Homebrew N64 emulation with iPlayer/Supercard DS Two ?

[Ben_j]

So, now that we'll have a flashcard with a 400mhz proc, do you think that N64 emulation could be done ? (please, don't throw rocks at me !)

 

[Jamstruth]

*throws rock*

Its unlikely, it takes a hell of a lot to emulate an N64 properly. I'm not sure whether its entirely possible or not but bear in mind that the N64 has a 120MHz processor and to emulate smoothly you need a good bit more.

I'm sure somebody else can explain better

Also : inb4flame!

 

[Pliskron]

You'll have to buy the Pandora when it comes out next month to get N64 in a handheld.

 

[raulpica]

You need at least a 350mhz platform to emulate decently N64, and even that would require a hella lot of optimizing. So aim for a 650mhz platform for nice N64 emulation.

Said that, your only chance of portable N64 would be a Pandora.

 

[Jakob95]

PSP could emulate the N64 too. And its not that slow in some games.

 

[choconado]

there's a big elephant problem in the room with n64 on the ds that noone ever focuses on. That being how the hell would you emulate the controller? There's significantly more buttons than the DS has. Hell, the analogue stick would probably not work right even.

 

[raulpica]

PSP could emulate the N64 too. And its not that slow in some games.

The few games that run decently have been optimized per-case.

 

[Ben_j]

there's a big elephant problem in the room with n64 on the ds that noone ever focuses on. That being how the hell would you emulate the controller? There's significantly more buttons than the DS has. Hell, the analogue stick would probably not work right even.

That's not that big of a problem. Most games used stick + Z + R + A, B, and 4 C buttons, so if you use the touchscreen to emulate either the stick or the C buttons (for games that use the camera) or only C-Up and C-Right (these buttons were rarely used to capital controls, they're not as reachable as A and B) it's not a problem at all.

I'd say :
L = Z
R = R
D-Pad = analog stick or C buttons
Touchscreen = analog stick or C buttons (used for camera) or C-Up and C-Right
Y = B
B = A
X = C-left
A = C-down

I didn't know about the Pandora. It doesn't look really appealing though, I'd rather get a netbook and use a controller.
But really my question was could it be done (even if the game runs at 1FPS) ? I don't really know anything about emulation and I don't know how the GBA is emulated on the iPlayer. I just thought that if the iPlayer can emulate GBA and it was not possible before, then maybe N64 emulation would be possible aswell. And maybe more flashcards with more powerful processors than the iPlayer will come out, and then it will be easier ?

 

[Pliskron]

You'd basically have to have a console on a card to run n64 on a DS. It could actually be possible in the future.

 

[gameguy95]

not in the next 5 years would be my guess

 

[DanTheManMS]

Ya know what? I'm actually going to go against what I've said in the past and say yes. Yes it could be possible. 3 major reasons:

1. One of the fastest known emulation techniques is known as dynamic recompiling. Rather than interpreting each game instruction and converting it to an instruction for the host architecture at that point, a dynamic recompiler works differently and somehow generates and compiles native machine code for the host system based on the instructions it reads from the source ROM. This, naturally, means that an emulator using a dynamic recompiler will only work for a single specific host system, or more broadly, a single processor architecture. A dynamic recompiler for x86 would have to be completely rewritten for the DS's ARM processor, for instance.

2. The SCDS2 is known to be of the same processor type as the iPlayer (MIPS architecture). The GBA emulator for the iPlayer is a port of gpSP, which uses a dynamic recompiler to compile to the MIPS processor architecture of the PSP. This emulator was further ported to the iPhone, GP2X, and Pandora, all using the same basic processor type so the dynamic recompiler still worked.

3. Following with that logic, note that there is an N64 emulator for the Pandora, also using a dynamic recompiler to get anything close to real speed. Note that this emulator was ported to run on the iPhone and, despite severe incompatibility and graphical issues, does in fact work. So in my mind, I see no reason why it couldn't be further ported to the iPlayer or SCDS2.

THAT SAID, there are still several MAJOR hurtles that would need to be overcome in order for such a port to be possible. Obviously you'd need a coder, and finding one with enough assembly experience (and enough ambition) to complete the port would be ridiculously difficult. There might be quirks about the way the iPlayer's processor handles assembly (for the iPhone port for instance, Zod could not use certain registers since the iPhone itself locked him out of them, so he had to work around this limitation). Furthermore, this specific emulator very clearly detaches the video rendering from the rest of the CPU emulation, so you might be able to get the basic CPU running but not have any video output. Only one video plugin has been ported to work on the Pandora, and it uses OpenGL ES, which I highly HIGHLY doubt the SCDS2 will have support for, so that would also be a major roadblock (note that this is one of the reasons n64iPhone only works on the 3GS, since the 3G and below don't have support for OpenGL ES and nobody's made or ported an alternate video rendering plugin).

In short, it would be difficult, and would require more time and effort than I think anyone who reads this thread is willing to sacrifice. Even at the end of it all, it probably wouldn't be playable for various reasons (speed, crashes, RAM requirements, button layout, etc). But for the first time I believe that it would be possible given the increased specs of the slot-1 cart and the fact that its processor type just so happens to be the only one that gives this a shot of being feasible.

Reeeeally hoping I got my facts straight in this post so I don't end up looking like a fool if proven wrong. >_>

 

[Ben_j]

What you said makes sense

I'm glad to see an optimistic like me !

