Emulation forever.... origional hardware Never

Hungry Friend

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This is really something for blogs.

OP, if you cannot afford retro gaming then either don't or download and emulator and call it quits.
I don't see an issue with debating this issue as it's often a point of contention and both options have their advantages and disadvantages. Emulation is free, convenient and gives us all access to games that would otherwise be totally unavailable like arcade games, fan translated Japan-only titles etc. Original HW is awesome but collecting and maintaining can be very, very expensive, tedious and time consuming. I'm not a collector but I play old games via real HW and emulation and I assume most people are also in the middle like I am.

For example, if I can get an old game I want for a reasonable price either new or used but if a game is prohibitively expensive and/or rare, emulators are amazing tools to have at your disposal.

edit:

Cammygirl192 said:
I'd also rather have fixed editions of games and be able to play hacks easier, too.

Agreed. For example you can play better, less buggy versions of Final Fantasy 3/6 for the SNES via ROM hacks and there are several fan translations and total overhauls as well. Same goes for many games and some of the ROM hacks people create are straight up bad ass and even better than the originals.
 
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Hungry Friend has hit it. Emulation preserves games that could otherwise been destroyed years ago - just look at when somebody found that Street Fighter II variant cabinet in Margate when they opened Dreamland again or whatever, which was one of the only remaining copies, it was dumped by the MAME team (I think).

That was thought to have been lost for years until they found it. I wouldn't play it myself but yeah...

Here's what I'm referring to: https://www.canterbury.ac.uk/news-c...ontribute-to-the-restored-dreamland-park.aspx (changed the link)

Didn't see your edit earlier, HF. Completely right :)
 
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FAST6191

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and don't run 100% of games, so forget ... or Banjo Kazui

Kazooie has been done for years and tooie was cracked a couple of years back
http://gbatemp.net/threads/banjo-tooie-for-n64-finally-cracked.338824/
No remake for the PAL version it seems but hey, personally I would go for the XBLA remakes anyway.

Back on topic I am all about the fun. I care rather less for the experience the devs intended to give than knowing the GPS coordinates of where the banana I just ate was harvested if I can instead have some fun. Emulation has historically afforded me better controls, better graphics, some nice filters, easier hacks, easier cheats, more extensive hacks, more extensive cheats, savestates, far less investment in the process (I have a computer I can control because I need one) and the list goes on.
It might make it harder to compare opinions of games but that matters little for most things I do.
 
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Hungry Friend

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Hungry Friend has hit it. Emulation preserves games that could otherwise been destroyed years ago - just look at when somebody found that Street Fighter II variant cabinet in Margate when they opened Dreamland again or whatever, which was one of the only remaining copies, it was dumped by the MAME team (I think).

That was thought to have been lost for years until they found it. I wouldn't play it myself but yeah...

Here's what I'm referring to: https://www.canterbury.ac.uk/news-c...ontribute-to-the-restored-dreamland-park.aspx (changed the link)

Didn't see your edit earlier, HF. Completely right :)
The edit was made several minutes after my original post so it was easy to miss.

Your link also hits the nail on the head as this kinda thing would've been absolutely lost forever without MAME and other emulators, and since games are art just like other types of entertainment media, it's very important to preserve them much like preserving old films and such. As someone who mostly digs older games from the mid 80s-the early 00s, emulation is like a dream come true for me and as fast mentioned, all the additional options emulators themselves give you visually, aurally etc. just make emulation that much cooler.

While console ports of arcade games were often very good for their time back in the 80s and 90s, there's nothing like playing the actual arcade ROMs and the only thing that tops MAME is of course the actual arcade HW and occasionally official ports. Still gets me hyped when the SF2 Hyper Fighting intro plays and I see an "insert coin" prompt on screen, hear all the old CPS1 music and sounds in all their glory and while I'm going a bit OT, it's amazing how well SF2 has aged. High-end CPS1, 2, 3 as well as Neo-Geo and many sprite-based arcade games still look spectacular today. You can tell that much time and care was put into all the sprite/pixel art and some of those late NG games rival fucking CPS3 games in terms of both graphics and sound.(Metal Slug series, Garou: MOTW, Last Blade 2 are good examples)
 
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Touko White

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I particularly love the 90s generation of games because it had three of my favourite systems: the SNES, Mega Drive, and PlayStation.
I never actually owned a Mega Drive but I've played a few games from it and it seems like a very good console, although with a PS3 controller, it's a little different to actually having the proper thing.

