Homebrew N64 emulation with iPlayer/Supercard DS Two ?

[granville]

I am rather embarrassed for you people who think that high clock speed means automatic N64 emulator ability. There's more to it than that, particularly the 3D hardware capability. PC's need dedicated 3D hardware to emulate N64 at all. The minimum specs for PC's to play n64 games AT ALL decently are around 1ghz, AND requires a 3D card. I can probably play the games at around that speed, but if i don't have a 3d card, i'm out of luck. Trying to run on an integrated gpu at those low speeds will have tremendous slowdown, unplayable pretty much. I've tried too, adding in a proper gpu let me play at playable speeds.

And as for Cooltad's comment about original gameboy on an ipod nano, you're missing the point entirely. N64 is a very complicated system to emulate. To this day, there is not an n64 emulator for pc up to the high standards of SNES, NES, Genesis, or GB/GBC/GBA. Comparing it to emulating something as primitive as gameboy, or any of the 8 or 16 bit systems is foolish. It's more complicated than doing simple narrow-minded math to assume an amount of power needed for N64 emulation. Want a simple reason why clock speed is of little consequence here? Take 3 CPU's from different generations- a Celeron, a Pentium 4, and a core 2 duo. Clock them all at the same speed. Although they are technically running at identical clock frequencies, they will all perform differently from each other due to their different architectures. PSP has a mips processor, ds has arm. Even with the extra speed from iplayer/dstwo, PSP will STILL have the advantage here. Also factor in that PSP has a far more powerful 3D hardware engine.

I will say though that the ram issue is not what will hold back DK64. iPlayer/DSTWO has plenty of memory. What will hold it back is that the game is just too powerful. It only plays properly on Project64 anyways, timing issues.

Wish people would stop with the mentality that a system can emulate something because it's x-amount faster than the original system. Doesn't work like that at all and it's a foolish way to calculate the requirements for something. There's more to a system than its clock speed. Look at sega saturn, relatively low clock speed and yet an extremely hard to emulate system, considering.

 

[Rydian]

Benchmarks of processors to show granville's example.

Older Processors.
The "Intel Pentium 4" 2.26ghz processor scores 288.

Newer Processors.
The "Intel Core 2 Duo P7350" 2.00ghz processor scores 1,318.

Clock speed means shit when comparing different processor architectures.

 

[Bo Abobo]

Maybe one day DS2 (code name of the next portable) might emulate n64 emulator or ps2 emulator. You never know.

One of the many rumors for the ds2 is that it will be as powerful as a gamecube. That sounds completely ridiculous of course but one can't hope but to dream.

 

[Cooltad]

My retort to that, is that gameboy and snes emulation works fine on the gba. You are right, architexture does matter, and the one the ds uses, (correct my if i am wrong) is newer than the n64 architexture, thus, much better even at the same clock, so you did not disprove my point.

Besides, I wasn't claiming it wasn't complicated. I was setting the ultra minimum, of which is extremely hard to reach for any emulator.

Also; the ds2 will be around 1.25x powerful graphically as the psp, for the main screen, and i'd say .5x of the psp, for the other screen. I personally say that's a more fair prediction.

 

[Rydian]

the one the ds uses, (correct my if i am wrong) is newer than the n64 architexture, thus, much better

Atom and Geode say Hi.

 

[Cooltad]

the one the ds uses, (correct my if i am wrong) is newer than the n64 architexture, thus, much better

Atom and Geode say Hi.

Good point, but as it stands, I don't believe I understand arm architecture enough to say if it would be good enough or not. But, my main point being, it wouldn't be completely pointless to try to make an n64 emulator. And as for project64; project64 could be over 3x as fast as it is now, if the developers didn't become absolute morons and virtually kill the entire project with their "1.7" bullshit.

I should also note how pretty impossible n64 emulation might be without additional ram.

 

[granville]

My retort to that, is that gameboy and snes emulation works fine on the gba. You are right, architexture does matter, and the one the ds uses, (correct my if i am wrong) is newer than the n64 architexture, thus, much better even at the same clock, so you did not disprove my point.

Besides, I wasn't claiming it wasn't complicated. I was setting the ultra minimum, of which is extremely hard to reach for any emulator.

Also; the ds2 will be around 1.25x powerful graphically as the psp, for the main screen, and i'd say .5x of the psp, for the other screen. I personally say that's a more fair prediction.

