kart. We play old NES and Snes games and they know what the tagline Nintendont actually points to. Unlike my actual friends who claim to be nerds and don't know anything about the bitwars.

Nobody can make you have kids, but trust me: Other people's kids and your own kids are two extremely different kids. I hate other people's kids, uncomfortable with them. But i'd rather have a conversation with my daughters than one of my friends - most of the time it's a more intelligent one XD

 

[Foxi4]

Just found out my roommates (who are a couple) are confirmed pregnant.

Fuck my life.

Why are people so fucking selfish? Them having a baby in 9 months directly affects me, because they are now going to move out in 9 months to a bigger place, doubling my rent here. The world is overpopulated, and I don't believe in adding to it. Every time I go to Walmart to shop, about half the women I see are pregnant, and its so unclassy. Trashy, even. I find Kids under 8 or 9 to just be loud, obnoxious, needy little demons of Satan, and I can't enjoy anything out in public with them around. And what ever happened to condoms? Did people just FORGET they were a thing? Didn't they teach safe sex in health class like when I was in school?

Unless this is some weird triangle arrangement you have no reason or right to complain - two adults can do whatever the hell they want and if you're short a roommate, you now have 9 months of a heads-up to find one. You're not their father, Mr. Outrage. Last time I checked roommates shared appartments, not wombs.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Jayro stop complaining and start looking for new roommates, it is not the end of the world you will just have to move your ass out of your comfortable sofa for a moment (or not, just put an ad online if you're such a Hikikomori).
And if you feel so annoyed, ask your roommates to look for new people before they go. Your reaction is out of proportion.

 

[RevPokemon]

This would make A very interesting episode of Dr phil

 

[FAST6191]

stuff

One might argue that such a thing is a biological reaction, maybe so that you want to take care of them, maybe so that you do not eat them and maybe something else (some kind of sunk cost fallacy perhaps) but definitely biological in nature. With that being the case I have to wonder if it applies in the modern world (the need to breathe, yeah that still demonstrably applies, the need to consume most of the food I find so as to gain a few thousand calories needed to continue functioning, yeah I can pull that off with what I charge to answer the phone so probably best to ignore that).

 

[Smuff]

What a silly thread
Being a father is the best feeling ever.
I love my boys (one grown up now, one 5yrs old).
I provide for them (or provided in the case of the elder one) and never took anything from anyone or deprived anyone else of anything.
I fail to see how I did any harm to anyone ?

Imagine if your parents had thought like you - you wouldn't be here to complain.

PS. In my experience the most vociferous members of the "anti-child"brigade have also been the ones with the least opportunity to reproduce, if you catch my drift

 

[G0R3Z]

What a silly thread
Being a father is the best feeling ever.
I love my boys (one grown up now, one 5yrs old).
I provide for them (or provided in the case of the elder one) and never took anything from anyone or deprived anyone else of anything.
I fail to see how I did any harm to anyone ?

Imagine if your parents had thought like you - you wouldn't be here to complain.

PS. In my experience the most vociferous members of the "anti-child"brigade have also been the ones with the least opportunity to reproduce, if you catch my drift

A lot of people are selfish and feel like the world owes them, instead of making an active contribution to society. Again, I know how it feels to be this kind of person. Apparently those paternal instincts kicked in when I became a father.

 

[FAST6191]

Harm done was not really the starting point of the thread, such a discussion kind of has to go into opportunity costs (if you did not have kids would you have say started your own business rather than continued to work for a guaranteed pay packet, would you have continued to knock about with certain people, some kind of environmental discussion....) pretty early on and that is not all that interesting, even if you include the potential positives. I more intended a discussion on the perception of those that do not have kids, nor want them (though that was more optional) and how it plays out in the modern world, specifically whether people had experienced any kind of negative reaction, been negative towards someone and whether that is an antiquated notion.

Also yeah the most vocal doing their best to ruin a concept for others does seem to apply here as well.

 

[go-vegan]

What a silly thread
Being a father is the best feeling ever.

as i explained before, there is nothing "higher or noble" in wanting to reproduce, those feelings are just embedded instincts into our genetic code to make sure species go on.
that is true reason why everybody that wants children, wants so.
but yeah, i believe you it is good feeling, it's just your feelings are pre-programmed, most people resist to this idea seeking something higher in it.
but i believe we evolved enough to realize that future of our kind can't be bright following instincts, but using reasoning and logic.