Again I agree there's nothing like a real arcade version. (Although I can't seem to play any arcade games, because they never seem to work - always complaining there's missing ROM files or whatever)
 

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1. agree its just supply and demand, but the thing about eBay is the prices points are almost always horribly inflated,
"Guy A".. who is not a gamer and has no idea what somethings worth sets a huge buy it now and best offer, because he can afford to wait, and he is only concerned with the "Best Offers".

"Guy B" sees Guy A's auction price as the first result in a search, and assumes thats just what people are paying, Guy B also is not a gamer and doesn't want to miss the next "Cubic Ninja" cash cow, so he just follows the highest completed auctions like hes playing the stock market.

"Guy C" now sees 2 marked up auctions and sets his price $1 less than Guy B, and since he is the lowest price in a search, when he sells it to some desperate moron that result will show in Completed Listings....

and the cycle continues.... auctions just sit there in limbo for years and years at over inflated prices because of "Monkey See, Monkey Do", without actually researching if people are willing to pay that amount or not.
I completely understand. I have this discussion with friends all the time. And it's gotten to the point where I had to ask myself, why do I collect? What exactly am I searching for? Because it used to be that I just liked the excitement of the hunt. The problem with that is that you'll often feel compelled to buy a game you don't really want, SIMPLY because you know it's rare. I'm not looking to be a completionist. And I think that the idea of buying retro with the hope that it'll somehow turn into this amazing retirement investment, is a horrible mismanagment of money. Most of these retro games prices are so inflated that buyers will never see a return on their investment. A lot of these NES games are NOT rare, and when the popularity of the scene dies off, their prices will return to normal. As time passes, it'll only be us old guys that care. And for most us, a simple return to nostalgia (via emulation) will be enough.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to devalue the want or need for physical hardware. Being upset that retro is expensive is an understandable emotion, and one that I can personally sympathize with, but most of your original post comes off as a list of personal justifications, made by a collector who's slowly become bitter that his hobby is no longer financially accessable.

That's why I posted. It wasn't so much that I disagreed with your points as much as I was trying to play devils advocate. -- Those who still own all their original hardware (in working condition) can view the cost of buying a top of the line gaming PC, with usb repro's of our favorite classic controllers, as something that's too expensive. And what if they want to play on their TV from the comfort of their couch? They now have to move their PC over to their entertainment center. Not everyone owns a gaming den where everything is in one centralized location.

Personally speaking, I hate gaming on a PC. When I emulate, I do it via a modded console. It allows me the luxury of being connected to my TV. And to the benefit of the Wii, there have been a lot of retro controller adapters developed for it. Especially if the unit has GameCube compatibility. Unfortunately the con of emulating via console will always be power, and whether or not people are developing ports of successful emulators.
 
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I completely understand. I have this discussion with friends all the time. And it's gotten to the point where I had to ask myself, why do I collect? What exactly am I searching for? Because it used to be that I just liked the excitement of the hunt. The problem with that is that you'll often feel compelled to buy a game you don't really want, SIMPLY because you know it's rare. I'm not looking to be a completionist. And I think that the idea of buying retro with the hope that it'll somehow turn into this amazing retirement investment, is a horrible mismanagment of money. Most of these retro games prices are so inflated that buyers will never see a return on their investment. A lot of these NES games are NOT rare, and when the popularity of the scene dies off, their prices will return to normal. As time passes, it'll only be us old guys that care. And for most us, a simple return to nostalgia (via emulation) will be enough.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to devalue the want or need for physical hardware. Being upset that retro is expensive is an understandable emotion, and one that I can personally sympathize with, but most of your original post comes off as a list of personal justifications, made by a collector who's slowly become bitter that his hobby is no longer financially accessable.

That's why I posted. It wasn't so much that I disagreed with your points as much as I was trying to play devils advocate. -- Those who still own all their original hardware (in working condition) can view the cost of buying a top of the line gaming PC, with usb repro's of our favorite classic controllers, as something that's too expensive. And what if they want to play on their TV from the comfort of their couch? They now have to move their PC over to their entertainment center. Not everyone owns a gaming den where everything is in one centralized location.

