Clearing a few things up

Discussion in 'Switch - Hacking & Homebrew' started by UnsureSherlock, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. UnsureSherlock

    UnsureSherlock Advanced Member

    Aug 20, 2015
    United States
    I don't post on here too often, mainly because I'm not really a big fan of watching people with slim-to-no technical knowledge or programming skills argue over things they know nothing about.

    But I've been seeing some really silly shit being said lately, and I'd like to clear a few things up before the hive-mind around here pick it up and run with it as "fact". Much of this has already been said. Many users are aware of these things, but I figured centralizing it into one ranting manifesto would probably be worthwhile.

    Yes, every system that can be connected to via some external interface (ex: internet, i2c, etc) can also most likely be exploited to run some form of arbitrary code. Hence the old saying that the only secure computer system is one that's turned off and sitting in a lead box under 20 feet of concrete. Of course there are more exploits to be found in newer firmwares, there's not a single doubt there.

    The problem here isn't that there isn't some kind of exploit to be had. The problem is interest, and available time. Most of these guys, including myself, aren't teenagers with spare time. Most of them are working professionals, some with families to support. And while some random buffer overflow exploit is easy for anyone with a weekend to look into, diving into KASLR and JOP/ROP programming is something that requires a good amount of time, and writing a complete toolchain to take advantage of it using RE instead of the leaked SDK is a monumental task. On a related note: the folks able to accomplish these things are also better at their work. They're busier because their skills are in demand. I'm a software engineer by trade, sure, but I'm not quite to the same level as the names you hear here so often.

    This isn't to say that I don't understand why many of you say what you say. Back when the PSP was first released when I was in highschool writing crappy little LUA games, I was similar to many of the users that bother me today; Demanding more from developers who give up their free time to produce freely available software for people to simply enjoy. Of course even then I should have known it was a bit of a dick move on my part, but the same goes for many of you.

    Here's the point: These developers have a lot of responsibilities. I work full-time while working on my Masters. Daeken has about 30 projects at any given time, and between bug bounties and jobs he's a busy dude. The same can realistically be said about any of these guys. Yet I've already seen a ton of users posts questioning various dev's work ethic, skill, motivation, etc. Let's put that to rest now, and I would hope the mods would have the courtesy to reflect that ideal.

    In terms of homebrew: No, it's not incredibly far away. But to the demanding users who don't know the complexity of the task their asking? Much longer than they think. As of writing this a hello world is certainly possible. Yellows8 is putting more and more work into libnx, just having pushed more gfx work along with plutoo's excellent work. So yeah, we're getting closer.

    I'd like to end with this. It looks like Daeken is stepping back now that we have the beginnings of a functional toolchain (as limited as it may be), as well as an exploit to run with. I'm hearing talks about his backing out from the PSX dynarec, and how many of you automatically cast him in a bad light for that and telling of things to come. Instead of pretending like anyone owes you anything, simply be thankful that the poured that much time and effort into the work, and wish him well. Take this as advice from someone who's contributed to many projects, and been part of many scenes over the years. There's a reason GBATemp has been the laughing stock when it comes to homebrew communities since around 06', and it's the user's attitudes to blame.
  2. V-Temp

    V-Temp GBAtemp Fan

    Jul 20, 2017
    United States
    Nicely said. Everyone should be thanking daeken (or any one for that matter) for all of his work, not questioning his 'loyalty'.

    Unfortunately, most aren't even thinking about 'homebrew' in the sense that they are interested in it for getting into actually playing in userland or even trying to cut their teeth on anything. Everything just spirals back to: when backup-loader and when >3.0.1 software.
    g4jek8j54, Ra1d, peteruk and 2 others like this.
  3. WiiFoundLove

    WiiFoundLove GBAtemp Regular

    Jan 18, 2015
    EmuNAND is the only real goal. Homebrew and lastest firmware for using nintendo's online services.
  4. Malcolm-X
    This message by Malcolm-X has been removed from public view by TwinRetro, Nov 13, 2017, Reason: Be nice..
    Nov 13, 2017
  5. cysin

    cysin Member

    May 30, 2017
    Totally agree
  6. MeowMeowMeow
    This message by MeowMeowMeow has been removed from public view by TwinRetro, Nov 13, 2017, Reason: Be nice..
    Nov 13, 2017
  7. mendezagus

    mendezagus Member

    Aug 29, 2017
    So, let´s take something "simple" to ask for, like a SNES emulator for example. Do you think it´s going to be a while until end users could get it?

