Official Citra - New 3DS Emulator

Discussion in '3DS - Homebrew Development and Emulators' started by bunnei, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. LG_

    LG_ GBAtemp Fan

    Apr 10, 2016
    Can't you just test the game yourself ? It takes like, 3 minutes for you to download the latest build and test the game to get this information. You have posted this question more than one hour ago, in this time you could have tested the game at least 20 times :ph34r:
    julialy, JayFoxRox and NiagA like this.
  2. Abu_Senpai

    Abu_Senpai The Red King

    Jul 13, 2014
    United Kingdom

    tbh i cant and personally i find it easier to do it this way. Not that it should affect you in any way shape or form
  3. Miguel Gomez

    Miguel Gomez GBAtemp Addict

    Jan 10, 2016
    Planet Earth
    Xenoblade needs New 3DS input. Citra right now is o3DS emulator. Soon m8. They will fix the n3DS input.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    @Satoshi121 yet again. No Patreon for Citra.

    If you want to support bunnei's work, go back to the 1st page and donate it via Paypal. Paypal is simple while Patreon is like a Vending Machine.
    Abu_Senpai likes this.
  4. Abu_Senpai

    Abu_Senpai The Red King

    Jul 13, 2014
    United Kingdom

    Thanks. Ill keep an eye out!
  5. JayFoxRox

    JayFoxRox GBAtemp Regular

    May 16, 2016
    Gambia, The
    Here comes another long one, sorry! - As responses get exponentially longer, I'd recommend moving this to a fast paced medium / IM to clear up anything if you feel this matter still isn't resolved.
    (However, I feel we are starting to agree on most things now)

    Fair enough. I feel like a elaborate response about complicated topics is reasonable to disprove a personal attack.

    Okay, this is also what currently happens.
    I dislike it because it's a system where money (potentially lots of it) could get lost or be stolen (hostile developer or just an attack without insurance).

    I don't. I'm interested why people think that the cemu business model is good.
    Which, from my understanding, you were proposing.

    I still appreciate you responding :)

    While this sounds good in theory, this probably doesn't work.

    First of all: I'm barely making the Top-10 in the list of top-contributors.
    But let's assume I was in charge: with ~20 active coders and a lot of PRs, a blog to write and whatnot, it is already hard enough to maintain the emulator.
    Also organizing this would mean exchanging bank details, checking validity of money requests, keeping receipts, evaluating each incoming request etc.
    For example: I only have an overview of the GPU emulation. I *hear* about most of the stuff wwylele, jroweboy, Subv and co. are working on, but I could not label it with a monetary value.
    Even less so I could evaluate how much time they spend on it.

    A single contribution / feature is also often made by up to 100 people. There'll be people who crack the 3DS, others who document their findings how the now accessible aspects of a 3DS works.
    Then someone else goes and implements a prototype for Citra. Another person comes in and works on it some more etc.
    There'll be a lot of people reviewing the code and one person later takes responsibility for including the final feature in the emulator (which is not the one who wrote it, for security etc. reasons).

    Also the Top-3 developers can be inactive for a long time (Even all at once as new generations of developers take over).
    bunnei for example is very busy with life. He barely works on features himself anymore.
    Most of his Citra-time is spent reviewing other peoples code (which does not necessarily mean he'll understand who wrote it or what exactly it does - consider it like spellchecking = he might not be able to decide who deserves money).
    It's also possible that he'll be gone for weeks due to personal life.
    This is also true for me - most of my contributions were in early 2016, since then I've mostly moved to organizing the community.
    So what if people worked on the project, expecting monetary rewards, but then nobody has any clue what they actually did or is responsible for sending them money?
    I certainly wouldn't be able to help them or cash them out - it would only lead to anger (rightfully).

    Even if this approach would work then you are still leaving out people like @LG_ or @Miguel Gomez or hundreds of other people I've talked to on Discord or the forums who continue to push the community forward.
    They might not contribute code, but they are helping users and take a lot of time to learn and communicate what emulation should be and how it works.
    If you ever visited our forums or discord, you'll realize that those things are as important.
    I'd personally feel uneasy not giving them money from a pool of money if we are cashing out. - I think such work should also not be left unrecognized.
    However: Other people might have different views about this.

