Discussion on modern politics

[TotalInsanity4]

Just a good reason the 1% need 99% of the tax burden.

When they're making profits equivalent to that, I don't see how that's unfair. That's just a really alarmist way of saying it

 

[Xzi]

Look inside my posts spoiler.

Look at my edit. National and local minimum wage are two separate issues.

I'm sorry, what? Either the economic policy works or it doesn't. We got higher tax revenue and some of the highest GDP in a long time. It's not the free markets fault Reagan overspent on military and the banks went nuts with interest rates.

If the only two options are "it worked or it didn't," then it didn't. Things are a bit more complicated than that, though, and so much of that national debt came from corporate welfare under Reagan, as is tradition for the Republican party. For some reason the tax cuts alone are never good enough.

 

[KingVamp]

We're not giving free money. I don't understand what you mean. Lower tax rates=Higher Tax revenue.

If lowering tax rates =/= giving free money, neither does basic income.

I firmly believe a social safety net is a good thing.

Then you shouldn't be against a basic income.

 

[Deleted User]

Look at my edit. National and local minimum wage are two separate issues.

Eh, small-scale or large-scale the principals are still the same.

If the only two options are "it worked or it didn't," then it didn't. Things are a bit more complicated than that, though, and so much of that national debt came from corporate welfare under Reagan, as is tradition for the Republican party. For some reason the tax cuts alone are never good enough.

Literally all the studies are against you.

Spoiler

Olivier Blanchard & Robert Perotti, An Empirical Characterization Of The Dynamic Effects Of Changes In Government Spending And Taxes On Output, 107 Quarterly Journal of Economics 1329-1368 (2002).
F. Padovano & E. Galli, E., Tax rates and economic growth in the OECD countries (1950-1990), 39 Economic Inquiry 44-57
(2001).
Stefan Folster & Magnus Henrekson, Growth effects of government expenditure and taxation in rich countries, 45 European Economic Review 1501-1520 (2001).

The National debt did not balloon because of bad economic policy. It was a combination of terrible interest rates, forced deflation under Jimmy Carter, and Reagan overspending on military and defense.

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If lowering tax rates =/= giving free money, neither does basic income.

What.
UBI means everyone gets income.

Given to them by the government.

Am I missing something here?

Then you shouldn't be against a basic income.

Let me rephrase:

I believe in a social safety net.

For those who need it.

Im not going to pay taxes to a government that's going to spend 12trillion on giving free money to everyone. It's absurd and unsustainable.

 

[Xzi]

Eh, small-scale or large-scale the principals are still the same.

Large-scale or small-scale, the only excuse for not raising the minimum wage is greed. Like I said, you and I have to foot the bill when corporations cheap out on wages.

Literally all the studies are against you.

The facts are with me. Every time a Republican cuts the corporate tax rate we come out of their presidency much deeper in debt. I don't know if that's because they're fudging the revenue numbers or because Republicans can't stop handing out free money to the 1%, but either way the results are the same. Until we get a modern president to prove your theory that it's possible to cut the corporate tax rate without ultimately raising the national debt, I'm going to keep assuming the average worker has to be thrown under the bus in order to keep the corporate shitheels happy.

 

[Deleted User]

Large-scale or small-scale, the only excuse for not raising the minimum wage is greed. Like I said, you and I have to foot the bill when corporations cheap out on wages.

So what's your opinion of self kiosk machines that are becoming popular in states with high minimum wages?

The facts are with me. Every time a Republican cuts the corporate tax rate we come out of their presidency much deeper in debt. I don't know if that's because they're fudging the revenue numbers or because Republicans can't stop handing out free money to the 1%, but either way the results are the same. Until we get a modern president to prove your theory that it's possible to cut the corporate tax rate without ultimately raising the national debt, I'm going to keep assuming the average worker has to be thrown under the bus in order to keep the corporate shitheels happy.

Correlation =/= Causation

 

[Xzi]

So what's your opinion of self kiosk machines that are becoming popular in states with high minimum wages?

Automation was always going to become an issue eventually, which is why a universal basic income will eventually become a necessity as well.

Correlation =/= Causation

Honestly it doesn't even matter in the end, given that cutting the corporate tax rate provides no tangible benefit to 98% of this nation's citizens. The only purpose is pushing us closer to a plutocracy/oligarchy.

 

[Deleted User]

Honestly it doesn't even matter in the end, given that cutting the corporate tax rate provides no tangible benefit to 98% of this nation's citizens. The only purpose is pushing us closer to a plutocracy/oligarchy.

It actually does provide a tangible benefit, namely job opportunities and higher wages.

