Homebrew Neek Emunand on SD vs USB? and Tutorial ?

[Dracari]

i had never thought to really look into an Emunand for the Wii, cause i was always careful with what i installed, and usually test now in Dolphin. but the NAND wont last forever granted it will take a long time still for the Wii nand to wear, but i'd like to work on making my system last as long as possible. (so long i have a Display w/ Component out i'll keep mine kickin about! (i've been lately thanks to getting in friends with people in a few speedrunning communities, to go all RGB/Component where possible)

i tried earlier with ModMii's automade thing but it Hung at Reloading bootmii IOS!, i tried coping my cert.sys and made sure i had my shared2 folder copied, tried copying everything off the SD reformating and making sure it was FAT32 w/ 32kb cluster size(its the same stock 4GB Lexar SD that came w/ my A Link between worlds O3DS) froze at the same spot. i Tried copying my bootmii folder to the USB Drive nada..

i'd perfeer if possible SD Over USB, because soon im going to just get rid of my Retron5 (giving it as a hand me down to my brother's kids as a start into retro gaming and leave it w/ a 4GB SD card thats in this and use the 32GB that's in the retron now) and since the USB Drive is smaller than the SD im planning on replacing. it makes more sense to leave the Emunand to go there. but i do understand if its easier in the end on USB, guess i'd have no choice (i tend to use USB Flashdrives than a USB HDD because my USB Enclosure thats my Backup drive i keep for archival purposes and the one i have that will work w/ hard drives isnt ment for that it was part of a Cheap USB Dvd burner that the case kinda fell apart and found that it was just a internal sata drive connected to a USB2Sata converter, and using a Drive exposed like that isnt a smart idea,) and with USB Flash drives when it wears out and you have the backup still. just pitch replace and continue on. *shrug*

 

[rafaelsb]

Cant say about SD but i had the same problem with external HD, stuck at reloading bootmii ios, then i switched to a notebook HD with case adaptor and usb 3.0 cable, now it works flawlessly. I think the Wii works better with these HDs, less compatibility problems.

 

[Dracari]

Tagging @Cyan & @GreyWolf since you guys both have had some success dating back to 2015ish

i've tried dumping n launching with USBLoaderGX(Black screen endlessly)
i tried with Modmii (but left to copy to SD because breaking out my Mac Mini that has my only remaining SD Reader is a PITA) NOPE. hangs on Reloading to Bootmii IOS!
tried copying my USBLoaderGX generated nand dump and making it the only one in /nands same effect.
(mind you the first attempt i wasnt aware that the generated virginized NAND would be small and missing things so some attempts would likely be corrupt)

i go back to square one as im trying to avoid really to using USB if at all possible (again my USB Drive in its enclosure is for Backups of data that cant afford to loose,+ that things power pack is Bulky AF) it wont fit well and hogs space on my Battery Backup.). i extract my Bootmii NAND using ShowMiiWads, copy it to my SD in its own folder in /nands, run ModMii go thru teh same song n dance BUT, this time point it directly at the SD Card let it modify the Dump, (priiloader/postloader, its vers of hbc.. wiiflow but SKIP cIOS since its using myown nand dump) after its done put the SD in and.. finally a change in behavior. No boot but. at bootmii boot its this time trying to do the boot-mii boot of neek2o and neek2o is throwing the nand could not be booted/ not found or incorrect path" Blinking Drive bar, something the previous attempts were NOT doing. eventhough i interrupted teh first attempt at the beginning i waited 20 mins w/o nothing.

so atm what i tried same ish result boot mii has booted at start BUT no lightbar flashing but its staying on black screen..... and its been 40 mins. no USB Drive connected, and just a tad learly leaving the thing to idle overnight while i sleep (its 4:40AM here and i havent gone to bed yet.)

(ooooh im a dumb*CENSORSHEEP* with a virginzed NAND it wont have the system setting to run over EDTV will it? as im connected over Component not composite)

forgot to mention 249 cIOS Base 57 d2x-v10-beta52 / 250 cIOS Base 56 d2x-v10-beta53

 

[Cyan]

i've tried dumping n launching with USBLoaderGX(Black screen endlessly)

dumping nand and launching with the neek option? why ? that's not how neek works.

i tried with Modmii (but left to copy to SD because breaking out my Mac Mini that has my only remaining SD Reader is a PITA) NOPE. hangs on Reloading to Bootmii IOS!

if you don't have bootmii IOS installed, you can't reload to it. incomplete softmod is the problem.

copy it to my SD in its own folder in /nands,

neek or neek2o ?
neek2o needs a sufolder, ex: nands/pl_us/
(pl stands for Post Loader)

ModMii go thru teh same song n dance BUT, this time point it directly at the SD Card let it modify the Dump,

Modmii doesn't modify the dump.

nand could not be booted/ not found or incorrect path" Blinking Drive bar,

like said above : wrong folder !