    If you don't want any special backer treatment you can feel free to donate through the existing channel:
    If you want to do a monthly donation I'm sure bunnei will work something out with you.
    Again: I *personally* would not recommend donating money to Citra - rather give it to EFF / medical research which probably also benefits us (as human beings / or attack helicopters).

    Citra already does have an official blog.

    I have a private Patreon and know that the Patreon blog system is very lacking in features.
    So at best you'd get a link back to our official blog - I consider the Patreon blogs to be impractical.

    However: Even with a good blog software in place, it's very hard to find enough people willing to actively maintain a blog - if you have an article you can just submit it through GitHub:
    You should realize that writing a good article takes a lot of time: I've been working on one myself and it's already more than a week in the making.
    Our past progress reports took so long to write, that by the time they were finished the features were replaced or months old already.
    So we even have some remaining drafts we never released.

    Dolphin even has dedicated technical minded people as blog writers.
    They've also written for Citra in the past, however, it's nearly impossible to write 2 blog posts (one for Citra, one for Dolphin) per month, even for a dedicated and experienced writing staff.
    (This would be easier if Citra wasn't as rapidly changing / open-source)

    I'll *hopefully* publish my own articles which don't fit on the project blogs on my own blog (currently Patreon but in the future my website).
    In fact, nobody stops anyone from making even a paid blog about Citra. I'd personally like to see this way of monetizing emulation more often (that's a business model / not a donation model though, and it's beneficial for one person only).
    However: as of now, nobody volunteered for this either, despite possible monetary rewards.
    (It's also what I had planned for xqemu: work on the emu for free, but sell articles about ongoing development)

    One way which *is* often monetized and is very similar are YouTube channels.
    Citra does *also* maintain a YouTube channel. However, producing (good) videos takes even longer.
    However, the community is fortunately present to fix this issue on unofficial channels. I personally recommend John 'pcmaker' Godgames: Having worked with him for a long time I feel he is not exploiting Citra to make money, but rather found a good way of monetizing it.
    He is actively supporting development through testing / bug reports and documenting different versions of Citra.
    He also understands that he depends on our work and supports emulation projects and developers (me) via Patreon.

    I agree, I love progress reports (Shoutouts to JMC and the crew).
    So if you are asking for a more active blog: I get that, I also want that.
    However, having Patreon doesn't make this magically happen.

    We have our own infrastructure for everything which Patreon provides (except rewards): We do accept donations and we do have a blog.
    What's lacking is workforce and organization, not money.

    Note that I'm personally responsible that there is a list of merged experimental PRs in the Bleeding Edge README.
    So adjusting these READMEs seemed logical: at least you don't have to click through GitHub anymore.
    I honestly care about the community knowing the current state of development and I'm all for putting stuff in laymans terms.

    As we usually don't have time to flesh things out for a blog article, I'll usually end up explaining various technical topics on Discord (also on request).
    Some people are now starting to write these things down and I hope some of those might become blog writers in the future.
    For now: If you want to know something, join us on the official IRC (recommended if you want to help development) or Discord (recommended if you want things in laymans terms).

    Fair enough, I'm bad at being short and precise.

    My understanding was that you proposed the cemu business model / Patreon to earn money (Donations / Payment, whatever you want to call it).
    I'll repeat: If you want a Patreon without rewards, we already have all of that (just not called Patreon).
    My intention is not to "make shit up" - I'm starting to think this is mostly a misunderstanding about what you have been proposing.

    Money is not necessarily appreciation. It can be, but it doesn't have to.

    Take one of the other devs for example: I'v been coding for hours with him the last couple of days. He currently needs money.
    I'm offering 10 bucks to him so he can replace his broken laptop battery / charger. It's a show of appreciation.
    Regardless of wether I'll give this money to him or not, he'd still continue to work on Citra.