    I know i sound like another demanding user but it´s just out of curiosity. I agree with you, hackers don´t owe us anything. Plus, if i want to emulate a SNES game i´ll do it right now on my PC.
  8. blinkzane

    blinkzane Panic at your moms house

    GBAtemp Patron
    blinkzane is a Patron of GBAtemp and is helping us stay independent!

    Our Patreon
    Jul 24, 2012
    United States
    but do you have a twitter I can follow?
    edit:nvm found you
  9. migles

    migles Mei the sexiest bae

    GBAtemp Patron
    migles is a Patron of GBAtemp and is helping us stay independent!

    Our Patreon
    Sep 19, 2013
    i did mentioned this in another thread.
    i love lurkers with a couple of years old accounts
    they usually are just silently watching and seing the forums and only talk to say really good stuff
  10. guily6669

    guily6669 GBAtemp Regular

    Jun 3, 2013
    If someone hacked it completely and with something like a emunand I would donate.

    This is the only portable console until now that interests me for it's processing power.

    The only portable console I ever bought is a 3DS and I left it OFF for a couple years until the first flashcard arrived and even still I barely use it, only finished 2 little games.
  11. Malcolm-X
    This message by Malcolm-X has been removed from public view by TwinRetro, Nov 13, 2017, Reason: Be nice..
    Nov 13, 2017
  12. UnsureSherlock

    UnsureSherlock Advanced Member

    Aug 20, 2015
    United States
    Not my dev name, I tend to separate social media/non-professional things into this username and my dev/professional work into another.

    Long story short: could be a few months, could be more. Gfx still needs a ton of work as right now neither libnx or libtransistor handles it (plutoo pushed some gfx work to libnx recently but it's essentially stubs for now). After that we'll need sound and input, and then we'll have to examine performance which I suspect at first will be pretty bad.

    Just do a quick search on terms such as "when will x be possible/happen" or general expectations and disappointments of "homebrew when" threads.

    As to your other comments: See, when people grow up and leave school and get jobs they stop being concerned with "cringey" things or applying internet-culture-templates to people based off of a one off conversation. Worrying about other's social etiquette to that level of granularity is a luxury of people with too much free time. Once you start making worthwhile contributions to anything at all you'll see that. But seeing as you're the outlier on opinion on this thread, maybe you should learn a bit of introspection and see who has a "lack of social awareness".
  13. Polopop123
    This message by Polopop123 has been removed from public view by TwinRetro, Nov 13, 2017.
    Nov 13, 2017
  14. Malcolm-X

    Malcolm-X Member

    Nov 11, 2017
    Asking questions about the possible scope and timescale of homebrew is as you put it "really silly shit" and "questioning various dev's work ethic, skill, motivation, etc"? That's complete bullshit.

    Show me these threads expressing "disappointment" directly at homebrew developers. Show me the "tonnes" of threads/posts that are "questioning various dev's work ethic, skill, motivation, etc"

    You're max a couple of years out of undergraduate studies...lmao stop acting like you're some wise old head with decades of programming experience.

    Mentioned how you're disgusted by the peasant programming knowledge of this forum ✓
    Mentioned how your programming knowledge is so much superior to everyone on here ✓
    Mentioned how you're aren't a teenager, unlike everyone on here ✓
    Unnecessarily mentioned how you work full time and are studying for a Masters ✓
    Mentioned how you're on the "inside" with the homebrew developers community ✓
    Mentioned how you've been involved in a number of projects ✓
    Mentioned how you are your "elite" buddies view this community as a laughing stock ✓
    Unnecessarily mentioned how "busy" you are multiple times ✓
    General indignation through out the post ✓

    You'd be hard pressed to see many satiric copypastas that hit as many troupes as you did pal. Do you always go around needlessly telling people how busy you are? "Hey UnsureSherlock, how are you?", "I WORK FULL TIME AND I'M DOING MY MASTERS!".

    *snip* Be nice. -TwinRetro
    Last edited by TwinRetro, Nov 13, 2017
    piratesephiroth and DarthDub like this.
  15. UnsureSherlock

    UnsureSherlock Advanced Member

    Aug 20, 2015
    United States
    EDIT: On second thought, let's do this.

    Multiple posts a day asking how soon it will come is pretty silly, especially when there's a search function. Yep.

    Do you need a tutorial on how to use the search function? Reading into context is hard, I know. But with this many posts asking "homebrew when?", multiple times a day, does it really need to be explicitly stated that users are whining and complaining for it come sooner?