249 cIOS Base 57 d2x-v10-beta52 / 250 cIOS Base 56 d2x-v10-beta53

neek doesn't care about cIOS.



I don't really understand why it feels so hard to do something that actually require 2 steps...
but everybody tries to do it their own ways, without knowing what they are doing and thinking that is the way to do things.

FIRST :
What do you want neek for? are you sure neek is what you really need? don't use it by default, this is wrong. If what you want to to launch channels, there are SO MUCH EASIER methods.
emuNAND and NEEK are different things !
to use neek, you need BOTH a working emuNAND dump AND neek files. there is no such "neek dump" or "neek emunand". neek is not part of the NAND dump.

To use neek, it's as easy as two steps:
1. make a NAND dump from your console
2. generate neek files, put them on the same partition where you placed your NAND dump
DONE !
2 steps. really. if you get stuck, you did something wrong.


hints:
use USBLoaderGX 1271
use nands/01/ as default path
hmm, that's all I guess.


for the extended guide, here it is :
https://gbatemp.net/posts/6592730
it's old, outdated and mixed with different guides written at different time, requiring different things.
try to mix all, up to get 2 steps I described above.

DO NOT use nswitch to launch neek, use USBLoaderGX's neek option. you won't need bootmii IOS, and won't get stuck there.

 

[Dracari]

dumping nand and launching with the neek option? why ? that's not how neek works.


if you don't have bootmii IOS installed, you can't reload to it. incomplete softmod is the problem.




neek or neek2o ?
neek2o needs a sufolder, ex: nands/pl_us/
(pl stands for Post Loader)


Modmii doesn't modify the dump.


like said above : wrong folder !


neek doesn't care about cIOS.



I don't really understand why it feels so hard to do something that actually require 2 steps...
but everybody tries to do it their own ways, without knowing what they are doing and thinking that is the way to do things.

FIRST :
What do you want neek for? are you sure neek is what you really need? don't use it by default, this is wrong. If what you want to to launch channels, there are SO MUCH EASIER methods.
emuNAND and NEEK are different things !
to use neek, you need BOTH a working emuNAND dump AND neek files. there is no such "neek dump" or "neek emunand". neek is not part of the NAND dump.

To use neek, it's as easy as two steps:
1. make a NAND dump from your console
2. generate neek files, put them on the same partition where you placed your NAND dump
DONE !
2 steps. really. if you get stuck, you did something wrong.


hints:
use USBLoaderGX 1271
use nands/01/ as default path
hmm, that's all I guess.


for the extended guide, here it is :
https://gbatemp.net/posts/6592730
it's old, outdated and mixed with different guides written at different time, requiring different things.
try to mix all, up to get 2 steps I described above.

DO NOT use nswitch to launch neek, use USBLoaderGX's neek option. you won't need bootmii IOS, and won't get stuck there.

well USBLoaderGX launching seems to work fine Neek just causes LED flashing even going thru your tutorial so im just sticking to USBLoaderGX method for now,
the only annoyance atm is a handfull of channels show their TitleID not their Channel Name :/ any way to fix this?

 

[Cyan]

when you say you use the "usbloadergx method" you talk about emuNAND using cIOS ?
most channels can be launched without neek, just by using the "full" method for emuNAND channel.
only few wiiware require neek, and most VC N64.

Some games might work with only specific cIOS version, not necessarily the latest d2x. some games work only with old cIOS rev17 for example.
of course, neek would be easier than having to mess with multiple individual cIOS version per game.


Did you try another device for neek?
SD card is recommended, as it doesn't have all the issues hdd can have (like big sector size, or usb compatibility issue).

If the led is flashing, it means the NAND folder is not found, or maybe not complete.
using neek should be very easy, I don't know why it doesn't work.

How did you generate the neek files? with modmii or with the neek installer from Crediar? did you try both methods?
I personally use Crediar's tool and it always worked.

How I do it:
I dump my real NAND to a folder (using USBLoaderGX, and preferably using IOS58 in the loader instead of d2x, as it might not use the same FAT32 character conversion convention). You can use SimpleFS Dumper for neek to be sure it uses the same conversion method.
the folder I use is using 2 subfolders : nands/xxxx/ <--- seems it's required for neek2o r96
then I generate neek files based on the device I placed the NAND dump to (SD or USB) and whether I want DI or not (I don't need it), and put them in /sneek/ folder of the same partition.
then I setup usbgx to proper paths and individually set only the non working games to neek (all working wads are not using neek but "full" option)

If you enable di, you'll have to be sure at least one game is available or neek will not boot, so first be sure it works without di.bin file, you can add the file later in the /sneek/ folder.

