Emulation forever.... origional hardware Never

Discussion in 'General Gaming Discussion' started by superspudz2000, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. superspudz2000
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    superspudz2000 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    i recently tried to get back into retro gaming, but it seems now like everything is just devolved into a horrible quagmire. and the realization that all the original hardware sucked. too difficult to find original components, every game is super rare apparently, and greedy ebayers are charging up the ass.

    Like Earthbound?, worth $10 according to Nintendo, $200 on ePay-through-the-nose.
    Misadventures of Tron Bonne is worth $5.99, a mere $220 for polycarbonate plastic.
    Megaman X2, a decent $7.99, on ebay $130.

    even accessories aren't immune to this insanity, Gamecube Video Cable going for $200-$300? (uuuh, doesn't Wii run GC?), Hori Mini Pad $130, Gameboy Player Controller $200!. PsOne Mouse $50. Ridiculous!. what kind of mental deficient is paying these prices?

    start with NES, ok, you get a used console, maybe you have an old cartridge lying around, pop it in and.... Green Flash... Green Flash... Green Flash.... Brilliant!. you need a new 42 pin connector, and soldering equipment, and time. But remember you also need to De-Yellow the console because the chemicals are breaking down the plastic!, better run around to beauty salons looking for Hydrogen Peroxide solution and UV lights to De-Yellow it. Hopefully the neighbors wont think you turned your garage into a meth lab.

    Well what about the Top Loader NES, NOPE!. "The RCA composite were removed from the system; an RF connection is the only way to connect the system to a television" WOW. forget about having the luxury of S-Video on any NES console, even the crappy 240p composite was removed.

    ok but what about 3rd party clones?, every manufacturer used crappy Composite video. you have one option, the Retron 5.... But theres a huge BUT..... its an ANDRIOD system running Retroarch emulator!, and you can download Retroarch for FREE!, on any Android device you want. the only real practical benefit would be for Mega-Collectors with massive cartridge collections. otherwise you could just download the roms with ZERO difference.

    SNES has S-Video... try finding a cable that actually separates the signals in true S-Video, most are "Dual" cables that simply push composite through the s-video port. And even then, try finding a TV that accepts SVideo nowadays. most newer LCD TV's are removing the S-Video port altogether. so are Receivers. look up Sony Receivers on radio shack, not one has s-video.

    and Gameboy, original has horrible picture quality regardless of what mod you do to it. Gameboy Color cannot be backlit. Chinese Clones have wrong aspect ratio. GBA is junk, AGS-001 is junk, and GBA SP AGS-101 is ridiculously overpriced and useless for backwards compatibility because GB plays in a tiny little window, with ugly GBC palettes.

    Gameboy Player?, Super Gameboy?. the SGB is not compatible with GB Color cartridges. and doesn't really do much for 99% of GB games besides slap on a border and choose a 2-color GBC palette for you. GBPlayer on Gamecube, still uses GBC hardware so its Left+A, Right+B stupid codes at startup, and none look any good anyway.

    and anyway you can never really own every game physically. Translations. Hacks. Remakes. and Prototypes. but flashcarts... aren't perfect. arent future proof (equipment breaks down) and don't run 100% of games, so forget Starfox 2, or Banjo Kazui, or Kirby Tilt n Tumble, or Pokemon Ruby. You WILL be using an emulator eventually for those hard to run games, so why even bother at all.

    at this point, when is not using an emulator have any benefit over simply and easily using emulation and saving the massive headaches.
     
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  2. TecXero

    TecXero Technovert

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    I generally use emulation, as long as I can get it running better than the original console. Something like my Dreamcast and Xbox I still use, while my SNES and Genesis I just emulate. I haven't touched my NGC since Nintendont became the great piece of software it is for the Wii.
     
  3. cvskid

    cvskid GBAtemp Addict

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    At the bare minimum just get the original hardware with a flashcart for each of them. Won't have to worry about spending $200 for earthbound or $800 for flinstones suprise at dinosuar peak or $100 for conkers bad fur day and etc.