Personally speaking, I hate gaming on a PC. When I emulate, I do it via a modded console. It allows me the luxury of being connected to my TV. And to the benefit of the Wii, there have been a lot of retro controller adapters developed for it. Especially if the unit has GameCube compatibility. Unfortunately the con of emulating via console will always be power, and whether or not people are developing ports of successful emulators.


it must have come across in the wrong way then. the availability of real games is not really a concern. the main point was that there is a huge discrepancy between Perceived Value, and Actual Value. there is no reasonable price-point anymore.

this is a good example, Zelda: Twilight Princess.

you look up the Gamecube version, $200 and up, then you look up the Wii remake, $5, $8, they cant even give them away. Now, yes people probably just hate motion controls, but that still doesn't really add up, How did they play Skyward Sword if they hate motion controls so much?, then there is the fact they would be playing GC over a Composite connection, without the polished graphics of the Wii version?, and to make it worse Nintendo already announced a New Wii-U remake, in glorious 1080p HDMI, with an improved control scheme, and exclusive levels.

So... why?. as soon as the TP WiiU announcement was made, sales of TP GC should have plummeted or at least dropped significantly, but they are still listed at $200 in fierce biding wars. this shows its only about the collection, not having the best possible game experience.

this is indicative of a larger systemic problem, on TV we have the show "hoarders", where we shame and berate people who let their obsessions get out of control, we make fun of "Preppers" who hoard emergency supplies, calling them crazy gun toting conspiracy loons. But "Completionists" go on youtube and are complimented and praised for all their hard work and dedication. is this right or wrong?, who knows, but as a society we should have open honest dialog about it.
 

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it must have come across in the wrong way then. the availability of real games is not really a concern. the main point was that there is a huge discrepancy between Perceived Value, and Actual Value. there is no reasonable price-point anymore.
The value of something is the price people are willing to pay for it. What is this "actual value" you speak of that differs from the perceived value?

this is a good example, Zelda: Twilight Princess.

you look up the Gamecube version, $200 and up, then you look up the Wii remake, $5, $8, they cant even give them away. Now, yes people probably just hate motion controls, but that still doesn't really add up, How did they play Skyward Sword if they hate motion controls so much?, then there is the fact they would be playing GC over a Composite connection, without the polished graphics of the Wii version?, and to make it worse Nintendo already announced a New Wii-U remake, in glorious 1080p HDMI, with an improved control scheme, and exclusive levels.

So... why?. as soon as the TP WiiU announcement was made, sales of TP GC should have plummeted or at least dropped significantly, but they are still listed at $200 in fierce biding wars. this shows its only about the collection, not having the best possible game experience.
$200 and up? With minimal searching, here it is for $50. So basically what it cost the day it released: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Legend-of-Z...019913?hash=item1eaccb3ec9:g:Jp0AAOSwh-1W4Pp6

That aside, why does it hold its value? Yes, the controls are a part of it. Twilight Princess on the Wii had poorly implemented waggle controls while the Gamecube had the controls that the game was develop with in mind. It doesn't compare at all to Skyward Sword which was built from the ground up with motion controls in mind and was well executed. The polished graphics of the Wii version? I don't know what polished graphics you're talking about. I guess the Wii supports widescreen. Composite connection? Gamecube games can run on the Wii's component cable just fine, and as discussed earlier, the Gamecube has its own component cable which puts out superior picture quality that would interest enthusiasts.
And not to be understated, it, like pretty much everything else in the economic market place, is ruled by the law of supply and demand. We just spoke a bit about demand, but the other part of the equation is supply. Many fewer copies of the Gamecube version were released compared to the Wii version.

this is indicative of a larger systemic problem, on TV we have the show "hoarders", where we shame and berate people who let their obsessions get out of control, we make fun of "Preppers" who hoard emergency supplies, calling them crazy gun toting conspiracy loons. But "Completionists" go on youtube and are complimented and praised for all their hard work and dedication. is this right or wrong?, who knows, but as a society we should have open honest dialog about it.
Honest dialog? Everyone's got their hobbies. Some people collect stamps. Some collect newspapers. Some collect videogames. /dialog.
 