 

[Dracari]

when you say you use the "usbloadergx method" you talk about emuNAND using cIOS ?
most channels can be launched without neek, just by using the "full" method for emuNAND channel.
only few wiiware require neek, and most VC N64.

Some games might work with only specific cIOS version, not necessarily the latest d2x. some games work only with old cIOS rev17 for example.
of course, neek would be easier than having to mess with multiple individual cIOS version per game.


Did you try another device for neek?
SD card is recommended, as it doesn't have all the issues hdd can have (like big sector size, or usb compatibility issue).

If the led is flashing, it means the NAND folder is not found, or maybe not complete.
using neek should be very easy, I don't know why it doesn't work.

How did you generate the neek files? with modmii or with the neek installer from Crediar? did you try both methods?
I personally use Crediar's tool and it always worked.

How I do it:
I dump my real NAND to a folder (using USBLoaderGX, and preferably using IOS58 in the loader instead of d2x, as it might not use the same FAT32 character conversion convention). You can use SimpleFS Dumper for neek to be sure it uses the same conversion method.
the folder I use is using 2 subfolders : nands/xxxx/ <--- seems it's required for neek2o r96
then I generate neek files based on the device I placed the NAND dump to (SD or USB) and whether I want DI or not (I don't need it), and put them in /sneek/ folder of the same partition.
then I setup usbgx to proper paths and individually set only the non working games to neek (all working wads are not using neek but "full" option)

If you enable di, you'll have to be sure at least one game is available or neek will not boot, so first be sure it works without di.bin file, you can add the file later in the /sneek/ folder.

i tried your method at the nd when i was trying to troubleshoot everything, (as in make the SD:/nands/0001 folder and point USBLoaderGX there. for generating the neek files i used Modmii and had it target the SD Card. (this results in flashing blue drive light / hanging if i try nSwitch/ flashing drive light if bootmii boot option)

if i created a nand without using or replacing teh dump from an extraction of my wii's own(USBloaderGX) or (nandextract0.1.3/ShowMiiWads via extracting the bootmii nand dump)and NOT going thru ModMii's Emunand modifier this is where at bootmii neek boot hangs (no drive led/nswitch hangs at reloading bootmii IOS *Despite yes i verified bootmii IOS is installed) letting it modify it, it changes that behavior to flashing drive LED.

i tried moving to USB at next step thinking "Hey maybe my SD Just isnt going to work." went thru ModMii process, al 3 drives it was Drive light/Blackness Hang (where it'd hang what would be reloading BootMii IOS) or nothing. though every time nswitched refused to acknowledge the usb drive had a valid partition (though i made sure the SD and usb drives were formatted as fat32 with a 32kb cluster size) it Just seemed like this wii would not play ball or i got Really unlucky w/ SD Cards and USB Drives. i tried neek rev95 and 96. neither revision made a difference.

the only method i hadnt tried is Cedar's installer. and trying to make the nand dump w/ Simple FS Dumper i'll try that a lil later after some rest (3 cups of coffee and i still feel like i need a power nap ! X_X) any idea however to the whole Title ID Displayed over Channel Name bit in USBLoader GX?

 

[Cyan]

try to launch neek using usbloadergx > settings > features > launch neek.
it bypass the need of bootmii and nswitch. it loads directly the neek's kernel.bin into memory.


The problem with TitleID instead of channel names is due to wrong setup (usually) or a bug. which IOS are you using in the loader? 58 or cIOS ? which IOS is your homebrew channel using ? 58 or 61? which cIOS are you using ? hermes or d2x v8+?
the loader can't access the internal channel's title if you are missing AHB access. so, it keeps using the ID.
channels on real NAND are read at loader's boot, before the first IOS reload, so if you miss NAND access it can't get the titles.
if it's using ID on emuNAND, it's probably a bug, or I forgot how it works.

but, with the ID, it should be able to find the channel's title in Wiitdb.xml even if it didn't manage to read the title from NAND.
are you using wiitdb ?
settings > update > wiitdb.xml
settings > features > use gametdb : enable

 

[Dracari]

try to launch neek using usbloadergx > settings > features > launch neek.
it bypass the need of bootmii and nswitch. it loads directly the neek's kernel.bin into memory.