    For games that have issues running on flash carts try getting the japanese versions as they tend to be cheaper a lot of the time. For the nes colors problem disable the 10nes chip and install a new 72 pin connector or try to revive the old one. Gameboy color and the original advance can have frontlit mods done on them. There are solutions to a lot of the problems that you are having, not all though.
     
    Last edited by cvskid, Mar 2, 2016
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  4. sj33

    sj33 GBAtemp Addict

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    It's not an either-or thing in fairness, but in these days of emulators becoming increasingly accurate (more accurate that revisions of the real hardware in some cases, see Higan/bsnes), the idea that playing on real original hardware just 'feels' better is becoming a placebo.

    I cringe when people insist that emulators just 'don't feel right', then run out and buy games on the Virtual Console (itself just a moderately accurate emulator).
     
  5. superspudz2000
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    superspudz2000 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    well take the GB everdrive, it re-writes the EEPROM everytime you change a game. and the rom chip is rated at something like 10,000 rewrites in its lifespan. its not future-proof in the least. Drag n Derp is future proof, but can only store 1 rom file.

    the gameboy limitations are probably the worst example, but all equipment eventually breaks down.

    wholeheartedly agree on the Japanese versions though. 50% cheaper sometimes.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    THIS!. this new fad of "retro gamer" needing perfect authenticity is the reason Programmers give up on emulation projects halfway through because there is no support for it. At least donate to kickstarters instead of buying overpriced plastic.
     
    Last edited by superspudz2000, Mar 2, 2016
  6. sj33

    sj33 GBAtemp Addict

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    I understand why people might buy actual copies of games because they do want to own it, or play games on the original hardwarew based on some feeling of nostalgia.

    What I don't understand is when people try to claim that emulators 'don't feel right' without being able to explain why. Emulators these days are so accurate that there's no rational basis for claiming there's a difference beyond placebo.

    As for Virtual Console games, it'd hard to justify purchasing these when the money just gets pocketed by the publisher - the original developers don't see a penny. People must understand this - the original developers don't get money from Virtual Console games! Nor do they get any money from the retro game you bought on eBay.
     
  7. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

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    ...and if they're not doing that, they'r busy connecting their original coleco vision to their huge ass plasma-4k-HD homecinema with 5.1 dolby high definition surround sound. :P


    EDIT: as for the topic: I sold my SNES with about 18 games a month ago. It still worked, but the connector really had to be put in a weird angle to work. If the new owner has a cat, I take it the new owner has already attempt to strangle it because some hardcore run suddenly got interrupted because the cat's tail touched said connector. Yeah...games were so much better before they had savepoints every five seconds... :unsure:
     
    Last edited by Taleweaver, Mar 2, 2016
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  8. Dr Eggman

    Dr Eggman I am THE Eggman.

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    As someone who's collected over the years, I've got to say, there are some valid points here.

    Yes, yes and yes. eBay is garbage for this.

    The "mental deficient" is the recent (? it's actually been years lol) spike in demand. Suddenly, 80s and 90s kids are growing up with money burning in their wallets and alcohol isn't enough to bring back their childhood. Putting the law of supply and demand aside (fixed supply vs exponential increase in demand = price spike) it's also uninformed people who waltz into retro video game stores and pay $150 for an NES or Sega Genesis / CD combo (I paid $30 for each, respectively) that drives prices up. Real collectors have been irritated and hit by this for years. Luckily, I started collecting right before the price spike so while more seasoned people might consider me to have overpaid for some items I own, I've never been ripped off like laypeople get all the time.

    Most collectors are hoping that once these new buyers grow up a little more, stop caring about their Mario, sell off their stuff again in a garage sale like they did 15 years ago, that the demand will drop and level off so prices will come back down.