    That dev also recently aquired hardware for Citra which was not paid for by the project.
    Now you might ask: why wasn't it paid for?

    I think this comes down to a handfull of reasons:

    - He'd buy it regardless of the projects financial backing, because it's a passion for him.

    - Why would you ask for money if you can afford it yourself?
    If you wanted it to get some kind of appreciation you'd suddenly be asking for that money / appreciation.
    It defeats the point of being a symbol of appreciation.

    - If money was offered to him, where does it stop?
    Will we buy a new gaming PC for each contributor who asks?
    Would the people who donated for us be fine with this?
    Would the other developers be fine with it?
    It would also need oversight so people don't request money for something they don't end up getting.

    - Who tells us they'll continue to contribute after receiving money or hardware the first time?
    This would be bad for the project as we have to show new developers around the codebase, so introducing a new developer takes time and effort from at least one other developer.
    However, ongoing financial support is not easily possible. We'd probably also need an entire HR department to manage the cashflow.
    In February alone, we had 12 different people working on Citra.
    In January it was 15 different people. (And currently development is rather slow)
    Even if we earned 20k a month (like cemu) with donations, we'd barely be able to pay $1000 per person (that is, without a HR department, forum and website admins taking a cut).
    At that point we'd have to worry about taxes and other legal mumbo jumbo.
    Aside from these legal hurdles, it still wouldn't be enough for anyone to stop their day jobs to pay for rent, food, ...
    They'd probably still devote the same time to Citra as they do now.

    - Why would you ask to be paid for something, which is a hobby?
    If you get paid for it, it stops being a hobby - it becomes work.
    Especially if you are being paid for hardware, you feel obligated to work with it.
    I've talked to a handful of developers who could not handle this. It adds stress to an already stressful hobby.
    We are literally taking 10 hours of our day to work on this project - it's fun, but it's also tiring.
    Why add another stress factor to it?
    (pewdiepie actually made a couple of excellent videos about this)

    I get this. Still no reason to claim that I'm anal about this.
    I'm certainly anal about certain things, but I think here you are just misinterpreting my intentions:
    In *my* posts I state *my* motivation and *my* perception of the situation.
    I'm by no means setting standards anyone else has to adhere to.


    Concluding all of the above, hopefully you can understand why I say: donate to people, not to projects.
    Please use *your* time to follow the project a bit and offload the organizational work of distributing money from us.
    You can decide who works on features *you* care about. You know *who* does work you are interested in.
    You can also decide if you want to pay for acutal work happening, or if you are looking for social donations for people in financial needs (those you mentioned).
    Even if the money arrives at the wrong person or they don't want any, they'll likely know who to give the money to.
    They also know whose work they depend on, so they can themselves decide to split the money fairly.
    You'll also be able to have a more direction connection to show emotional support:
    There's a difference between getting a monthly paycheck from a project OR receiving a handful of them, possibly with personal messages attached.

    - This is a working approach which should be common sense. Unfortunately it isn't (yet).

    The only risk with it, is that some people are more public (like me) or even deceiving and hence will receive more money.
    Hence it also needs a strong community to call out on bullshit (which is what I'm doing with cemu by the way).
    So please also try to look behind the facade and figure out who deserves money and who doesn't (I can certainly think of names here, even within Citra).

    I'll add some closing words about cemu: I'd totally be fine with him earning > $20k a month if he just opened up the source code.
    I'd even be fine with it if we had a guarantee that the source code will be public: exzap could give the source code to a trusted third party to release it if he disappears for whatever reasons.
    - I still wouldn't like the project or it's business model, but I could at least tolerate it.
    Last edited by JayFoxRox, Mar 21, 2017
  6. Satoshi121

    Satoshi121 Advanced Member

    May 14, 2016
    Yorozuya odd jobs
    I get where you're coming from and you get where i'm coming from, so if you're responsible from the community, will Citra keep going as it is ?
  7. JayFoxRox

    JayFoxRox GBAtemp Regular

    May 16, 2016
    Gambia, The
    I'm not "responsible" for the community per-se (nobody really is) - You are literally as much responsible for the community as me :)
    I don't even have a title / badge on the official forums and on discord I only have a special "Role" for technical reasons (which we kind of hide: If you didn't know I was a contributor, you couldn't tell). I felt this is important as to not create the perception of a closed "Team" or "Group". Other developers followed that example and had their Role hidden.