The problem with TitleID instead of channel names is due to wrong setup (usually) or a bug. which IOS are you using in the loader? 58 or cIOS ? which IOS is your homebrew channel using ? 58 or 61? which cIOS are you using ? hermes or d2x v8+?
the loader can't access the internal channel's title if you are missing AHB access. so, it keeps using the ID.
channels on real NAND are read at loader's boot, before the first IOS reload, so if you miss NAND access it can't get the titles.
if it's using ID on emuNAND, it's probably a bug, or I forgot how it works.

but, with the ID, it should be able to find the channel's title in Wiitdb.xml even if it didn't manage to read the title from NAND.
are you using wiitdb ?
settings > update > wiitdb.xml
settings > features > use gametdb : enable

HBC is using IOS58
cIOS is:
d2x-v8final (base 56 / slot 249)
d2x-v10-beta52 (base 57 / slot 250)
d2x-v10-beta53-alt (base 58 /slot 251)

did just make USBLoaderGX Update Wiidb.txt so thats fixed, but somethings like YAWMM do mention when launched AHBPROT is Disabled (but shows when reloaded under IOS250 but gives error ret-1 when Nand emulation device is selected when selecting USB or SD as WAD source.

should i update 249 to v10 base 56?

 

[Cyan]

when you use something like YAWMM, it indeed tells you that the AHB protection is disabled (because you NEED ahb access, so you need to disable the PROTection).
AHBPROTection disable = AHB access enabled

if YAWMM has AHB access (prot disabled) you should NOT reload to another IOS, or you get an error (ret-1).
Also, you might be using an outdated version or that wad manager.

If what you want is to install wads to emuNAND, don't use it.
instead, use USBLoaderGX's internal emuNAND WAD manager.

USBGX is used for almost everything :
dump NAND to emuNAND
add wads to emuNAND
launch channels on emuNAND (using cIOS)
launch channels on emuNAND (using neek)
Launch neek (without any channel launched)

the only thing it doesn't do is generate neek files you need for SD or USB, it can't be included in the loader because it contains copyrighted IOS. you need to generate the neek files yourself.


I still don't understand what you mean by modmii is modiying your emuNAND.
to my knowledge, modmii does NOT modify the emuNAND, it either :
creates addition files to copy to SD card (NOT in the emuNAND folder !) you should NOT touch your emuNAND folder once it's created except to add/delete channels.
or
Create a empty clean new NAND.

if you merge a dumped NAND with a modmii generated empty NAND, it'll never work. Do not do that!


Do not update slot249 to v10, nor base56.
You already have the best IOS for emuNAND, it's installed in your slot 250 with base 57.
instead of installing a useless cIOS in slot 249, tell the loader to use slot250 instead of 249.

Settings > loader's settings > game's IOS : replace 249 with 250.

Note that it's used only by the wii games and channels using cIOS mode.
Neek has nothing to do with cIOS, it does NOT use them at all.

 

[Dracari]

its been an option in ModMii where i reefer to "Modify Emunand, "

... Edit: im one gogantic dumb***all this time yes you stated w/o a game in sneek format, in sneek+di it will not boot. so i had one game in said format on a USB Drive... i thought i had the right drive (i have afew of the same color Just not labeled the same)... I DIDNT HAVE THE CORRECT ONE CONNECTED.

i now have a booted Emunand! the one from Modmii though, not "nand1" (the one being used by USBLoaderGX that has most of the WiiWare/VC) its a step in the right direction finally!

 

[clandestine]

I'm currently launching Wii ware / VC games off of my SD card. I patched iOS 80. It's been working fine for YEARS. but lately for some reason I will turn on my system and sometimes some of my games will show up as a grey question mark for no apparent reason until I either move them from to the system memory and back to the SD card or reinstall them. It doesn't matter if they are out of region or in region or what. I think my SD card is failing and I need a new one.

Moral of the story is that when I get a new SD card I do not want to install all of the wads to the system memory then manually move them to an SD card again. I also don't want to copy my old SD card to my new one in case the data is corrupted.

I would like to go to an Emunand setup.


What exactly is neek and why is it better than just plain emuunand feature in USB loader GX?

What is the best way to install it in 2022?

 

[Sypherone]

Introduction (translated):
Source : Tutorial USBLGX Emunand einrichten
Installation guides by Cyan : NEEK installation guide / USBLGX Emunand witht cIOS/Neek/Neek2o

The NAND is the built-in memory of the Wii console. It contains save data, downloaded channels and the Wii Menu. It only has a limited size of maximum 512 MB and only room for 48 channels in the menu.

EmuNAND is the ability to redirect the internal storage of a Wii to another storage medium. This can either be on an SD card or a USB hard drive. The main benefit of emuNAND for Wii is that you can install your channels (WAD files) on a storage medium of your choice, instead of being limited to the console's 512 MB internal memory. And it reduces the write access to the internal flash memory which last it to live longer.

The main advantage of emuNAND over the Wii's SD card menu is that it is not tied to the console. You can plug your storage media into another homebrew-enabled console and boot from there. All saves (of WiiWare and Virtual Console games) are also stored in the emuNAND environment.