    To be fair there's no soldering ;) But the point is true - older hardware is breaking down.

    10000% Agreed. This is why most real collectors will NEVER support these things! Especially how squarepusher showed that they were violating GPL with their use of code. These are just for people again, as referenced above, see this thing that plays mario and they want one! Though you, of course, could do the same thing with $20 and the phone that's in your pocket right now.

    While hard to find, I do in fact own one of these cables. It cost me about $10. You just gotta know where to look (hint: all collectors are looking here now - Japan). That being said, these consoles were built for CRT's. They really don't look good on LCD's anyways (unless you spend tons to get one of those XRGB framemeisters or whatever). Also, you're from Canada... where do you live that they still have Radio Shacks?!

    There's very little benefit for most people. For most consoles, there isn't a benefit. Some consoles have emulators that blow on every platform (ok, only one, N64).
    In my case, I enjoy the hobby. I like having original hardware. I like having obscure things. I have my Wii hooked up to my projector via Component (YPbPr) and get awesome video for NES, SNES, GBA & GC gameplay, and anything I play regularly I play on that. And I hate input lag, which some emulators have terribly.
    The consoles aren't for regular use, at least in my opinion, just like you wouldn't drive a classic car to work everyday or drink a fine wine with dinner every night. You take care of them, play with them on occasion, and buy and invest more into them, meet like minded people. It's simply that, a hobby. If someone just wants to play the games, I'd tell them to pick up an Nvidia Shield TV. Does everything and then some.
     
  9. Flame

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    for me its i can buy it now.... so in the future i should have good old console.. e.g. PS3 when PS6 is released.

    i dont have a PS1 cause I was too young, and didnt think i should buy that cause one say I will enjoy it.


    to recap: build collection now... for the future. fuck the past.
     
  10. sj33

    sj33 GBAtemp Addict

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    ^and how often do you actually set up your old consoles just to play that collection, rather than using more convenient means?
     
  11. Gingerbread Crumb

    Gingerbread Crumb Member

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    The only consoles I would consider buying are the sega saturn and the sega dreamcast thats it I would not buy a genesis, nes or snes because my 3ds can play them just fine. Also if I ever want to record gameplay I can do it on the pc instead of buying extra stuff.
     
  12. cvskid

    cvskid GBAtemp Addict

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    If you know what to do and what to get then setup is most likely a 1 time deal so you can switch between systems without unhooking anything.
     
  13. Lilith Valentine

    Lilith Valentine GBATemp's Wolfdog™ ☠️Grunt☠️

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    I actually mostly do emulation or hack my systems to run games off external means (external hard drives or in my PSP's case, disabled the UMD and playing all games from the memory card.) It's mostly because I prefer original hardware since it's obviously going to work better, but I hate easily breakable movable parts. That's basically why I rarely use my PS2 or Dreamcast because I don't have a fast enough means of using external hardware for my games.
    I do however emulate systems like SNES, NES, and N64 because they only kind of work on my newer TV. I actually can't just straight up use them on my TV. I have to plug them into my older TV, boot the system up that way, then plug them into my newer TV. I've tried different cords and everything and that's the only method that worked. So emulation is the best way of getting around all of that hassle.
     
  14. portugeek

    portugeek GBAtemp Fan

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    1.) When you buy a physical game you're not just paying for the content. The cost (albeit over inflated for a handful of non-rare titles) is higher because you're buying something for which there is a finite supply.

    2.) It's actually a 72 pin connector, and there is no soldering, you just simply remove the old one and slide the new one into place. Time? 10 minutes max, and that includes taking the console apart AND putting it back together.

    3.) Almost here! http://www.hdretrovision.com/snes/

    4.) When the consoles you're trying to emulate are 5th generation consoles (Saturn, PS1, N64) and newer. Emulation of these "newer" consoles isn't yet optimal. Fortunately, in the case of the PS1, we have modern consoles that still accept those games. The N64 emulators are far from perfect, and a good amount of games still freeze, or run at horrible frame rates. Not to mention that the emulators for these consoles can be tedious to setup, and still the games run poorly.

