ROM Hack Nanashi no Game

[summvs]

All these arguments are surely a sign that people are passionate about seeing this thing come out. I'd like to respond to some concerns.

This game is short, especially by comparison to Mother 3 or any Dragon Quest. It really was 100% translated at the time we said it was. The fact that it is taking so much time since then to get it done is an indication of the fact that most of the work in localisation is not in the initial translation phase. This is why games take time to be released in the West when being localised officially, even at companies with lots of resources. Localising a game essentially amounts to hacking it and making a new version of it for each language, and that process is time-consuming and tedious.

While the game had apparently been called impossible to hack in the past, it obviously isn't impossible, but it is hard and that is the bulk of the work being undertaken at the moment. Here is a sample of the kind of updates on this work that have not been posted publicly:

"Turned the 3 bin files into a PNG image. A tool for the reverse process will be coming up next"
"Program to convert the pngs back into bins (only palette and image data)."
"CONTINUE was 1 pixel off."

While there may be some people who would still want to see this kind of update, I don't really think it would have made a huge difference. Rest assured that work is being done to ensure that the first release is not sloppy or buggy. Screenshots could be released of more or less any part of the game at this stage, and that would no doubt whet people's appetites, but as it only has about five to six hours of gameplay on a first playthrough, I think it will be better to keep things under wraps until the game is in people's hands and systems. Think of how some game companies use blogs, websites and constant updates, and some don't. Seeing more information about a game is one way to get excited about it, but perhaps not having anything revealed until the last moment is another.

I believe the decision to document the process of a fan translation is one to be made on a project-by-project basis. The game being translated needs to warrant such documentation, and the people involved need to have the time, resources and will. For my part, I have a full-time job and an active social life that does not usually involve spending my free time doing the same kind of thing I do at work. I was able to complete the initial translation over the course of a week's vacation that happened to coincide with my discovering this project. I see from the thread and the project updates I receive via SVN that Nagato is beavering away on the code stuff, and has also been affected by a hurricane. I don't believe it to be incredibly remiss of either of us not to provide a steady stream of updates before we at least have a fully stable, patched translation that we are satisfied with. For my part, I'm just not a blogger, though I have nothing but kudos to offer those who are, and who use blogs as a means to keep eager players-in-waiting excited about a project.

As for my insistence that the game not be turned over to a sort of crowdsourced QA team: I'm not saying no checking is going to be necessary, or will not be performed. I assume that the most stable patch Nagato can produce will be playtested by some people who can volunteer their time, and they will report issues they find. I just think there needs to be someone who can take on board all the suggestions and filter out the good from the bad, and the viable from the unrealistic but well-intentioned. The original translator is surely a good person to do this, as they are intimately familiar with the text. It's always exciting and satisfying to get that kind of input, and anyone who would refuse to change their precious text just because they can't admit that someone has a good idea for how to improve it wouldn't get far in the world of professional translation, and wouldn't have many allies in the fan translation sphere either.

Of course, they need to be trusted not to let their ego get in the way of making good changes, and in the absence of any previous fan translations to my name, all I can do is try to assure anyone with doubts to the contrary that my wish to keep control of things is only because I don't want any well-meaning Japanese 101 anime fan with a Wordtank and time to kill to have access to the text and start changing words back into Japanese in a 'keikaku means plan' fashion, or shoehorning in references that they think are clever. I am definitely looking forward to revisiting the text with some distance from the initial translation and taking on suggestions.

This forum represents a meeting of many impressive minds. I don't even understand half the stuff Nagato does, as I'm not a programmer, but his wizardry is slowly but surely getting the game into shape. Ryusui has graphics editing skills that are producing some very nice, atmospheric work, true to the spirit of the original game, and which will allow players to forget (as much as is possible) that they are not playing a commercial product. Those who are following this thread (or, indeed, who are even members of a forum like this in the first place) single themselves out from the average gamer with their interest in homebrew, hacking and translation of unreleased games, and so by definition they will be more passionate than the average Gamestop shopper. That passion can be a wonderful, positive thing, but it can also lead to disagreements and flame wars.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll wrap up. I hope everyone following the project can wait for the next updates, which are coming but will only be made when there is something genuinely exciting to be said: the first full patch has been released, people are playtesting it, adjustments and improvements are being made, and so on. Those things are coming, and I sincerely hope people can enjoy the fruits of our labours as soon as possible, but I also hope they can bear with us in the meantime, and try and use the current radio silence as a means to increase anticipation rather than frustration.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Issac]

I would love to be wrong about it being a low-quality translation, but so far there has not been any evidence to that effect, and therein lay one of the root problems. That's all, really.