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FAST6191

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this is indicative of a larger systemic problem, on TV we have the show "hoarders", where we shame and berate people who let their obsessions get out of control, we make fun of "Preppers" who hoard emergency supplies, calling them crazy gun toting conspiracy loons. But "Completionists" go on youtube and are complimented and praised for all their hard work and dedication. is this right or wrong?, who knows, but as a society we should have open honest dialog about it.

On the one hand to each their own, on the other I dare say youtube comments are not a good metric for reasoned discourse, or if you prefer I certainly laugh at those spending the silly money on games they might not play and are likely not of great historical or play value and have found no shortage of people to join me in berating those that would do complete collections, complete achievements, 100% games or do similar such things.
 

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The value of something is the price people are willing to pay for it. What is this "actual value" you speak of that differs from the perceived value?


$200 and up? With minimal searching, here it is for $50. So basically what it cost the day it released: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Legend-of-Z...019913?hash=item1eaccb3ec9:g:Jp0AAOSwh-1W4Pp6

That aside, why does it hold its value? Yes, the controls are a part of it. Twilight Princess on the Wii had poorly implemented waggle controls while the Gamecube had the controls that the game was develop with in mind. It doesn't compare at all to Skyward Sword which was built from the ground up with motion controls in mind and was well executed. The polished graphics of the Wii version? I don't know what polished graphics you're talking about. I guess the Wii supports widescreen. Composite connection? Gamecube games can run on the Wii's component cable just fine, and as discussed earlier, the Gamecube has its own component cable which puts out superior picture quality that would interest enthusiasts.
And not to be understated, it, like pretty much everything else in the economic market place, is ruled by the law of supply and demand. We just spoke a bit about demand, but the other part of the equation is supply. Many fewer copies of the Gamecube version were released compared to the Wii version.


Honest dialog? Everyone's got their hobbies. Some people collect stamps. Some collect newspapers. Some collect videogames. /dialog.

ah yes, a lot of that is true. what i mean by actual value is what the thing, all its individual components, is actually worth.
Like when nintendo puts up Earthbound Zero on the eShop they determine the data, the actual lines of code, are worth only $9.99. surly a lot of market research goes into finding the best price-point to maximize profits. Where common SNES games are $7.99, they place an extra $2 due to popularity, rarity, and maybe harder to get the rights.

replacement shell is worth, around $7, take the PCB, some microchips, resisters, etc. maybe $13 max.
so actual value should be maybe $30 max for a SNES cart. or go by the prices of SNES Reproduction carts. to me Repos should be more because the old carts are used and worn out. still nowhere near what some of the rare games are going for.

even supply and demand is not really entirely applicable, there was a petition a few years ago to destroy every Superman 64 cartridge in existence. it still doesn't mean Superman 64 will ever sell for more than $10 regardless of how many exist. And when you think about it, Superman 64 has the exact same ROM Chip, the same 4 resistors and 1 capacitor, as the most sought after games. its not entirely about rarity anymore, (tengen tetris, ET for 2600) its about what people "perceive" the value to be, the rose colored glasses of nostalgia are clouding peoples judgement.
 
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The main problem with your argument is that you're comparing New (still in production) products, with older products, such as collectables, or products that are no longer in production.

The "actual value" of something is whatever the market is willing to pay for it. That's it. A product either sells at a certain price or it doesn't. It's the basic laws of Economics. Companies may suggest a price based on statistical data and production costs, but if consumers (as a majority) think that the product is too pricey for the value it offers, they won't buy it. Which effectively drives the cost down. OR, it inevitably kills off the product because the company can't afford the hit of dropping it down to where it "should" be. The whole thing eventually leads the market balancing itself out.

This whole "perceived value" vs. "actual value" (in the case of collectables, or out of print products) is a bogus argument. Only because it's the kind of argument that will go on FOREVER since perception IS unique to every individual. Especially when talking about second-hand goods. A thirty dollar, decade old, game may seem like a steal to Joe Gamebuyer, while the person standing next to him thinks it's too expensive. In this case, the ONLY variable that dictates market value, is the game's previous history of successful transactions. Meaning, it's not the seller's inflated prices that dictate market value, it's the "actual" price that the game is regularly being purchased at.