    5.) If someone were to load a different game, every single day, for 365.25 days a year. The 10,000 rewrites would equal just over 27 years and 4 months. Even if you up it from 1 to 3 different rewrites per day, you're still looking at about a decade's worth of play time. Sounds pretty good when you're talking about the longevity of tech. Besides, something better will inevitably come around to replace it. Think of any tech that you use on a regular basis, that you've kept around for a decade before replacing.

    Personally, I prefer emulation because of it's convenience. (Game swapping, save states, etc.) But when my favorite games don't run properly, it makes me long for the simplicity of physical games on original hardware. Another thing I don't like about emulation is that unless you want to buy USB versions of all your favorite old-school controllers, you're stuck playing a game with a controller that doesn't feel right. Playing the songs of an Ocarina, on anything other than the 4 yellow c-button's, feels awkward. Flash Carts seem to provide the best of both worlds.


    When has this ever NOT been the case? In most cases, the Publisher owns the rights to the license. The only times this differs is when a Developer is being backed by a Publisher to help the Developer create their own game. Or when the Developer/Publisher are two entities within the same company. (i.e. Ubisoft) Developers typically get paid for their work, and when their job is done, they move on, unless they've been contracted to work on sequals.

    It's like with Darksiders. Nordic Games currently owns the property. When they created the Deathinitive Edition, they didn't pay royalties to employee's who originally worked for Vigil Games. And why would they? The property never belonged to Vigil.. it belonged to THQ, who liquidated their assets, and Nordic bought the rights as the highest bidder. You don't get money for being a former employee.. you get money for being the owner.
     
  15. grossaffe

    grossaffe GBAtemp Addict

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    The gamecube had a digital output for its component video that required a custom ASIC. The low production run of these cables leads to them being expensive. And the Wii's component output is poor compared to that of the Gamecube; it hasn't the cleanest of signal and discerning enthusiasts can tell the difference. There should be clones available, now, as some good people put the effort into cloning the ASIC on FPGAs.

    I've got an S-Video cable for my SNES (and I guess N64 and Gamecube, too, by extension), and I can definitely tell the difference in 2D games as it cleans up the dot crawl. The PAL regions have it nice, though, with their SCART connector which produces RGB video output.

    Of course the Super GameBoy is not compatible with GBC, the GBC didn't come out until 4 years later. There are some games that were specifically programmed to work well with the SGB that is nice, and for games that did not explicitly code SGB support, you could make your own palette to suit your own preference.

    Starfox 2, at least, you should be able to build a reproduction cart of, if you don't mind sacrificing a copy of, say, Stunt Race FX.

    When you enjoy original hardware. Oh, and you don't want to deal with the headaches associated with emulation.
     
  16. Hungry Friend

    Hungry Friend It was my destiny to be here; in the box.

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    When I have a working console as well as working controllers available to me I prefer original hardware on a CRT, but emulators like BSNES/higan, 9x, epsxe, Dolphin, the various NES emus and fucking MAME make emulation very convenient and you're right; it's available to EVERYONE. No high prices, haggling, obsessive collector prices or any of that stupid shit but there is something to be said for a 100% authentic experience as well so while I lean towards emulation, I love me some SNES, DC, PS1 and PS2 games on my tube. My NES has been broken for years and is probably still laying around at my parents' house somewhere, so emulation is fucking awesome for allowing me not only to play NES games but also arcade games that are for all intents and purposes lost to history aside from MAME and other arcade emus. MAME, FBA etc have really helped to preserve the history of arcade games as a whole and I have immense respect for those who work on these emulators because it still blows my mind to play actual arcade ROMs on my PC even though I've been doing it since like 1999-2000 with old ass Callus95(great old CPS1 emu) & Neorage.