    I only started organizing more and more as I began to care more about the project. Over time I also got a better overview about things which could be improved, who is responsible for different things etc. Most of my work now involves encouraging and supporting people with what they do by giving criticism or forwarding their ideas / bug reports / complaints etc. to the appropriate places.
    (For example: I've just received a PM by @LG_ about a new compatibility list, I'll make sure to direct this to our server admin who has been working on making an official one. I'm also fact-checking forums and YouTube channels and try to help them to improve their videos - I do these things all day long if I'm not busy with private life or coding. Eventually I have good relations to those people and they help with blog articles etc.)

    I'm not sure what you mean by "is going as it is" - but probably: yes.
    Donation wise we'll probably still accept monetary and hardware donations. No Patreon though - but that's not for me to decide either.
    There'll be lots of development, we'll still make sure we aren't involved in anything illegal, we'll still try to grow our community and we'll make it a nice place to be.
    (And as we grow and mature we might find even better ways to shape the community. Hopefully we'll find more people who want to help with the blog and other things)
  8. jroweboy

    jroweboy Advanced Member

    Oct 23, 2016
    United States
    hot dang this thread got derailed. but all of the sudden i wanna offer my useless opinion on the patreon discussion. :)

    Patreon has been discussed. And its been discussed **a lot**. It comes up very often and most of the contributors shy away from discussing money, which makes it really hard to come to a consensus. Last time this came up, bunnei felt like it would be a great idea if there was a way to insert money into citra development, but none of the suggestions so far have been acceptable to bunnei, so it still hasn't happened. We've discussed patreon, bug bounties, and feature bounties to name a few, but each has their own downsides. The TL;DR of these discussions were "until there is some method to add money to the project without making people upset, then its probably not going to happen. Losing valuable contributors is not worth a meager amount of money."

    There are great benefits to patreon, and I'm glad to see people excited for emulators like this. There is a chance that someday, people will come to an agreement on how citra will run a patreon, but currently that hasn't happened. Too many strong opinions from too many directions imo ;)

    For one last tangent, I suspect in the future there will be someone that makes an android port and uses that as full time income. This is more of a hunch/guess and I have no reason to believe this will happen, but citra on android personally sounds like an untapped gold mine if you ask me. If i recall right, hrydgard makes a significant amount of money off the PPSSPP android port.
    julialy, JayFoxRox and AceofZeroz like this.
  9. Emogop

    Emogop Member

    Nov 25, 2016
    Gulag, Siberia
    You guys should have gone to Patreon from the very start. Doing it now makes no sense. Same goes for RPCS3. My opinion - open source code and monetisation are not compatible.
    I'd say all of them are very dedicated and they didn't lost enthusiasm even until today. They even implemented Wii Shop support recently which hasn't any practical meaning -_- Moreover Nintendo despise emulators with all their might. I've read some prank letter that was sent to N support which went like "i cant launch botw on cemu pls help" Do you know what they answered? In addition to we cannot help you bla bla bla they wrote "it is dangerous to let CEMU remain on your PC". With that in mind I doubt users want to buy something from them while they looked upon like trash.
  10. Supermedo

    Supermedo Member

    Jun 12, 2016
    Why? RPCS3 has reached $1,000 a month, allowing the developer to work on it full time.
    I'm pretty sure by having a developer working full time on it more progress will be made and shown which will result in more money through pateron and more developers will contribute to it full time.

