LulzSec is done

[Zetta_x]

You keep regurgitating your words and you still have yet to convince me they are not heroes. The idea of a hero is an opinion. Criminals can be heroes under the right opinion. So when you say I'm flat dead wrong, you are saying that you don't agree with my opinion.

 

[Sterling]

@The Batman topic: You do know vigilante justice is against the law right? There is a reason behind the title of "Dark Knight". Justice and a sense of morality is a form of perception. Bruce Wayne wants justice, and takes the law into his own hands. Lulzsec wants to cause havok and raise awareness. Both would get into the papers, and one might even call them opposites. In truth though they are similar, and they both do what they set out to do in the first place.

The phrase "Each to their own." Comes to mind. We all have ways of dealing with the evils of the world. Some of us laugh, some take action, and some are Lulzsec. Whether or not you agree with the heroes thing, you must fess up to knowing what you deal with. You cannot argue ignorance when you are hacked.

 

[Assax]

Maybe a rather semi-fitting comparison but I think it is a little bit like that:

LulzSec have not done anything with your files, they released them, blame the people who raged on your accounts under your name.

When Geohot released his CFW he was defended by all the CFW lovers although he paved the path for playing backups.

Thats what LulzSec did in my opinion just that they stay at the other side, costumers hate them as they were affected negatively because of the possibilities for others to log in to your account.

Geohot opened possibilities as well but they were positive for costumers so nobody blamed them.

Why blame LulzSec now?
As said I think the comparison lacks something, but its not unreasonable.

 

[DeathStrudel]

You keep regurgitating your words and you still have yet to convince me they are not heroes. The idea of a hero is an opinion. Criminals can be heroes under the right opinion. So when you say I'm flat dead wrong, you are saying that you don't agree with my opinion.

Just like somebody who is mentally retarded can be highly intelligent under the right opinion....

 

[Sterling]

@Assax: Sometimes, your word ain't good enough for people. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can tell someone they're hacked, but you can't make them act on it unless you're Batman. The moral of this story is to be careful with who you trust, because you might just get burned.

@Death Strudel: I find that highly offensive. Mentally ill people don't have a choice in the matter, while everybody is entitled to their opinions.

 

[Zetta_x]

I'm glad Sterling is also on the same lines as me. Which apparently by Granville and Guild makes you flat out wrong. Granville keeps saying things are facts but he doesn't realize that his facts are based on opinions.

I think we all agree this discussion is not converging towards an end but diverging off rails. Whether or not they were heroic is an opinion. We all have different opinions. I attempted to share your opinion and show you that there could be good from what they did. Sterling also attempted to strengthen this idea. We can see that from your opinion, we aren't going to convince you.

However, now we move onto the realm of my opinion where they are heroes. If you understood anything about my mind, you would see that it is futile to convince me otherwise that they were heroes as my first post suggested.

Nothing here is fact. What is heroic and the idea of what is heroic is entirely opinion based. I suggest we move on, it's Sunday, we all have better things to do.

---

Actually Death, I do have asperger's syndrome which does range on what people call autism. While I don't take offense (It's really hard to take offense of other people's opinions), you do make a good point.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

LulzSec have not done anything with your files, they released them, blame the people who raged on your accounts under your name.

That's like one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If someone broke into your house and then just told a bunch of burglars to have a field day, should I not get angry at the guy who broke through my locks just because he didn't steal anything? Fuck no, he still invaded my privacy and still allowed my shit to get stolen.

I think people are getting too caught up in this need to "fight the power" to actually follow or support someone who fights it justly. There's a difference between being Batman and being Magneto, if you wanted a comic book character comparison.

 

[DeathStrudel]

Actually Death, I do have asperger's syndrome which does range on what people call autism. While I don't take offense (It's really hard to take offense of other people's opinions), you do make a good point.

Did you know that people call asperger's autism unaccompanied by mental retardation?

edit: my mom's a psychologist and I have studied a bit myself so I really do know what I'm talking about btw

 

[Sterling]

LulzSec have not done anything with your files, they released them, blame the people who raged on your accounts under your name.

That's like one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If someone broke into your house and then just told a bunch of burglars to have a field day, should I not get angry at the guy who broke through my locks just because he didn't steal anything? Fuck no, he still invaded my privacy and still allowed my shit to get stolen.

I think people are getting too caught up in this need to "fight the power" to actually follow or support someone who fights it justly. There's a difference between being Batman and being Magneto, if you wanted a comic book character comparison.

You know, that comparison won't hold water. The digital locks are relatively new. The locks on your home are time tried and true apparatuses. The breaking and entering charges are also defined by law, but these are legal grey areas. Also, if your locks on your home are tied to a sensor in the front lawn, then you'll be getting the sort of lock on the internet. The weakest link is not always the end user, but is sometimes the person who installed the lock.