    As a kid I always fantasized about owning a NeoGeo but due to its insane price and the horrible loading of the NGCD, I never got the chance to play those games outside of arcades and many games like the Last Blade games were totally unknown to me despite being masterpieces of both art and gameplay. I was so happy when CPS2 decryption started because I had ALWAYS wanted the Saturn versions of the first 2 Marvel/Capcom tag team VS games but I didn't own a Saturn back in the day and couldn't afford one. Being able to play those high-end CPS2 and even CPS3 games these days is awesome beyond description.

    I'll stop now but emulation gives anyone with a working computer many lifetimes worth of amazing classics to play and helps to preserve history. Then there are all the amazing, amazing ROM hacks and fan translations out there. I love emulation!
     
    Last edited by Hungry Friend, Mar 6, 2016 - Reason: edited a few typos, rephased some stuff
  17. loco365

    loco365 GBAtemp Guru

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    Yes, eBay prices are garbage, but Nintendo has them for cheap because it's a digital distribution - they don't need to produce chips, cartridge casings, manuals, or boxes, so the cost is inherently cheaper anyways.
     
  18. superspudz2000
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    superspudz2000 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    1. agree its just supply and demand, but the thing about eBay is the prices points are almost always horribly inflated,
    "Guy A".. who is not a gamer and has no idea what somethings worth sets a huge buy it now and best offer, because he can afford to wait, and he is only concerned with the "Best Offers".

    "Guy B" sees Guy A's auction price as the first result in a search, and assumes thats just what people are paying, Guy B also is not a gamer and doesn't want to miss the next "Cubic Ninja" cash cow, so he just follows the highest completed auctions like hes playing the stock market.

    "Guy C" now sees 2 marked up auctions and sets his price $1 less than Guy B, and since he is the lowest price in a search, when he sells it to some desperate moron that result will show in Completed Listings....

    and the cycle continues.... auctions just sit there in limbo for years and years at over inflated prices because of "Monkey See, Monkey Do", without actually researching if people are willing to pay that amount or not.

    2. yes you're right, my mistake.

    3. looking forward to it.

    4. partially agree with that. back in the days of Pentium 4's with only 2.0 Ghz, x86 processors, N64 emulators were a complete nightmare, and compatibility was sketchy, but nowadays a top of the line hardcore gaming PC should be able to remove the limits set by the older tech. and of course Cell Phones wont run N64 1:1 perfectly because they aren't powerful enough, but the fact they run at all on such a tiny device as amazing.

    it depends how much you are willing to invest in a Gaming PC setup. the latest hardware should solve framerate issues, and since N64 system, adapters, memory paks, controllers, etc can easily run you into $300+ dollars, and the games worth playing are $50 -$90 Each.... you will actually save money by buying good PC hardware, rather than going the console route.

    and the Controllers aren't really the case anymore, 8Bitdo has NES30 controller that is absolutely phenomenal and has Wireless Bluetooth, and its factory new so its better than an old worn out yellowed NES and Snes controller. Hyperkin and Retrolink makes acceptable snes controllers, i heard "CirKa" controllers has fairly good quality too. Or get a simple controller converter and use any original controller forever. People who say a controller "doesn't feel right" is really just a psychological thing. its the power of suggestion. new controllers have to be "broken in" to loosen them up, after a few intense sessions of street fighter or smash bros, the controller feels more natural.
     
  19. DinohScene

    DinohScene Feed Dino to the Sharks

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    This is really something for blogs.

    OP, if you cannot afford retro gaming then either don't or download and emulator and call it quits.
     
  20. Touko White

    Touko White (not)Banned

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    I second this, although for some games you have to play on the real hardware, usually when the game doesn't work or is shit in an emulator.
    However what with everything you can do in emulators, there's not much reason to have the actual thing as much as people still seem to make out.

    I'd also rather have fixed editions of games and be able to play hacks easier, too.
     
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