    I'm web developer and work with open source tools, all which are sponsored by big companies

    React/Relay/GraphQL are open source made and paid for by Facebook, MySQL is sponsored by oracle, Angular by google..etc

    heck Firefox and Mozilla foundation are not run by passion only, the same thing for ubuntu, the core developers are working on it full time and they are being paid through sponsorship by big enterprises

    Now the idea that IBM has interest in sponsoring an emulator is zero to null so the next big thing is crowd funding.
    Last edited by Supermedo, Mar 22, 2017
    CuriousTommy likes this.
  11. Emogop

    Emogop Member

    Nov 25, 2016
    Gulag, Siberia
    That's really good but there are devs besides Nekotekina. I don't want to count the other people's money but in this case even if one of them will be on a full-time job, it's still meager considering the complexity of PS3 hardware. I really hope Persona 5 for PS3 will somewhat be like BotW for WiiU if you know what I mean.
    Well, I haven't thought of it, keeping in mind emulators and stuff like this.
    Theoretically speaking Intel, AMD and Nvidia could've been sponsoring it and it would make sense since Xenia, Cemu and RPCS3 are highly demanding, especially for CPU power.
  12. JayFoxRox

    JayFoxRox GBAtemp Regular

    May 16, 2016
    Gambia, The
    I won't even comment on the stupidity in the last 3 posts in detail (you are welcome).

    History has clearly shown otherwise + it's something the developers of Citra didn't want.
    If you want to have your own commercial full-time develper powered emulator: find someone and pay him to work on Citra OR start your own project.

    - If you want to discuss monetization in emulation or even open-source in general you should open a new topic.
    By now the discussion doesn't even consider the amazing and rapid progress of Citra or the structure and motivation found in emulation (especially the more successful projects which preserve at this point: Citra, PPSSPP and Dolphin - all of which are open source).
    Clearly all of you are asking for something like official Xbox backwards compatibility, Nintendo Virtual Console or Cemu (which is an entirely different branch of emulation). ..Idiots.
    AceofZeroz likes this.
  13. Supermedo

    Supermedo Member

    Jun 12, 2016
    Chill dude, I don't know why you call me stupid for wanting to know why Emogop thought open source code and monetization are not compatible.

    that it, it wasn't about you or citra and you made your opinion clear in last two long posts you posted to Satoshi121, just chill really

    Jesus why every emu dev so aggressive but what do I know I'm just an idioit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Anyway this is my last post so I don't derail the thread anymore.
    Last edited by Supermedo, Mar 22, 2017
  14. fungumars

    fungumars Newbie

    Mar 18, 2017
    to much freetime lol
  15. gbatempaccount

    gbatempaccount Advanced Member

    Oct 22, 2016
    United States
    So is there any semi-recent version of citra that will run mario and luigi paper jam without crashing? Is there any way to circumvent the crash at the intro at all?
  16. GeorgeMcormick

    GeorgeMcormick Member

    Mar 24, 2017
    United States
    I feel like you should make a 3dsx FBI, for 11.3, I kind of feel bad for all the kids who updated without knowing. I know this may or may not be possible, but it's worth a try in my book. Or, we could let them deal with the consequences.
  17. Miguel Gomez

    Miguel Gomez GBAtemp Addict

    Jan 10, 2016
    Planet Earth
    Last build that Paper Jab boots without crash was March 2016 build which was last year. Leo121 once made that build. Right now, the original link was removed and I'm sure he doesn't have the files for the older builds anymore. So don't dare to PM him for builds. Alright?
    Wrong thread m8. This is Citra Emulator thread. Not FBI thread.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    Also, even if you install FBI.3dsx on your Homebrew, it's still won't make others work without LumaCFW.
    Last edited by Miguel Gomez, Mar 24, 2017
  18. JayFoxRox

    JayFoxRox GBAtemp Regular

    May 16, 2016
    Gambia, The
    Looking at the GPL, he must be able to provide the source code still (I think, not sure if this doesn't apply when shipping source with binary).
    NiagA likes this.
  19. Feroz El Mejor

    Feroz El Mejor GBAtemp Fan

    Jan 26, 2014
    Villa Raíz (Hoenn)
    Can we use amiibo on citra at this moment?
  20. Miguel Gomez

    Miguel Gomez GBAtemp Addict

    Jan 10, 2016
    Planet Earth
    Nope. Not yet. :(
    Feroz El Mejor likes this.