There are two different EmuNAND modes:
CIOS EmuNand : The first is performed by the cIOS redirecting some NAND file accesses to SD or USB (cIOS EmuNAND). This mode is a mix of RealNAND and EmuNAND: the system menu and console still run on realNAND, the IOS is loaded from realNAND, but file access is redirected to EmuNAND. Quitting a game simply stops file access and reloads the system menu.

NEEK Emunand : The second is performed by Neek, which completely redirects ALL console and chipset access to SD or USB (NEEK). NEEK mode is a reboot of the console in a full redirection mode. Everything is loaded from the EmuNAND path: the system menu, the IOS, the settings, etc. The console does not know that it is in the process of redirecting, since the IOS are not redirecting anything and all official IOS are used instead of cIOS for loading games . The SD card and USB device are locked and cannot be used (no homebrew or forwarder access).

cIOS EmuNAND is very simple and easy to set up. It boots faster and gets you back to the loader quickly. The downside is that it's not 100% game compatible. Mainly N64 games and some Wiiware games don't work. Setting up Neek is a bit more complicated and requires a few extra steps to create the necessary files responsible for NAND redirection. Both cIOS and Neek emuNAND can use the same emuNAND dump, so it's easy to switch from one to the other.

 

[clandestine]

Thank you. Very helpful.

 

[clandestine]

dumping nand and launching with the neek option? why ? that's not how neek works.


if you don't have bootmii IOS installed, you can't reload to it. incomplete softmod is the problem.




neek or neek2o ?
neek2o needs a sufolder, ex: nands/pl_us/
(pl stands for Post Loader)


Modmii doesn't modify the dump.


like said above : wrong folder !


neek doesn't care about cIOS.



I don't really understand why it feels so hard to do something that actually require 2 steps...
but everybody tries to do it their own ways, without knowing what they are doing and thinking that is the way to do things.

FIRST :
What do you want neek for? are you sure neek is what you really need? don't use it by default, this is wrong. If what you want to to launch channels, there are SO MUCH EASIER methods.
emuNAND and NEEK are different things !
to use neek, you need BOTH a working emuNAND dump AND neek files. there is no such "neek dump" or "neek emunand". neek is not part of the NAND dump.

To use neek, it's as easy as two steps:
1. make a NAND dump from your console
2. generate neek files, put them on the same partition where you placed your NAND dump
DONE !
2 steps. really. if you get stuck, you did something wrong.


hints:
use USBLoaderGX 1271
use nands/01/ as default path
hmm, that's all I guess.


for the extended guide, here it is :
https://gbatemp.net/posts/6592730
it's old, outdated and mixed with different guides written at different time, requiring different things.
try to mix all, up to get 2 steps I described above.

DO NOT use nswitch to launch neek, use USBLoaderGX's neek option. you won't need bootmii IOS, and won't get stuck there.

I'm following this guide and can't get neek to boot from USB Loader GX. Created nand dump in USB Loader GX to nands/01 as you state. I am using latest version of USB Loader GX. Generated the neek files using Modmii. Option 1, UNeek+DI, no optional software, default paths, etc. Copied the sneek files to USB. I installed the wad you said to emunand using USB Loaders wad installer.

I'm trying to launch into neek system menu via USB Loader GX and it just hangs on a black screen. The extended guide linked said it will take a while, but I've waited 10+ minutes and just black.... Am I not waiting long enough? Did I miss something obvious?

I just want to be able to run N64 games from my emunand in USB Loader GX so I no longer have to rely on sysmenu and patched ios80.

Thank you.

 

[Cyan]

it takes longer if you have a lot of titles installed (channels, wad, etc.), it shouldn't take more than one minute if it's a clean nand from modmii. and it should not be very long if it's your own sysNAND dump as it already has all the needed files.

if you want N64 games, you can also try to install a cIOS rev11 with base38 (in slot248 for example), and set that slot for N64's individual game settings.
No guarantee, but it's always a faster and easier method than using neek.

 

[clandestine]

it takes longer if you have a lot of titles installed (channels, wad, etc.), it shouldn't take more than one minute if it's a clean nand from modmii. and it should not be very long if it's your own sysNAND dump as it already has all the needed files.

if you want N64 games, you can also try to install a cIOS rev11 with base38 (in slot248 for example), and set that slot for N64's individual game settings.
No guarantee, but it's always a faster and easier method than using neek.