Nor is there any evidence to the contrary, other than the speed with which it was completed. I refer you to post 205 for my thoughts on that.

Your arrogance defies belief. You have no idea who the team are, or what standard of work they are capable of, yet you automatically assume you could do better? And you call people out on obvious typographical errors? Who are you? What are your qualifications? Where do you work?

If the abomination of a website you linked to in post 290 is indicative of the standard of work you are happy to associate yourself with then the less you have to do with this the better.

Can this arrogant imbecile be banned before he derails a good thread, and project, further than he already has?

Sorry, but if you're too lazy to right click words that are even highlighted for you and choose the right spelling, you really have no business insulting others.


QUOTE

Nor is there any evidence to the contrary, other than the speed with which it was completed.

There actually is, from what has been posted, which is the entire goddamn point I've been trying to make. For Christ's sake, get some reading comprehension.

First: You complain that duckmouth can't spell (or use the spell checker) yet when I proof read his post, there were 0 errors. also, copied it into msword, which also found 0 errors.

Second: Please show us exactly what is low quality then. All you've basically said is that "There aren't enough pictures for me, so therefore it's low quality because I can't see the work that has been done", at least, that's what you've made it sound like.
And that telefang project page, okay, they've posted update information, and released a bunch of incomplete patches? I, and several others, would rather wait for the complete patch, instead.
Sure they could easily just post the svn-logs here, but it wouldn't be interesting. We wouldn't gain anything from it.

EDIT: Great read summvs!

 

[duckmouth]

There actually is, from what has been posted, which is the entire goddamn point I've been trying to make. For Christ's sake, get some reading comprehension.

Where? You are just being pissy because your crap-looking font got rejected out of hand. Do everyone a favour and take your superiority complex elsewhere.

Edit: Just read summv's post, excellent stuff. Xkeeper does not deserve to have such a dignified response. I hope that, reading your post, something inside him clicks and perhaps he will realise he has been a dick up until now. Sadly, he is more likely to try to nit-pick about spelling or grammar.

Xkeeper, why not man up, apologise for your behaviour so far, and keep any criticism/observations you have for after the game is released and you are in a position to actually pass comment?

 

[Xkeeper]

A post that doesn't insult anybody or automatically assume that any differing opinion is hostile! Jesus Christ I thought I'd never see the day.

First: You complain that duckmouth can't spell (or use the spell checker) yet when I proof read his post, there were 0 errors. also, copied it into msword, which also found 0 errors.

Second: Please show us exactly what is low quality then. All you've basically said is that "There aren't enough pictures for me, so therefore it's low quality because I can't see the work that has been done", at least, that's what you've made it sound like.
And that telefang project page, okay, they've posted update information, and released a bunch of incomplete patches? I, and several others, would rather wait for the complete patch, instead.
Sure they could easily just post the svn-logs here, but it wouldn't be interesting. We wouldn't gain anything from it.
I guess I should've made it obvious that when I said "you" in that post I was referring to others, much like how one would speak to a large group. I know there were no errors in his post. There were errors in other posts. That was the point.

As for that page, you can click through to see all of the individual text, including some bits of context, the original and translated versions side by side, and much more. The link was to the main page.

When it comes to showing what is low quality... well, I don't want to spoil the surprise, I guess. If we're all withholding information, I see no real reason to come out with what I detail. It's easy to interpret it as a cop-out, but when it has been made known by you and several other combative users, I have no reason nor desire to share further suggestions or observations.

Of course, they need to be trusted not to let their ego get in the way of making good changes, and in the absence of any previous fan translations to my name, all I can do is try to assure anyone with doubts to the contrary that my wish to keep control of things is only because I don't want any well-meaning Japanese 101 anime fan with a Wordtank and time to kill to have access to the text and start changing words back into Japanese in a 'keikaku means plan' fashion, or shoehorning in references that they think are clever. I am definitely looking forward to revisiting the text with some distance from the initial translation and taking on suggestions.