    Woo these are always my favorite parts. Jumping on the assumption train brings us into a fun world where I can say you're 12 based on your level of critical thinking, abilities, and also how important you think your opinion is. But let's skip the assumption train shall we? Let's stick to facts, or at least in the case of where you want the conversation to go, ad hominems.

    Playing with words to modify the meaning doesn't make the original statement any different. This is fun though, I could do it too:

    Moving on

    Mhm. The average poster here MAY have written a script or two, and have no real knowledge of software development, reverse engineering, or working with code in a collaborative environment. Being self aware enough to say I'm better at what I do than the average user here, but not as good as the bigger names of the scene is something called ~introspection~, something you may want to look into. Also, excellent work ignoring how I mentioned that I'm not nearly as talented as some of the bigger names in an effort to cherrypick a bad light from my post. Kudos. Again, can't argue with the original statement, so have to modify it more to your liking? Cmon "pal", who is that really fooling?

    Giving context as to why myself and other developers don't have unlimited time to produce free code? I know, anyone mentioning anything that you haven't done means you have to take that as a direct insult to your ego, but people have responsibilities outside your scope even if you can't accept that.

    Right. Because I personally know 2 of them, and speak with the others occasionally. Because I am involved with these projects, just as I was in the PSP days, just as I was in the 3DS era (although admittedly on the 3DS all I did was quickly port a shitty little ASCII game). And most other communities do view this as the laughing stock. Go on the Reswitched discord, or look at the twitter accounts of the bigger names. The evidence is there, and it's not nearly just my own opinion. Why is anyone else's experience such a threat to you?

    Because I am. To provide context how I, with even less knowledge that folks like Daeken, Hedge, SciresM, or Plutoo, am still busy as fuck and they do even more than I do. See, if you don't read other's posts through the silly filter of "how can this offend me and make me feel less valuable", you'd notice what people are actually trying to say. (And not what you think they say.)

    Hard not to, to be frank. Already seeing shit flinging at Daeken's name and felt that was a little much considering his work.

    To wrap it all up, just for you, since we're "pals" now (seriously, talking about copypasta conversations and you don't even have the self-awareness to see how you're doing that precise thing? This is gold.)
    "Needless" is a subjective term. The reason I mentioned my situation and status was to provide contrast to how other big names are doing even more than me, contributing more, and on bigger projects, and are busier in the rest of their life as well. See, not everything is a direct insult to you. Since you're clearly insecure about your accomplishments in life, you immediately see anyone talking about what they're working on, doing, failing at, etc. as something you should point at and laugh. You should really think about that and what that says about you as a person.

    I'll respect your opinion a little more (and others would too) once you can contribute more than just words. Until then you're just an angry face in a crowd, so enjoy that.

    Just remember,

    Last edited by UnsureSherlock, Nov 13, 2017
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  16. Malcolm-X
    This message by Malcolm-X has been removed from public view by TwinRetro, Nov 14, 2017, Reason: I said be nice..
    Nov 14, 2017
  17. MasterJ360

    MasterJ360 GBAtemp Fan

    Jan 10, 2016
    United States
    I agree for the most part, while I do respect talented devs no matter what profession they rein in of course I've been through my share of multiple hacking scenes
    with my provided hacked console list.

    I don't know the whole deal with Switch community since I jumped on the switch hype train buying one recently,
    but I believe that the Nintendo hacking community just has high expectations based on the past hacked consoles and ppl can get abit jumpy with their theories on the exploit process. Thing is every console hacking dev should expect/prepare themselves for this since console hacking is a pretty big project. I know you software engineers are smarter than an average Joe, but when you lay a bowl of milk on the floor the kittens will gather for a drink
    Last edited by MasterJ360, Nov 14, 2017 - Reason: My inner thoughts is all.
  18. guily6669

    guily6669 GBAtemp Regular

    Jun 3, 2013
    I dont think most of the noob related spam on forums is really directed to devs.

    I'm always amazed with people exploits\mods and will to crack all the protections on devices.

    I wouldn't mind donating to someone who would fully mode the Switch to run "backups" and I would run into the store to buy one, until then I won't buy the console and only dream about it :).

    ps: But I also don't support things like on X360 the FWH there was one version which was paid, I believe in donations, not asking money to get the hack for something that is supposed to run "backups".
    Last edited by guily6669, Nov 14, 2017
  19. UnsureSherlock
    This message by UnsureSherlock has been removed from public view by TwinRetro, Nov 14, 2017, Reason: Stop it. Now..
    Nov 14, 2017
  20. TwinRetro

    TwinRetro Global Moderator

    Global Moderator
    Aug 29, 2008
    Hiatus Hell
    Stop this pointless argument. Now.