Again, you're using a poor narrow-viewing of CPU architecture. Just like clock speed, newer =/= better always. It can, but that doesn't mean it is. You are correct that ARM processors are newer but that doesn't mean they are better by a rule. In this case, DSi has a considerably faster clocked processor than the N64 itself, yet the N64 still dominates it in terms of 3D handling. N64 can display far more polygons per second than the DS. The upgraded DSi specs don't make much of a difference in that respect. DS has the advantage in 2D handling though. But since most N64 games are 3D, they would really rape the DS in their unaltered form. And yes i am also including the iPlayer/DSTWO's specs here. That extra power is pure speed, not magical 3D abilities or whatever. There's something called bottlenecking in PC components. If you have a core i7 pc or whatever, it would be extremely fast, but what would it matter if you had a very very old integrated gpu. That would probably prevent you from playing any games or even emulators properly. You have power, but it's being held back by other limiting factors.

And you're STILL using multiplication to judge a system's possibilities, which is just wrong 99% of the time. You are also making shit up for the DS2, which has NOT been confirmed to be anything but "in development". Its power and features are simply rumors (about it having Gamecube power or even the earlier Tegra stuff), very unfounded rumors right now. For one, stop making wild assumptions about a system that hasn't even been announced yet, for another, stop trying to tack on wild multiplicative power judgments on technical specifications. It's never as simple as "oh this system has higher clock speed, it must be more powerful" or even "this CPU is newer, that means it's better than anything before it".

And i really don't get your comment about "project64 1.7 bullshit". What are you even talking about? Most of the processing power sucking comes from the graphics plugins actually. On a very old Pentium 3, i was able to get fullspeed on many games with a faster plugin, but my speed would drop by maybe over 80% when loading an ultra accurate plugin like Glide64. To get games to work as perfectly as possible, you need Glide64, which is a LOT slower but far more compatible than the Jabo or Rice plugins. Project64 1.7 is still in development, so if that's what you meant by it, then think again. If N64 emulation could be done better than it currently is, it would be, simple as that. It's a popular system and there's a lot of demand for it (hence why you see topics like this asking this dumb kind of question). There's another emulator in the works that is a portable one called Mupen64Plus. It's not very good though as it's far less compatible than Project64 (or even the dead 1964), I find it just as slow as either emulator, and the GUI is a big mess so far. Honestly, I see a lot of big talk from you about how you THINK N64, DS, or emulation works. But the fact is that you seem to understand very little of how it really does work. If you think n64 emulators for PC suck or whatever, i'd really like to see you prove how much better it could be in terms of speed and compatibility. I doubt you're a programmer, but if you're going to make bold statements like that, you still need some knowledge to back it up.

 

[Pliskron]

All I have to say is "no way" it's not going to happen so don't even get your hopes up. I'll be happy when there's a decent GBA and Snes emulator for he DS. I'm not very optimistic about that prospect.

 

[Ben_j]

What about Playstation emulation ? I remember I could run Psx games with my old Pentium 1 133mhz, without gpu. It was slow as hell and the 3d was all glitched but it worked

 

[overlord00]

without reading everyone elses post;
even the original XboX had troubles emulating the 64, what makes a DS capable of doing so?

further note:
what teh hell Ben_j,

It was slow as hell and the 3d was all glitched but it worked

... then it didnt work did it?

 

[granville]

What about Playstation emulation ? I remember I could run Psx games with my old Pentium 1 133mhz, without gpu. It was slow as hell and the 3d was all glitched but it worked

Now THAT might not be out of the question with the power of iPlayer/DSTWO. In fact, several months ago i spoke to Normmatt (AKAIO programmer and smart dude indeed) and he seemed to think that the DS could possibly emulate PS1 with iPlayer or DSTWO. I wouldn't count it out myself, it seems more plausible than N64, being primarily a 2D system and all. I still think it would choke at some of the 3D games though. Both N64 AND PS1 could handle more polygons per second than DS. Although, DS games tend to have less of a "shake" to them when it comes to 3D. You know, 3D games on PS1 had a sort of distortion effect to them when it comes to texturing. They'd bend a bit when the camera moves around. I think it's related to a zbuffer effect or something...

But still, this would require some intensive coding on someone's part. NOTHING is possible until it is done and has proven to be done IMO. Speculation is nothing without hard facts. For now, we should probably see how well the SNES emulator for DSTWO will run. If even it slows down after a ton of optimization, i wouldn't get your hopes up for much. Especially if it can't even play special chip games.