Though for you, I will mention that this game, again, has a lot of wordplay going on inside of it. There are several double- and triple-meaning phrases; for example, even the title of the game itself is this way (nana = 7 / 77, shi = 4), which becomes important in other parts of the game, not to mention the other interpretation (nana = 7, shi = death; a game that kills after 7 days).

This is just one of many instances of this sort of thing in the series. The Let's Play could get away with using subtitles for these things, to further explain them, but this hack won't have that luxury. (I have seen it done that way inside a game itself and it is a very, very bad idea.)

It is nice to be able to discuss this without a band of hostile idiots for a change, though.






QUOTE(duckmouth @ Sep 4 2011, 01:32 AM)

Where? You are just being pissy because your crap-looking font got rejected out of hand. Do everyone a favour and take your superiority complex elsewhere.

The only people who mentioned my font outside of my first and second posts have been you folks. Maybe one day you should turn your brain on (assuming there is one up there, it's hard to tell) and realize that the only people making a big deal out of the font are... you.

One can dream.

 

[Densetsu]

I can understand why some would want to see progress on the game. ROM translation projects unfortunately have a tendency to go under and not get finished due to various reasons. Those that do get completed, either are simple menu translations or are half-ass translations. Regardless of the way the translation is handled, if those involved in the project choose not to divulge every little aspect of what's going on behind the scenes, that's their prerogative. There's no need to tell them how to do their work, because they're just doing something that they like to do and aren't getting paid for it.

People may throw around the word "professionalism" and how translation projects should be done more professionally, but what does "professional" mean? Does XSEED provide up-to-the-minute updates about what they're doing with the games they translate? If not, are they any less professional for not doing so? And if they do provide such updates, should smaller projects such as this one be expected to emulate a game-translating company that actually makes money doing what they do?

ROM translation is a hobby, not a profession. People shouldn't be told how to do their hobbies.

And not to direct this post at anyone in particular, but if we could please stop calling each other idiots and get back on topic, that would be gravy. I don't want to have to start raising warning levels. Thanks, guys

 

[Nujui]

Xkeeper made some good points, all he asked was to see more progress so that he and maybe others could point out any possible flaws, which is a good thing, but for some reason all it's cause is people arguing.

I wouldn't mind seeing more either, but it's the authors decision. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

 

[duckmouth]

Xkeeper made some good points, all he asked was to see more progress so that he and maybe others could point out any possible flaws, which is a good thing, but for some reason all it's cause is people arguing.

I wouldn't mind seeing more either, but it's the authors decision. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

I'm quite sure that a polite request to see more progress, and understanding acceptance of the decision not to provide a progress report, would have been the end of the matter. Xkeeper's condescending, entitled manner ensured that arguments would ensue.

This is the last I will say on Xkeeper. I never, ever get involved in online arguments, but he seriously rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Issac]

A post that doesn't insult anybody or automatically assume that any differing opinion is hostile! Jesus Christ I thought I'd never see the day.


And all I've seen from You except from the first post, is hostility.

First: You complain that duckmouth can't spell (or use the spell checker) yet when I proof read his post, there were 0 errors. also, copied it into msword, which also found 0 errors.

Second: Please show us exactly what is low quality then. All you've basically said is that "There aren't enough pictures for me, so therefore it's low quality because I can't see the work that has been done", at least, that's what you've made it sound like.
And that telefang project page, okay, they've posted update information, and released a bunch of incomplete patches? I, and several others, would rather wait for the complete patch, instead.
Sure they could easily just post the svn-logs here, but it wouldn't be interesting. We wouldn't gain anything from it.
I guess I should've made it obvious that when I said "you" in that post I was referring to others, much like how one would speak to a large group. I know there were no errors in his post. There were errors in other posts. That was the point.

Ah, I hope You understand why I thought what I did, when you quote a post of his, and say what I percieved as "if you can't spell you have no right to argue". I thought of that response as a response to the post You were quoting.

As for that page, you can click through to see all of the individual text, including some bits of context, the original and translated versions side by side, and much more. The link was to the main page.