Sounds like a plan. Decided to look at the emunand compatibility list and it looks like most the N64 games have

it takes longer if you have a lot of titles installed (channels, wad, etc.), it shouldn't take more than one minute if it's a clean nand from modmii. and it should not be very long if it's your own sysNAND dump as it already has all the needed files.

if you want N64 games, you can also try to install a cIOS rev11 with base38 (in slot248 for example), and set that slot for N64's individual game settings.
No guarantee, but it's always a faster and easier method than using neek.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me. Your posts and time and effort have been tremendously helpful! So please know... Your efforts do not go unappreciated. I love what I've been able to do with my white rectangular box that is now pushing 20 years old even though the DVD drive is busted!

I am actually looking at the compatibility list and it is looking as if I won't need Neek after all. Although I'm still perplexed as to what I'm doing wrong.

https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/Wii_cIOS_EmuNAND_Compatibility_List

It looks like most N64 games are green for a different d2x version and that rev11 isn't even listed anywhere on the document. Why do you call 11 out specifically? Is it known to be super compatible? For my own curiosity? Why is this? Why do later versions lose compatibility but retain it for other software on the console? (Main Wii titles, wiiware, etc.)

Furthermore, if we have such almost 100% compatibility using stock emunand, would you say that neel is pretty much becoming obsolete or at least a very niche use case for most people?


Thanks again.

 

[Cyan]

I said 11 because it's the latest release.
11 is just 10 with some bugfixes (riiconnect enabled by default, emuNAND compatible with Ustealth drives, etc.)

It's not listed in the wiki because nobody updated the page (it's a relatively new release )
but it shouldn't be required, as now we undertstand better how cIOS are working, compatibility is not based on the cIOS version, but on its "base".
The list is kind of wrong, and should be based on IOS BASE, instead of IOS rev, like the Wii game compatibility list (Call of Duty needing an IOS base57 etc. and N64 games needing an IOS base38 or ANOTHER one! just test)


N64 game are green on the old cIOS revision column, because the old cIOS rev17 used base38 by default. There were no possibility to choose the IOS base at that time.
Since cIOS rev18, the user can choose its own IOS Base, and the default was decided (by a lot of user's tries) that cIOS based on IOS56 has better game compatibility. Some games crashed when NOT using 56, or 57, so Base38 was abandonned in all hacking guides.
But, N64 games still need to run on IOS Base 38, you just need to install that BASE IOS, using your latest cIOS (currently rev11b1), AND go to the loader> game > game's individual settings for THAT N64 game > change the IOS slot to use for this game, instead of 249 (where you have a cIOS based on IOS56) to the slot where you installed your cIOS based on IOS38.

Why do later versions lose compatibility but retain it for other software on the console? (Main Wii titles, wiiware, etc.)

This is the way the Wii is working.
There is no "firmware" that all the system is based on, and apps using.
instead, there are a LOT of different "hardware/software bridges", the IOS.
each APP/games/system is set to use a specific version of these IOS, like Zelda twilight princess is using IOS9, and even today if you put the Zelda game disc in your drive, it will use IOS9 !
It's a way to prevent compatibility issues. games are designed to work around a specific version of the hardware layer, for a specific version of the used SDK etc.

Some games might not be compatible with other IOS version, because they are using a different SDK, a different working function (if you understand programation, see it like a function with different arguments).

For example, the IOS9 might have a function like this :
read_file(path, attribute)
and Zelda using all its command to load files like : read_file("disc/kokiri/tree_map.tex", read_only);

All is good, the game CD has all the content burned on it, and the "read_file" command ask for 2 arguments, the path and the file attribute.
What's on the disc CANNOT be changed !

Then Nintendo think "the argument for the attribute is useless, let's remove it and change the IOS to this function for newer games : read_file(path)"
But the old already release games would still request 2 arguments, but the new IOS would not match, and the game doesn't work...
(I know it's possible to make different function with the same name based on argument length or type, it's not the purpose of this example )


They would have either need to release game updates from the internet (not ideal in 2004, people didn't have fiber, or even internet itself), need a lot of internal space to store all the game updates, etc. (Wii is only 512Mb !)
Instead of a single firmware, they went on a system where each game use its own specific driver.

Zelda use the driver it was designed for (IOS9), and always will.
N64 games use specific ones too (IOS38, IOS36, IOS53), etc.
Some games need IOS58 for USB accessories (NFC portals, microphone, guitar, etc.)
Call of Duty needs IOS57 (which certainly contain specific functions that other IOS don't have)
Dragon Quest 10 requires IOS59 (which contains external HDD encryption functions, and other games don't need it)

Furthermore, if we have such almost 100% compatibility using stock emunand, would you say that neel is pretty much becoming obsolete or at least a very niche use case for most people?

Yes.