Most of these problems arise simply because we're talking about ebay. Ebay doesn't act like a typical brick and mortar store front. Ebay offers it's sellers the luxury of having a store front that can be easily accessed by an entire world's worth of consumers. This means that sellers don't suffer from the same limited pool of consumers that, let's say, a flea market seller would be limited to. This effectively drives up the cost of games on ebay because the seller knows that the chances of landing a buyer are better. Even if ebay sellers "wanted" to charge a cheaper price for their item. Someone would just swoop in, buy it from them at their cheaper listed price, then flip it. (turn around and resell it at an inflated cost)

Lastly, you can't compare games being sold on a digital store front with physical copies of "out of print" games. Digital games don't suffer from supply shortages. You can't even compare physical copies of "out of print" games with physical copies of games that are still in production. -- Also, in the case of Virtual Console games, one could make the argument that Nintendo is inflating the prices of these digital games. I mean, sure $7.99 might sound like a bargain. But we should consider that most of these games were made 2 or 3 decades ago, and have already seen their returns. And often times these games remain completely unchanged from their original source rom. It's almost as if Nintendo were printing money.

But it's okay, right? Because Nintendo is only charging us $7.99 for our nostalgia. And we feel better when we spend less than 20 bucks.
 
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superspudz2000

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The main problem with your argument is that you're comparing New (still in production) products, with older products, such as collectables, or products that are no longer in production.

The "actual value" of something is whatever the market is willing to pay for it. That's it. A product either sells at a certain price or it doesn't. It's the basic laws of Economics. Companies may suggest a price based on statistical data and production costs, but if consumers (as a majority) think that the product is too pricey for the value it offers, they won't buy it. Which effectively drives the cost down. OR, it inevitably kills off the product because the company can't afford the hit of dropping it down to where it "should" be. The whole thing eventually leads the market balancing itself out.

This whole "perceived value" vs. "actual value" (in the case of collectables, or out of print products) is a bogus argument. Only because it's the kind of argument that will go on FOREVER since perception IS unique to every individual. Especially when talking about second-hand goods. A thirty dollar, decade old, game may seem like a steal to Joe Gamebuyer, while the person standing next to him thinks it's too expensive. In this case, the ONLY variable that dictates market value, is the game's previous history of successful transactions. Meaning, it's not the seller's inflated prices that dictate market value, it's the "actual" price that the game is regularly being purchased at.

Most of these problems arise simply because we're talking about ebay. Ebay doesn't act like a typical brick and mortar store front. Ebay offers it's sellers the luxury of having a store front that can be easily accessed by an entire world's worth of consumers. This means that sellers don't suffer from the same limited pool of consumers that, let's say, a flea market seller would be limited to. This effectively drives up the cost of games on ebay because the seller knows that the chances of landing a buyer are better. Even if ebay sellers "wanted" to charge a cheaper price for their item. Someone would just swoop in, buy it from them at their cheaper listed price, then flip it. (turn around and resell it at an inflated cost)

Lastly, you can't compare games being sold on a digital store front with physical copies of "out of print" games. Digital games don't suffer from supply shortages. You can't even compare physical copies of "out of print" games with physical copies of games that are still in production. -- Also, in the case of Virtual Console games, one could make the argument that Nintendo is inflating the prices of these digital games. I mean, sure $7.99 might sound like a bargain. But we should consider that most of these games were made 2 or 3 decades ago, and have already seen their returns. And often times these games remain completely unchanged from their original source rom. It's almost as if Nintendo were printing money.

But it's okay, right? Because Nintendo is only charging us $7.99 for our nostalgia. And we feel better when we spend less than 20 bucks.

when we get into libertarian free market economics and Adam Smiths "invisible hand of the market", its a complex issue that has no clear black and white answers. so rather than turn the thread into a philosophical debate i will agree to disagree. (im leaning more towards Hobbes than Locke in the philosophical spectrum)

but i think it is unethical to overcharge something obscenely more than its worth. it cannot just be about a clear set of predictable mathematical laws when there is human interaction involved. Did you know diamond corporations actually destroy more diamonds then they sell, they destroy half the diamonds they mine in order to artificially inflate the market by intentionally limiting the supply. its not only dishonest to sell someone something thats ultimately worthless, the aggressive marketing that it requires to manipulate someone into buying worthless junk can almost be considered Brainwashing, and the system that keeps people trapped in mindless consumerism borders on debt slavery.

you could say Jim Jones was just a successful kool-aid salesman, but thats just downplaying a serious situation with more far reaching implications than merely "dumb idiots falling for a scam".