When it comes to showing what is low quality... well, I don't want to spoil the surprise, I guess. If we're all withholding information, I see no real reason to come out with what I detail. It's easy to interpret it as a cop-out, but when it has been made known by you and several other combative users, I have no reason nor desire to share further suggestions or observations.
In this case, You say "you and several other combative users" so I assume that it's pointing directly at me. And why am I combative? Well, because You've said that it'd be low quality, just because the project isn't a public one, where everyone and his grandmother can contribute to the translation. All I've done is taking them in defence, saying that I believe it will be of great quality, because I trust the guys working on this. Then, when you continue rambling about how poor this translation is going to be, I do get right out mad. Because I would like to see the evidence, and details you speak of, why it will be bad. If you did, maybe we could understand what makes this project so bad. Because as of now, I have not seen anything of low quality.

Though for you, I will mention that this game, again, has a lot of wordplay going on inside of it. There are several double- and triple-meaning phrases; for example, even the title of the game itself is this way (nana = 7 / 77, shi = 4), which becomes important in other parts of the game, not to mention the other interpretation (nana = 7, shi = death; a game that kills after 7 days).

This is just one of many instances of this sort of thing in the series. The Let's Play could get away with using subtitles for these things, to further explain them, but this hack won't have that luxury. (I have seen it done that way inside a game itself and it is a very, very bad idea.)

It is nice to be able to discuss this without a band of hostile idiots for a change, though.

Again, why don't You think that the translator(s) don't know about this wordplay? I am sure they haven't translated it all using Google Translate, and I trust they know enough Japanese about this kind of wordplay. I haven't seen any "evidence" that they do know it, but neither have I seen otherwise. Again, I trust them.

QUOTE(duckmouth @ Sep 4 2011, 01:32 AM)

Where? You are just being pissy because your crap-looking font got rejected out of hand. Do everyone a favour and take your superiority complex elsewhere.

The only people who mentioned my font outside of my first and second posts have been you folks. Maybe one day you should turn your brain on (assuming there is one up there, it's hard to tell) and realize that the only people making a big deal out of the font are... you.

One can dream.

This may be true, that you haven't talked about it. However, you turned hostile as soon as they refused it. And also you say how a DQ/FF font wouldn't fit... But hey, it is an 8-bit RPG from square enix, who as seperate companies made DQ and FF... I think it would fit the best, actually. Just to get that old school feeling from OUR NES-days. That is my oppinion, and I guess more people agree with me on that one, but it doesn't matter. The thing is that you after that started attacking why it isn't public, why the tools aren't available to all, that the translators will be stupid and don't know wordplays, etc. That's when I turned hostile towards you, yet never called you an idiot. and that, my friend, did you call me. right off the bat. Which leads me to the following quote:

QUOTE(Xkeeper @ Sep 4 2011, 02:00 AM)

Also, let it be shown that I was not the first one to use the word "idiot" here, so please remember to only bite off what you can chew, and do not cry fowl when someone uses your words against you. See the following quote.
QUOTE

Well, guess what. NOBODY CARES WHAT YOU WANT. Stop bitching around if you don't even care about playing the game. I mean, why the fuck do you visit this thread then? To take a look at pictures of the progress? What for?! So you can steal work or what.
You know, it's funny how there are always idiots annoying persons like you, making demands, wanting translation teams to work like you want and probably killing the whole project with your attitude. Oh wait, who am I telling, I mean it's not like you actually care, right?

Why yes, yes it was. You called ME an idiot in the first response to me. You were the first to use that word. Congratulations.

EDIT: I guess I'll bury my war axe now, I've been a member for over 7 years here without a warning, and won't let this argument (caused by You) lower my standards.

 

[Sora de Eclaune]

especially for people who HAVEN'T played the game and don't want any more spoilers

Almost every image so far has been posted inside of spoiler tags

Not all of them. If you go back and take a gander, you'll find at least 2 or 3 images that aren't in spoiler tags.

 

[oxenh]

i been watching this thread quietly and frankly i would never post anything until i see the translation finished, but reading all the post before i think i should say a few things:

1-this is a FREE translation made for a group of peoples that waste their own free time in this
2-if they prefer no to post update is their way to create anticipation
3-if another people claims to do the thing better that the current proyect, then try to do this alone figure out how to hack the images and the front, etc

i really trust in the people working in this translation and my intention is not to create a flame war of any kind

peace people!!

(also maybe i have a few grammal errors XD)

oxenh switch off!!