Neek was not developed to make game work.
It was developed to demonstrate it was possible to redirect all the NAND chipset access to an external copy of it. it was one of the first "emuNAND" for consoles, even though the name is wrong, it's more a redirected NAND. (it was called RedNAND on 3DS)

Neek can redirect a full clean NAND copy, without any hack on it, and make it run like if the console wasn't hacked.
being a fully redirected NAND, it can appear "clean" to games and to the system, even though there's a low level process doing its magic.
It doesn't need cIOS to redirect file access on a IOS based function (used by apps to access files on NAND or disc), etc.. and therefore, launching games on neek appear like if they are running on an official unhacked system.
If games have "antipiracy detection", neek is perfect to bypass them, and it was used by people for this purpose.
Though, anti-neek would have been very easy to setup by nintendo or developers, as homebrew can detect it with a single simple command: just look if you have SD access and neek files are present

It was also used by people who didn't understand how to setup their hack, and felt like an easier way to use neek instead of "searching how to properly hack their console, and why a game is not working".
it doesn't work ? why waste my time understanding why and fix it ? let's just use neek !

But a solution is highly possible without neek
You just need to spend time and try different things.
It can happen in the form of patches (Metafortress antipiracy protection, BCA patches for Mario, Prince of Persia, some of them are included directly in the loader's internal sources), or using a specific IOS base (N64).
Some games still haven't been fixed because nobody care to look for a fix (Castlevania rebith, for example). in that case, Neek is still the solution. There are also games not working with cIOS based emuNAND redirection (enabling emuNAND save for Zelda Skyward Sword, or Metroid Prime 3 will crash the game. That's also something to be fixed).




Edit:
I would be happy if you can confirm your discoveries with N64 games and IOS base you use.
even more with games not on the wiki yet

 

[clandestine]

I said 11 because it's the latest release.
11 is just 10 with some bugfixes (riiconnect enabled by default, emuNAND compatible with Ustealth drives, etc.)

It's not listed in the wiki because nobody updated the page (it's a relatively new release )
but it shouldn't be required, as now we undertstand better how cIOS are working, compatibility is not based on the cIOS version, but on its "base".
The list is kind of wrong, and should be based on IOS BASE, instead of IOS rev, like the Wii game compatibility list (Call of Duty needing an IOS base57 etc. and N64 games needing an IOS base38 or ANOTHER one! just test)


N64 game are green on the old cIOS revision column, because the old cIOS rev17 used base38 by default. There were no possibility to choose the IOS base at that time.
Since cIOS rev18, the user can choose its own IOS Base, and the default was decided (by a lot of user's tries) that cIOS based on IOS56 has better game compatibility. Some games crashed when NOT using 56, or 57, so Base38 was abandonned in all hacking guides.
But, N64 games still need to run on IOS Base 38, you just need to install that BASE IOS, using your latest cIOS (currently rev11b1), AND go to the loader> game > game's individual settings for THAT N64 game > change the IOS slot to use for this game, instead of 249 (where you have a cIOS based on IOS56) to the slot where you installed your cIOS based on IOS38.


This is the way the Wii is working.
There is no "firmware" that all the system is based on, and apps using.
instead, there are a LOT of different "hardware/software bridges", the IOS.
each APP/games/system is set to use a specific version of these IOS, like Zelda twilight princess is using IOS9, and even today if you put the Zelda game disc in your drive, it will use IOS9 !
It's a way to prevent compatibility issues. games are designed to work around a specific version of the hardware layer, for a specific version of the used SDK etc.

Some games might not be compatible with other IOS version, because they are using a different SDK, a different working function (if you understand programation, see it like a function with different arguments).

For example, the IOS9 might have a function like this :
read_file(path, attribute)
and Zelda using all its command to load files like : read_file("disc/kokiri/tree_map.tex", read_only);

All is good, the game CD has all the content burned on it, and the "read_file" command ask for 2 arguments, the path and the file attribute.
What's on the disc CANNOT be changed !

Then Nintendo think "the argument for the attribute is useless, let's remove it and change the IOS to this function for newer games : read_file(path)"
But the old already release games would still request 2 arguments, but the new IOS would not match, and the game doesn't work...
(I know it's possible to make different function with the same name based on argument length or type, it's not the purpose of this example )


They would have either need to release game updates from the internet (not ideal in 2004, people didn't have fiber, or even internet itself), need a lot of internal space to store all the game updates, etc. (Wii is only 512Mb !)
Instead of a single firmware, they went on a system where each game use its own specific driver.

Zelda use the driver it was designed for (IOS9), and always will.
N64 games use specific ones too (IOS38, IOS36, IOS53), etc.
Some games need IOS58 for USB accessories (NFC portals, microphone, guitar, etc.)
Call of Duty needs IOS57 (which certainly contain specific functions that other IOS don't have)
Dragon Quest 10 requires IOS59 (which contains external HDD encryption functions, and other games don't need it)



Yes.