 

[Pliskron]

Dude, the iplayer can't even get GBA emulation right. it's just not going to happen. The only serious attempt to have N64 games on a handheld is Pandora. I think they'll do it too.

 

[granville]

It's not as simple as "oh this thing has a fast clock speed, must mean it will play n64 games". PSP itself has advanced 3D hardware almost comparable to the PS2. Not just a fast processor. I should also mention that the iPlayer GBA emulator is quite slow apparently, requiring a hefty amount of frameskip or whatever. The same emulator on PSP is apparently quite fast. I don't know how optimized the iPlayer version is, but i imagine pretty optimized. At any rate, emulating GBA is much simpler than N64. Most GBA games are strictly 2D, very few have true 3D graphics. And the 3D graphics that it does have are very primitive, even more primitive than something you'd see in first-gen PS1/Saturn games.

I'm not going to say it would be impossible to emulate N64 with iPlayer or DSTWO, but i will say that you will likely never see playable speeds or even sound support. And i'm definitely saying it's unlikely that anyone would ever code such an emulator or have the ability to. Even N64 emulators for computers aren't perfect, many games remain unplayable to this day and require beast-like processors to emulate anywhere near glitch free. You have to factor in that even with upgraded specs, DS+iPlayer/DSTWO is only about 5x faster JUST in raw clock speed to N64 or so. N64 was a complex system. We'll see, i don't expect much. At most, MAYBE you'd get weak games like Mario 64 running at a max of 10fps, with no sound and a ton of graphical glitches. It's useless to even speculate that though. Until a coder comes up with something, it's a dead issue. Until one is made, it's not possible. The burden of proof lies in the existence of an emulator.

 

[spotanjo3]

Maybe one day DS2 (code name of the next portable) might emulate n64 emulator or ps2 emulator. You never know.

 

[choconado]

oh totally. Notice granville said that right now we can max things out at around 5 times the ability of the N64. IIRC, the general rule of thumb is that emulators have to have between 7 and 10 times to work right. I bet within the next decade 64-bit system emulation on handhelds will be a reality.

 

[Cooltad]

I really dislike the pure ignorance of most people, I really do.

Reality check: there is a gameboy emulator for the ipod nano 1stgen. The ipod nano has an extremely weak processor.

I have seen things emulated amazingly just fine. The gba emulator for the iplayer, is obviously not nearly as optimized as it could be, otherwise it would go at more than 100% speed easily. It's simply just do the math:
You have to multiply mhz required, by each major component that needs to be emulated.

So, for the n64, we have the cpu, controller, gpu, sound, ram. Things such as ram and controller would obviously be at a .5 multiplier since they don't take nearly as much to emulate. SO; if the n64 was 150 mhz, that is 150+150+150+75+75 = 600mhz required minimum.

That is to say, the above calculation ONLY applies if the emulator is as optimized as scriptingly possible. So don't go bashing me telling me that it can't be done. It can be done if it is optimized completely. n64 emulation will come out, as we all know there's basically an emulator for every device out there everywhere, if someone is curious or ambitious, they'll do it.

 

[Jamstruth]

N64 Specs:
93MHz CPU
62.4MHz Reality Co-Processor
4MB RAM

Also, 600MHz is quite a way off the iPlayer+DS/i specs. iPlayer is 400MHz while DS is 90MHz (if we get DSi mode make this 120MHz)

 

[Cooltad]

N64 Specs:
93MHz CPU
62.4MHz Reality Co-Processor
4MB RAM

Also, 600MHz is quite a way off the iPlayer+DS/i specs. iPlayer is 400MHz while DS is 90MHz (if we get DSi mode make this 120MHz)

In that case the mhz required:
124+93+93+93+46+46== around 500mhz minimum.

Also, the DSTWO will have a 450-500mhz processor, if I remember correctly. Also, the DS has two processors, a 90mhz, and a 60mhz if I remember right.

So, with the dstwo, even a normal ds can definitely do n64 emulation.

However...
it still depends on making the emulator 100% as optimized as possible, which is extremely hard.

However, chances are it won't be too hard to get some games running at a good speed initially. So we shall we how it comes about.
Ram would be a large issue, and thus hacks will most likely be required to get most games to run, and games such as dk64 that need extra ram won't run ever, only on dsi.

 

[Dangy]

N64 Specs:
93MHz CPU
62.4MHz Reality Co-Processor
4MB RAM

Also, 600MHz is quite a way off the iPlayer+DS/i specs. iPlayer is 400MHz while DS is 90MHz (if we get DSi mode make this 120MHz)

In that case the mhz required:
124+93+93+93+46+46== around 500mhz minimum.

Also, the DSTWO will have a 450-500mhz processor, if I remember correctly. Also, the DS has two processors, a 90mhz, and a 60mhz if I remember right.

So, with the dstwo, even a normal ds can definitely do n64 emulation.

However...
it still depends on making the emulator 100% as optimized as possible, which is extremely hard.

However, chances are it won't be too hard to get some games running at a good speed initially. So we shall we how it comes about.
Ram would be a large issue, and thus hacks will most likely be required to get most games to run, and games such as dk64 that need extra ram won't run ever, only on dsi.

What about DK64 with an E-Z Flash?