There are items on ebay that have been there for the past 3 years straight unsold, its greedy people holding out for a payday, and nobody wins in that situation, the potential buyers lose because there is less stock in circulation because of hoarders, the Buyer losses because he has to store the stuff, and he cannot rely on a stable market pricepoint to tell him what X is worth because of ebay/amazon gouging.

Also, Nintendo is providing a service in the eShop in the way of a storage medium for classic games and stable emulation. its not the actual games, its being able to have all your games on a single device, having off screen play on the Wii-U gamepad, etc.
 

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You say you want to agree to disagree, but then go on to continue arguing the point. It is not overcharging; it is the price the market will bare for a luxury item. What criteria should be used to determine the price which a private individual sells their property?

What is done with diamonds is unrelated as the diamond industry is a DeBeers monopoly where one company controls the entire industry. People selling used games do not control the supply of the games.
 
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There are items on ebay that have been there for the past 3 years straight unsold, its greedy people holding out for a payday
First off, it's their item to do with as they please. If they want to hold out for a better deal, it's ultimately their choice. If YOU were the one trying to sell something, you'd do the same. Especially if you valued the item and were in no hurry to get rid of it. -- And, out of curiosity... what exactly would you like the seller do? Sell the game to you for cheaper because you "really really want it" and think his price is unfairly listed at an amount that's higher than you're willing to pay?


...and nobody wins in that situation, the potential buyers lose because there is less stock in circulation because of hoarders
That sounds about right. When demand is high, and supply is low, prices go up.

And, "Hoarders?" Are you talking about the gamers who rightfully bought these games? How is it hoarding for them to want to hold onto an item that they've been searching for and finally found?

What would YOU do with these retro games after you bought them? Are you gonna turn around and give them away, or are you going to "hoard" them?
 
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As far as playing the games, I'd take any good condition original hardware over emulation any day. Sure a lot of games are becoming increasingly less affordable but there are flashcarts that let you bypass that problem. I enjoy collecting older games and consoles, and if I ever need money I can just sell the old hardware again. The joys of open marketing. :D
 

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First off, it's their item to do with as they please. If they want to hold out for a better deal, it's ultimately their choice. If YOU were the one trying to sell something, you'd do the same. Especially if you valued the item and were in no hurry to get rid of it. -- And, out of curiosity... what exactly would you like the seller do? Sell the game to you for cheaper because you "really really want it" and think his price is unfairly listed at an amount that's higher than you're willing to pay?

That sounds about right. When demand is high, and supply is low, prices go up.

And, "Hoarders?" Are you talking about the gamers who rightfully bought these games? How is it hoarding for them to want to hold onto an item that they've been searching for and finally found?

What would YOU do with these retro games after you bought them? Are you gonna turn around and give them away, or are you going to "hoard" them?

im not suggesting gamers shouldn't collect and preserve games, but its not usually gamers selling games at exorbitant prices, its Mass Liquidation Warehouses, its people who bid on abandoned storage units and old stock. or full time ebay sellers who buy bulk lots, then resell each individual item at a markup. These people are not gamers and have no ability to accurately judge the market besides the highest completed auctions.

the only thing i'm suggesting, is post your ebay auction with no reserve, and let the market decide what the item is worth, exactly like you said. That was the entire point of this discussion which seem to be continually ignored, that unrealistic buy it now gougers and Shill bidding are creating an over inflated sense of market value.

waiting for a rube to come along so you can fleece him is extremely dishonest and only hurts the seller in the long run.
 
Last edited by superspudz2000,

grossaffe

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I will agree with no reserve on ebay as a general rule. There is no purpose of a reserve other than to deceive prospective bidders. If you don't plan on selling below a certain price, then the bidding should start at that price.
 

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    BigOnYa @ BigOnYa: Sounds good actually.