Neek was not developed to make game work.
It was developed to demonstrate it was possible to redirect all the NAND chipset access to an external copy of it. it was one of the first "emuNAND" for consoles, even though the name is wrong, it's more a redirected NAND. (it was called RedNAND on 3DS)

Neek can redirect a full clean NAND copy, without any hack on it, and make it run like if the console wasn't hacked.
being a fully redirected NAND, it can appear "clean" to games and to the system, even though there's a low level process doing its magic.
It doesn't need cIOS to redirect file access on a IOS based function (used by apps to access files on NAND or disc), etc.. and therefore, launching games on neek appear like if they are running on an official unhacked system.
If games have "antipiracy detection", neek is perfect to bypass them, and it was used by people for this purpose.
Though, anti-neek would have been very easy to setup by nintendo or developers, as homebrew can detect it with a single simple command: just look if you have SD access and neek files are present

It was also used by people who didn't understand how to setup their hack, and felt like an easier way to use neek instead of "searching how to properly hack their console, and why a game is not working".
it doesn't work ? why waste my time understanding why and fix it ? let's just use neek !

But a solution is highly possible without neek
You just need to spend time and try different things.
It can happen in the form of patches (Metafortress antipiracy protection, BCA patches for Mario, Prince of Persia, some of them are included directly in the loader's internal sources), or using a specific IOS base (N64).
Some games still haven't been fixed because nobody care to look for a fix (Castlevania rebith, for example). in that case, Neek is still the solution. There are also games not working with cIOS based emuNAND redirection (enabling emuNAND save for Zelda Skyward Sword, or Metroid Prime 3 will crash the game. That's also something to be fixed).




Edit:
I would be happy if you can confirm your discoveries with N64 games and IOS base you use.
even more with games not on the wiki yet

Thanks so much for typing that up for me. I've often gone through guides to get all this homebrew software working for my own gaming pleasure... (and honestly just because modding consoles is cool. I don't even play it when its finished half the time lol) But of course, it's nothing compared to the programming and detective work to figure out the system architecture that you guys are doing to actually get the software working in the first place. I knew bits and pieces of how this all worked, but a lot of it was left to my own assumption where I filled in gaps (some of it correct, some of it incorrect). Of course, the nature of this kind of thing is that the truth behind it exists in bits and pieces on forums, wikis, webpages, etc., but you definitely helped me understand much better. So thank you. I am a curious individual and that satisfied my curiosity that I've had on this topic for a long time. I work in a technical field, but not as a programmer. I have a cursory understanding of this kind of stuff.

I originally modded my console years ago but revised my setup to be consistent with wiihacks.guide somewhat recently (figured it's easy to conform to a standard), so currently my Slot 251 has Base IOS38. Seems like that should be the one most N64 games respond well to based on your post. I see you mention IOS36, IOS53 for certain N64 too. So it looks like I'm going to have to install those on some empty slots and get testing?

Are there any other known ones I should look out for?

Already I had a bunch of games just launch on my default iOS (I believe 249 with a base of 57) and start, although I didn't test them super thoroughly and was surprised by the number that were working since I was given the conventional knowledge on these forums that "N64 games needed need to launch in emunand".

Thanks again dude.

 

[godreborn]

Thanks so much for typing that up for me. I've often gone through guides to get all this homebrew software working for my own gaming pleasure... (and honestly just because modding consoles is cool. I don't even play it when its finished half the time lol) But of course, it's nothing compared to the programming and detective work to figure out the system architecture that you guys are doing to actually get the software working in the first place. I knew bits and pieces of how this all worked, but a lot of it was left to my own assumption where I filled in gaps (some of it correct, some of it incorrect). Of course, the nature of this kind of thing is that the truth behind it exists in bits and pieces on forums, wikis, webpages, etc., but you definitely helped me understand much better. So thank you. I am a curious individual and that satisfied my curiosity that I've had on this topic for a long time. I work in a technical field, but not as a programmer. I have a cursory understanding of this kind of stuff.

I originally modded my console years ago but revised my setup to be consistent with wiihacks.guide somewhat recently (figured it's easy to conform to a standard), so currently my Slot 251 has Base IOS38. Seems like that should be the one most N64 games respond well to based on your post. I see you mention IOS36, IOS53 for certain N64 too. So it looks like I'm going to have to install those on some empty slots and get testing?

Are there any other known ones I should look out for?

Already I had a bunch of games just launch on my default iOS (I believe 249 with a base of 57) and start, although I didn't test them super thoroughly and was surprised by the number that were working since I was given the conventional knowledge on these forums that "N64 games needed need to launch in emunand".

Thanks again dude.

afaik, emunand and sysnand have the same compatibility unless using neek. some games, like castlevania adventure rebirth, require neek or they black screen at some point iirc.