 

[KingVamp]

What.
UBI means everyone gets income.

Given to them by the government.

Am I missing something here?



Let me rephrase:

I believe in a social safety net.

For those who need it.

Im not going to pay taxes to a government that's going to spend 12trillion on giving free money to everyone. It's absurd and unsustainable.

Not even the highest estimate is "12 trillion". Instead we pay taxes that goes into inefficient welfare that's constantly facing cuts by the people that keep increasing the debt in the first place. While giving tax cuts to the people who don't need it, rather than give money directly to the people that do need it.


You are not going to be paying most of the taxes for this, the ones that have higher incomes than you will be. Including the highest ones that don't want the minimum wage to go up even though they can afford it. One way to do it, is the VAT tax.

Automation was always going to become an issue eventually, which is why a universal basic income will eventually become a necessity as well.

We really shouldn't be waiting until it gets worse.

The facts are with me. Every time a Republican cuts the corporate tax rate we come out of their presidency much deeper in debt. I don't know if that's because they're fudging the revenue numbers or because Republicans can't stop handing out free money to the 1%, but either way the results are the same. Until we get a modern president to prove your theory that it's possible to cut the corporate tax rate without ultimately raising the national debt, I'm going to keep assuming the average worker has to be thrown under the bus in order to keep the corporate shitheels happy.

It is not even working right now. Link

 

[Deleted User]

Not even the highest estimate is "12 trillion". Instead we pay taxes that goes into inefficient welfare that's constantly facing cuts by the people that keep increasing the debt in the first place. While giving tax cuts to the people who don't need it, rather than give money directly to the people that do need it.


You are not going to be paying most of the taxes for this, the ones that have higher incomes than you will be. Including the highest ones that don't want the minimum wage to go up even though they can afford it. One way to do it, is the VAT tax.

No, they won't be. Those people are just going to do some trickery and move to a different country.

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Which means that yes, in fact, we will be footing the bill.

 

[Xzi]

We really shouldn't be waiting until it gets worse.

No, we really shouldn't be, but it's also not an option given who's in charge of government currently. Also it's unfortunate, but UBI will always be this "radical socialist/communist" idea to people until automation starts tangibly affecting unemployment.

It actually does provide a tangible benefit, namely job opportunities and higher wages.

When was the last time a Republican raised the minimum wage? And the US is mostly service jobs, corporations cut down to skeleton crews years ago. There's been no benevolent meeting between megacorps where they decided to raise the median (or minimum) wage to my knowledge, either. With the recent tax cuts most corporations just bought back their own stock.

 

[KingVamp]

No, they won't be. Those people are just going to do some trickery and move to a different country.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Which means that yes, in fact, we will be footing the bill.

This "if we do blank, they are going to leave" excuse. Quite frankly, if enough of them leave (which i don't think is actually going to happen) because they actually have to help the lower class with a small fraction of their money and not this indirectly tax cuts nonsense, just so people can actually have basic needs met, let alone enough money to buy their stuff, then capitalism is going to eventually fail.

Not to mention, if they leave, I don't see why they wouldn't get replace by other businesses.

No, we really shouldn't be, but it's also not an option given who's in charge of government currently. Also it's unfortunate, but UBI will always be this "radical socialist/communist" idea to people until automation starts tangibly affecting unemployment.

I don't think it has to be that far off, it only takes one president to turn things around. I mean, it is already taking jobs already.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

This "if we do blank, they are going to leave" excuse. Quite frankly, if enough of them leave (which i don't think is actually going to happen) because they actually have to help the lower class with a small fraction of their money and not this indirectly tax cuts nonsense, just so people can actually have basic needs met, let alone enough money to buy their stuff, then capitalism is going to eventually fail.

Not to mention, if they leave, I don't see why they wouldn't get replace by other businesses.

On top of that, there would be a lower strain on the economy that would continue to exist, as the businesses that stay would, in theory at least, actually be paying for the public services that they were using, rather than leeching off of them while profiting off of their own product

 

[Xzi]

I don't think it has to be that far off, it only takes one president to turn things around. I mean, it is already taking jobs already.

Well, if I'm playing devil's advocate, then the obvious response would be, "get another job, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, etc." We'll hit another economic crash and recession well before UBI becomes the obvious choice, I give it at least two more presidents, maybe more if we elect another reality TV star.

 

[KingVamp]

So here's a radical idea; make it so that businesses can choose exactly how much in taxes they pay, but they only get access to the public services they're actually paying for.

I doubt most are going to pay much, let alone the ones that will try to skip on as many public services as they can.

Well, if I'm playing devil's advocate, then the obvious response would be, "get another job, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, etc."