 

[DeathStrudel]

@Death Strudel: Please, go research some more before you make more of an ass of yourself. Also, such syndromes are not psychological. They cannot be overcome by force of will.

lol, actually you should. Some people don't even consider autism to be mental retardation.
for example
"It is quite wrong to say that the vast majority of people with autism are also mentally retarded when quite the opposite is true. It is people who are incredibly intelligent who are more susceptible to being affected by autism because they are more sensitive to toxins in the environment, which triggers autism. Autism is like a barrier, a wall making it difficult for people with autism to express themselves. When people can’t express themselves properly it is very frustrating for them and children who are affected often tantrum."

my mom is a child psychologist that has autistic client's as well as those with Asperger's. If you had ever taken a psychology class you would most likely have learned about them too

 

[Guild McCommunist]

This topic isn't about autism, get back on topic ladies.

EDIT: @Death: I do support your argument for the topic but I only removed your posts because they were off topic. I didn't want you to think I was oppressing your point of view or anything.

 

[emigre]

LulzSec have not done anything with your files, they released them, blame the people who raged on your accounts under your name.

That's like one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If someone broke into your house and then just told a bunch of burglars to have a field day, should I not get angry at the guy who broke through my locks just because he didn't steal anything? Fuck no, he still invaded my privacy and still allowed my shit to get stolen.

I think people are getting too caught up in this need to "fight the power" to actually follow or support someone who fights it justly. There's a difference between being Batman and being Magneto, if you wanted a comic book character comparison.

You know, that comparison won't hold water. The digital locks are relatively new. The locks on your home are time tried and true apparatuses. The breaking and entering charges are also defined by law, but these are legal grey areas. Also, if your locks on your home are tied to a sensor in the front lawn, then you'll be getting the sort of lock on the internet. The weakest link is not always the end user, but is sometimes the person who installed the lock.

@Death Strudel: Please, go research some more before you make more of an ass of yourself. Also, such syndromes are not psychological. They cannot be overcome by force of will.

The misuse of digital data is comparable to burglary. With burglary your possessions are likely to be misused for example they sold on the black market. With digital data, you're looking at fraud. Ultimately the results could be devastating, the idea there's someone out there who has your personal information is actually quite unnerving.

 

[Sterling]

@Emigre: Indeed it is. However, at home you are in your castle. You go onto the internet knowing that millions of users navigate around everyday. While only people you trust navigate your house daily. It is true they are comparable, but only just the effects. The emotional trauma and such cannot be simulated.

@Guild: Could you have at least waited for me to edit in some relevant points?

 

[Densetsu]

If, while you were away on a business trip, a group of armed robbers broke into your house at night while your wife and children were sleeping, robbed the house of all your valuables, and for "teh lulz" decided to tie them up and violate them before leaving, would the robbers be heroes? Would it be a much-needed kick to the ass to get stronger bolts on the doors? What if the children were sleeping with the bedroom window open? Were they stupid for making it easy for the robbers to break in?

No.

No one "deserves" to have things stolen from them and have the most private aspects of their lives violated just "because they weren't careful." LulzSec committed some heinous crimes and my deepest sympathy goes to those who were affected. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[Sterling]

@Emigre: Indeed it is. However, at home you are in your castle. You go onto the internet knowing that millions of users navigate around everyday. While only people you trust navigate your house daily. It is true they are comparable, but only just the effects. The emotional trauma and such cannot be simulated. As much as we are on the internet, the vast majority of citizens know little of the risks.

@Guild: Could you have at least waited for me to edit in some relevant points?

@Densetsu: I still don't get these two comparisons. Of course robbers would be in the wrong. They take your valuables and sell them to people who don't own them. Lulzsec did not take your valuables. Lulzsec did not sell to the highest bidder. Lulzsec gave you ample warning. It's like looking up your address on google and telling the people who want to rob that there is an open house sign.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

@Emigre: Indeed it is. However, at home you are in your castle. You go onto the internet knowing that millions of users navigate around everyday. While only people you trust navigate your house daily. It is true they are comparable, but only just the effects. The emotional trauma and such cannot be simulated. As much as we are on the internet, the vast majority of citizens know little of the risks.

@Guild: Could you have at least waited for me to edit in some relevant points?

I removed the post and you edited it just as I did so, my apologies.

 

[granville]

@Assax

Believe it or not, i am well aware of reality and DO live in it.

My basic point was in regards to LulzSec not really helping to fight the issues, but helping to fan the fire instead. They're not hacking big corporations in order to help bring down the evil people within it, they're hacking random users who have nothing to do with the people in charge for their own egos and entertainment.

LulzSec is part of the problem. Not the only problem for sure, but they aren't helping any and they're a symbol of what's wrong. They're only making it worse for the people they're hacking, not for the evil corporates who might actually deserve such a takedown. Why not kill random innocent people in a country to try to make a point to the corrupt leaders? Makes little sense, especially when we're arguing what a "hero" is (someone who protects people against tyranny and injustice).