 

[coolness]

lol nice flame thread

and what nanashi no game while be translated?
because there are 2 games of it

 

[ryu15]

How is a discussion of the translation not on track, unless your definition is simply heaping on nothing but praise, damned be anybody who disagrees?
I think your pal from Tulunk answered for you few posts earlier

Neither the translation nor the work on it is being criticized; it's the stance the creators take.
It's painful to see that discussion went further than 2 posts. All that should have been said is:
Question/suggestion: How about you make the translation more public?
Person in charge of it: No.
Any further arguing is futile, creates unneeded commotion and won't make anything better. As you can't access the material in need, you can't criticise, and if you're not criticising anything you're off topic and that's the end of line for you I'm afraid.

Xkeeper

God forbid someone says something about it, everybody here gets their panties in a knot and throws a temper tantrum because their local deity of translating/hacking's obviously mastered skills were called into question.

That's just the way the things are here I guess. You can laugh, you can get mad, or you can feel sorry, but it's the result of many translation groups abandoning their work because of jerk comments and negative responses. I'm not saying yours is like that, but again it's redundant and for people who want that translation badly you're an eyesore. And it's not a valuable point if you're only one that has problem with that. I mean you can always review the work after it's done. It's not like the world will end, because some wordplays were lost. I know very well it's not fair (although I have no problems with that) but you know the saying "When in Rome..."

And comparing fan translation to crappy bootleg was very shitty of you : ( And yet you're suprised when being labeled as "hostile". Seriously... what the hell man?

 

[Issac]

lol nice flame thread

and what nanashi no game while be translated?
because there are 2 games of it

It's the first one

And if we're lucky they'll jump onto the second one as well (IIRC they discussed some parts of it atleast).

 

[Xkeeper]

And all I've seen from You except from the first post, is hostility.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because you have the critical thinking skills of a gnat.

For reference, here is my first post:
QUOTE(Xkeeper @ Sep 3 2011, 02:20 AM) Whoever said it was impossible was an idiot, and that should be obvious. Even with no ARM knowledge it was obvious at a glance how the text worked, so it would have just been a matter of fixing it. Good job on hacking in VWF support and building the tools, seems impressive.

I also made a sample of a potential font for the RPG sections, hand-designed over the last hour or so.

It's loosely based on an internal font from the first game:
image

Here is the font I designed. It's a 200%-sized PNG, but I drew it as a 2bbp CHR file that you can easily convert to the 4bbp format DS games use (probably). If you're interested I'll upload it later.
image

It tries to be somewhat consistent with the graphics from the first and second games; none of the graphics there are 2x1-brushed, so these aren't either, and there's no old-school slanty exclamation points.

It should also mesh a little better with the fonts outside of the RPG scenes as well.



More to the topic, I'm disappointed that most of the screenshots and progress information seems to be hidden behind some SVN somewhere.

On second thought, wow, it really is pretty hostile! I mean with the whole polite commentary and suggestion and everything, I guess compared to endless asskissing it is pretty hostile.

 

[coolness]

lol nice flame thread

and what nanashi no game while be translated?
because there are 2 games of it

It's the first one

And if we're lucky they'll jump onto the second one as well (IIRC they discussed some parts of it atleast).

wow cool

cannot wait

 

[Nujui]

Look, I think it might be better if we just stop this. It's not going to end well.

 

[Issac]

And all I've seen from You except from the first post, is hostility.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because you have the critical thinking skills of a gnat.

For reference, here is my first post:
QUOTE(Xkeeper @ Sep 3 2011, 02:20 AM) -snip-

On second thought, wow, it really is pretty hostile! I mean with the whole polite commentary and suggestion and everything, I guess compared to endless asskissing it is pretty hostile.

Please read that quote of mine again. Where I said all EXCEPT the first post... that means "not including" the first post. disregarding the first post. not counting the first post.

Because no, your first post is not hostile. Just like I said. I said that everything else was hostile. And that's just the oppinion I have on your style of writing, your use of words, calling people idiots and otherwise just use personal attacks. It has nothing to do with my critical thinking skills or anything. And again, I find that very mean, and pointless, to attack someone at a personal level like that.

On topic: @coolness: You're not alone

 

[snapman]

I am so glad the flamewar is over, you guys!

 

[coolness]

I am so glad the flamewar is over, you guys!

its not over

they are having a break thats all xd

 

[choconado]

if you notice, the only response to this flame war that the actual team had a was a polite and well written response to concerns that people like xkeeper had.

Otherwise they're ignoring this immaturity, and apparently keeping busy.

Thanks for taking the high road guys, you get mad respect from me for it.