Right, work yourself to death and even have less time for yourself just because companies don't want to pay you a fair amount of money or lower prices in the first place. Meanwhile your health bills are probably going to go up due to stress, if you don't die from it early first. Not to mention, fighting both other people and automation to try to get more than one job.

 

[WD_GASTER2]

the hilarious parts is that if minimum wages kept up with inflation.. people would be making decent money right now, but because of the disparity of what people are making now, i can see how many people have their mind blown when they find out what this amount would be if it did.

 

[KingVamp]

the hilarious parts is that if minimum wages kept up with inflation.. people would be making decent money right now, but because of the disparity of what people are making now, i can see how many people have their mind blown when they find out what this amount would be if it did.

Or at the very least, people could work less and be less stressed.

 

[WD_GASTER2]

well if you think about it. higher wages would lead to drops to people having working 2-3 jobs in order to stay afloat.

 

[Taleweaver]

I really can't keep up this pace, guys. Six pages in one day? More so, this topic of "discussion on modern politics" is so broad that it could mean anything. In fact, it DOES encompass the whole idea of this subsection.

More so: if this is the meta-discussion where we're going to discuss the tone that person A uses to say X to person B, then it's already a slippery slope. Sorry, but I'll pass on that. And I'm already way to late to catch up on the discussion on the actual topics.

So I'll go with something that hasn't been said yet, if not for the simple reason that it took place offline. And is about local politics rather than about USA politics (you guys get enough attention as it is ).

So picture this: last saturday, I was invited for a written course and examination on karate (yes...that apparently does exist ). Since this was about an hour drive away from our dojo, I hitched a ride with one of my fellow club members. As we know each other from face (and fighting techniques) rather well but not so much socially (we don't hang out that much when not wearing our karate gi's), car conversation started off a bit hesitant.

The guy (and driver) was right-oriented. He's a teacher, and has seen some pretty troubled kids. I pretty much immediately put on the table that I was politically left, and am likely to vote for Groen, or perhaps even PVDA in the upcoming elections ('Groen' is a local environmental party; PVDA are...well, they're borderline communists).
Now...despite these apparent differences, the situation didn't turn awkward. We had a common bond (karate), so there was no reason to polarize.

He talked about situations he has seen as a teacher: kids with so little educational info that they can't even locate Belgium on a European map. An Islamitic child who almost literally throws up when he accidentally eats a piece of pizza with pork on it. These are problems, and i won't deny that with the mass migration in Europe, this isn't something to take lightly. But from my end, I pointed out that these people don't migrate for fun, and...well...there is one thing to not eat pork, but another thing to treat the act of it as if the meat is flat out poison.

Well...and so on. It was a good conversation. We've clearly got different views of the world, but that doesn't mean either is wrong. Rather the contrary: these conversations lead to a better understanding of the world, exactly BECAUSE the perspective is different.
Last wednesday we had a bit of practice together. It went fine (even better than before, though that can be my impression). We congratulated each other for both passing. all was well.



Now...you might have noticed that this isn't how the average political talks go down nowadays. Comments on facebook and local newspapers can be pretty darn toxic. They're the sort of comments you'd expect from your local town drunk...except multiplied by about a dozen. For each incident that can be openly (and anonymously) commented upon.
Our leaders aren't better, btw: a few weeks ago, one of our main politicians (Bart De Wever) suggested in the media that "politicians from other parties" might be involved in drugs trafficking. A strangely accurately timed TV documentary showed a lot of racism in a youth club ("Schild en vriend") that has lots of ties with the main political party. The opposition uses pretty strong words against the government, who tries to instill the population* that they have done a good job.
It's still nowhere in the direction that the US election goes, but depending on the outcome I'm afraid that we won't turn out much smarter than Americans...if at all. We just have an (IMHO) better system that discourages open war, if not for other reasons than for the simple fact that no party will ever claim the government by itself.

Ahem...so...in summary: my view on politics is that there's too much mud-slinging. We should get more self-confidence, and understand that different opinions or our own shortcomings in reasoning aren't automatically attacks at us in person. We aren't perfect. So we shouldn't be expected to be that way either (we should attempt to, obviously...but that's a different matter).



*small detail: our elections (in about a month) are obligated for all adults

 

[brickmii82]

Well, if I'm playing devil's advocate, then the obvious response would be, "get another job, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, etc." We'll hit another economic crash and recession well before UBI becomes the obvious choice, I give it at least two more presidents, maybe more if we elect another reality TV star.

Its coming faster than people think.
https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/2016-05-23/what-is-a-bespoke-tranche-opportunity