You keep regurgitating your words and you still have yet to convince me they are not heroes. The idea of a hero is an opinion. Criminals can be heroes under the right opinion. So when you say I'm flat dead wrong, you are saying that you don't agree with my opinion.

No, i'm actually saying you're flat out wrong. One of the traditional definitions of a hero is someone who fights to protect innocent people. Unless our definitions happen to be different.

You're right though- a certain type of person can be of an opinion that villains are heroes (an opinion though, not a fact held by the rest of reality). If i were that sort of person, i could potentially try to make an argument that thieves, rapists, and murders who commit horrible atrocities are heroes. Perhaps if i raped and murdered the 4-year-old great grand daughter of any evil terrorist or tyrant, i'd be a hero. But no, that's not how reality actually works. By sane people grounded in reality, i'd be put on trial and tried as a sick child raping and murdering bastard. I'd be either sentenced to death or rot in prison for eternity. The only other option is my lawyer trying to declare me insane (big whoop), no sane person would try to make a court case that i'm a hero and that i deserve to be praised for what i did.

And in regards to LulzSec not actually making use of the hacked accounts- Not only can no one actually prove they didn't do anything with the data they collected (anonymous hackers, can you actually believe what they say?). Besides that though, the act of posting millions of passwords and confidential data online for everyone to see and them not being responsible for the hackings can be compared to the act of giving an arsonist a box of matches in a drought-strained wood. Or providing a serial killer a gun, or a child rapist a bunch of little kids. Thieves gonna steal if you directly provide them the tools and resources to do it.

Being a vigilante is illegal, but saving someone's ass from being attacked probably wouldn't end up causing many people to hate on you and call you evil. You stand a good chance of getting off if you saved someone from an evil act. Unlike stealing from random people for the lulz. Last i checked, Batman didn't steal from innocent people for fun or profit.

@Sterling

Someone still makes the choice to break the lock and enter, regardless of how strong or weak it is and how at fault the lock maker is. In the end, you'd have a case against a lock company if you found a serious fault in the lock. But you'd also have a case against the perpetrator of the break in and theft. In that case, both parties could be at fault, but the one who actually did the breaking is still the primary perpetrator for committing the crime in the first place. Nothing can change that fact. Why people can't wrap their head around that is beyond me.

 

[Assax]

LulzSec have not done anything with your files, they released them, blame the people who raged on your accounts under your name.

That's like one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If someone broke into your house and then just told a bunch of burglars to have a field day, should I not get angry at the guy who broke through my locks just because he didn't steal anything? Fuck no, he still invaded my privacy and still allowed my shit to get stolen.

I think people are getting too caught up in this need to "fight the power" to actually follow or support someone who fights it justly. There's a difference between being Batman and being Magneto, if you wanted a comic book character comparison.

I was more or less reffering to granville because he said if people like this would not exist then we would not need a kick in the ass to be more aware etc etc.
Obviously I would blame the lockpicker as well, but the ones who did more damage were the burglars.

Like someone said, it was a needed evil in order to improve our awareness.
Its a shock to anyone whose files were leaked but people need that in order to start doing something about it nowadays.

Im not even arguing that what they have done did harm people or not, it obviously did, I'm just saying that without LulzSec nobody would even care about all those security flaws.
Maybe you're right and my statement is not totally in place but how else do you get people to change bad things?

If anything changed people's behaviour then it was something bad and shocking that affected many in a negative way in order to lead to major change.

Edit:
This thread moves to fast in order to discuss about anyones opinion as much as I'd love to, which is a shame kinda =/
Until I put everything in words there are already 10 new posts that are worth a reply.

 

[Sterling]

Breaking and entering is a crime indeed. That is not what I am talking about. The very fact that Lulzsec broke the lock is indeed wrong. However, the argument that this makes them as bad as the robbers is silly. They did not do anything they did for the right reasons, but their reasons weren't wrong either. The other thing is that this is legal grey area. The law isn't as well defined as physical burglary.

@Guild: No problem. I'm glad to see you doing your duty. I'll happily edit out any OT content if asked.

 

[Densetsu]

@Densetsu: I still don't get these two comparisons. Of course robbers would be in the wrong. They take your valuables and sell them to people who don't own them. Lulzsec did not take your valuables. Lulzsec did not sell to the highest bidder. Lulzsec gave you ample warning. It's like looking up your address on google and telling the people who want to rob that there is an open house sign.

I remember reading somewhere about someone anonymously posting on Craigslist that there was a house offering everything for free. He posted the address of a random house and people came and basically looted it because someone said everything was up for grabs, and the owner came home to find it had been ransacked. I don't see how that is amusing, and I don't see how what lulzsec did was any different.

*EDIT*
I'd love to continue this discourse and provide a link to the story, but I'm literally sitting in a plane ready to take off and have to shut off my phone soon