 

[KevinJRussell]

The biggest problem with N64 emulation isn't hardware. People still haven't managed to get Goldeneye or SSB running properly on computer N64 emulators, I doubt they'll have any better luck on any handhelds.

 

[granville]

The biggest problem with N64 emulation isn't hardware. People still haven't managed to get Goldeneye or SSB running properly on computer N64 emulators, I doubt they'll have any better luck on any handhelds.

Dunno where you've been, those two games work perfectly with the proper configurations on PC. They just require a lot of power to run properly, hence it IS hardware that is the problem. You need a really fast PC to get them to work as they are supposed to (as glitch free as possible). Fast at least compared to what you'd expect from a 14 year old system. If you couldn't get Goldeneye or Smash Bros to work properly, you're using the wrong emulators/plugins or have a shitty computer. Project64 + Glide64 can emulate most games at least 95% perfectly with good hardware. It's games like DK64 that are harder to emulate. That game had some weird timing issues for the longest time. Polygons still stick out of characters too and sometimes levels will randomly glitch and reset when climbing certain objects. Not that it isn't totally playable though. Games like Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine are better examples since that game doesn't work at all on any emulator IIRC. At this time, i'd say N64 emulation is pretty darn good. All you need is Project64 + Glide64 + a good PC. Then you're set.

 

[Rydian]

Although, DS games tend to have less of a "shake" to them when it comes to 3D. You know, 3D games on PS1 had a sort of distortion effect to them when it comes to texturing. They'd bend a bit when the camera moves around. I think it's related to a zbuffer effect or something...

AFAIK the PS1 models would "shake" because the PS1 used an inaccurate renderer that rounded/guessed values (thus points of a polygon would be in slightly different locations from one frame to the next, and that was fine because on a TV the "interpolation" disguised/hid most of it), that's part of the reason it's light on the specs... and it's part of the reason they still shake on an emulator, because it's how the hardware did it.

For anybody that wants to know how weak the DS's 3D support it, notice that in a 3D game it doesn't even apply texture filtering.

 

[Ben_j]

further note:
what teh hell Ben_j,

It was slow as hell and the 3d was all glitched but it worked

... then it didnt work did it?

Yes it did, it was playable, but slow and glitchy 3D. What I mean is that even my awfully awful Pentium 1 without a GPU could emulate Playstation. N64 emulators didn't work though.

 

[Dr.Killa]

pandora doesn't even have a n64 emulator. hell it doesn't even have an NES or other emulators like that yet, they're obsessed with challenging themselves by trying to make psp emulators, dreamcast and all that stuff

 

[Dr.Killa]

or you can go over to benheck to try to learn how to make your own portable N64, or buy one for like $600

sorry for double post if it disturbs you, i thought it would merge

 

[GUiii11]

my pc can barely do that i dont think a ds could emulate a n 64 game if it was converted to nds it could as the same way if it could be converted as a psp game * just like theory * it could be played , emulate is something more complex that simple play a game made to the original video game

 

[fearofshorts]

pandora doesn't even have a n64 emulator. hell it doesn't even have an NES or other emulators like that yet, they're obsessed with challenging themselves by trying to make psp emulators, dreamcast and all that stuff

Where have you been?
The Pandora has an N64 emulator (created by Ari64 and Adventus) which can play any non-rare (the game company behind Goldeneye) game at over fullspeed with sound and higher-than-64-resolution, and rare games at close-to-full-speed with no sound. And it's getting better.

And the Dreamcast emulator is actually coming along nicely. It can already run several games with sound (not quite fullspeed) and it is expected that it will be able to play at least 80-90% of all DC games fullspeed with sound, and most of the rest fullspeed without sound.

And yes, it does have NES, SNES, MAME, GBA, GB, GBC, all of the ataris, C64 and a whole bunch of other ones. And many devs have stated that they will work on a particular program when they get their Pandoras.

Oh, and just to brag, we have THE Exophase as a frequently-posting forum member who helps with any dev issues.

 

[fearofshorts]

my pc can barely do that i dont think a ds could emulate a n 64 game if it was converted to nds it could as the same way if it could be converted as a psp game * just like theory * it could be played , emulate is something more complex that simple play a game made to the original video game

We can't 'convert' N64 games without the orig. sorce code (it's called 'porting', btw), which we can't get for any of them and the hardware is too different to virtualise it, thus leaving us with only emulation.

But, from my experiences, it's pretty unlikely that the DS will ever get an emulator that runs many games fullspeed, with or without the SCDS2 or iPlayer.