    If you can't discuss this topic without name calling, smarmy remarks, and underhanded insults, this thread will be closed, and everyone involved can take a mandatory time-out.
  21. UnsureSherlock

    UnsureSherlock Advanced Member

    Aug 20, 2015
    United States
    Speaking of which, you dudes should actually probably move on past the whole IP ban thing, seeing as how it's a diceroll whether you're banned or not when using carrier data.
  22. hedgeberg

    hedgeberg Newbie

    Aug 12, 2017
    United States
    Since y'all are talking about someone you don't know, I'm going to come out and say it: Daeken is one of the most amazing, most generous, hardworking people I've ever met. He just changed jobs, he has a /ton/ of stuff going on in his life, but the main reason he quit the scene wasn't that. It's because of you all and the anxiety dealing with this community caused him. Daeken has been in a lot of hacking communities, but you all finally broke him.

    He's been hacking longer than many of the people in this thread have been alive, but /this/ community had what it took to scare him off. Take a moment to think on that. We were lucky as a community to have him join for the time that he did, and I cannot blame him at all for stepping back. We all need to have a serious talk about how we interact, or daeken wont be the last to join only to be pushed away.
  23. V-Temp

    V-Temp GBAtemp Fan

    Jul 20, 2017
    United States
    Toxicity is a surefire way to make "gimme mah hax now!" into having no "hax" ever because no one will engage or release anything.

    But a lot of the Switch extended community feels like its been wound tight on a coil, and I am unsure why that is exactly.

    Putting a feeler out there, I think a lot of people are coming from the 3DS (or WiiU) scene and used to having everything done for a few years now and early quick progress on the Switch really tainted some expectations thereafter. Those expectations are also running headlong into warnings from said hackers/devs in the scene that a lot has changed since the 3DS, a schism happened with 3.0.0 and downgrade protections, lack of optics on interest on any higher firmware (trapping people and making them agitated), and the general up-tick in gamecrypto that will combat piracy has spooked some as well for whom even the major successes of 3.0.0 won't give them what they really want (ie. piracy on a silver platter). Even Rohan running is showing signs of bewilderingly skewed expectations as if emulators and the GFX packages to run them as anything more than text-adventures will pop up tomorrow as if conjured from the great aether.

    There's a lot of little things that I think boiled into a bad thing for a while. (Also the more open, communal nature of Switchbrew/ReSwitched means people have a target for their frustrations.)

    Some of the vitriol that popped up in this very thread is evidence to that end, or the fact that this thread needed to be even made.
    Last edited by V-Temp, Nov 14, 2017
    peteruk likes this.
  24. Daeken

    Daeken Member

    Aug 20, 2017
    United States
    To be completely clear, though, this isn't the sole reason or main reason -- I'm not sure there is a main reason. It's certainly why I don't want to run ReSwitched anymore; it's not a toxic cesspool, but only because we've been diligent as hell and have enforced tight constraints on the community. But that enforcement puts a huge strain on everyone involved, and frankly I can't do that anymore.

    But even if this weren't the case, it'd still be time for me to move on. My interest has shifted away from the Switch, and thankfully that coincided with the release of ROhan and the creation of sdbcore. I'm just really looking forward to the new things in my life. I have a new job, a kid on the way, and new projects to undertake. It's an exciting time for me, and I'm going to enjoy it far more than if I kept hacking the Switch.

    I've said my entire career: I never do the same thing twice. I accomplished what I wanted in the iPhone scene, the Wii scene, the hotel lock scene, and now the Switch. Time to find/make a new scene to occupy my mind for the next 6-12 months.
    Ra1d, Edgy_Edge, Kapeas and 5 others like this.
  25. subcon959

    subcon959 teh retro

    Dec 24, 2008
    So, the takeaway from all this seems to be that yes there are a few (as always) ungrateful, impatient types spouting off here and there, but not to the extent that there is some big drama. Oh well, nothing to see here..
    Malcolm-X and duffmmann like this.
  26. duffmmann

    duffmmann GBAtemp Psycho!

    Mar 11, 2009
    United States
    I dont doubt that in time (like potentially years) later FWs will be exploited. And if not, well no big deal, my 3DS and Wii U hacked is really all i need for getting all the best old games on modern tech, and if my Switch can eventually get hacked too, that'd be just super.
    Last edited by duffmmann, Nov 14, 2017