‘Transgender’ Could Be Defined Out of Existence Under Trump Administration

bi388 · Oct 23, 2018

CORE said:
@bi388
Until they Regret and want to go back Prevention is better than Mistake.
It is not a Box of Lego it is a Human Being.

What percentage of people take transition drugs/surgery and end up regretting it? I know it happens but how common is it really, any reliable studies? And even if people regret it, I believe in peoples right to make decisions they may regret. The gov shouldnt stop you.

TheArcuzHunter · Oct 23, 2018

Ev1l0rd said:
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html

Couple of highlights:

--

My take: so yeah, this is uh... Bad. With the capital B. This would pretty much eradicate someone being trans in America on a legal perspective. The act seems driven by little more than pettiness and religious pushing. (America is totally secular guys.)

Fuck Trump and the group of idiots that came with him.

I don't know how say this more clearly (if that's how you say it, sorry, bilingual and english isn't my main), but even if it makes you happy,it doesnt mean its right, even if you want people to accept the way you want to be, you can't, because it isn't right in God's Sight. I know what you might think. "Religious crap, get it out of here!", "God is dead", "God doesn't exist!", "God is a lie/myth we keep telling ourselves to feel safe/comfortable", But I believe in God, and everyone can tell their opinion and this can go on forever. God created Adam and Eve, not Adamella and Evoy, it's in the Bible. "That's funny, to base yourself off of the Bible!", "I bet you have sinned!" yes, we all have sinned and we all will , every single person because we aren't perfect and we will never be "On Earth" but we can try to be like Jesus, and that fact doesn't give us the right to keep sinning or to do it in the first place "Because God will forgive me anytime I want". We can all repent. We can all change. Don't pretend someone you aren't. You were born the way you were born, period. If you identify as something or someone you weren't born as, you are defying God, so cease it, repent. If you stop it, you will be forgiven. Even I have thought that God doesn't exist (lots of times), but at the end I come back to him. If you have questions of this matter, talk to me or to an LDS (not LSD) member, and don't explain anything to them, just ask "Can I talk to the Bishop or the Missionaries please" and they will guide you to them, and they will give you tips/guidance/ and the help you need (don't tell your sins to the Missionaries, just to the Bishop, he will know what to do and help you out).
If you feel the guilt/shame deep inside you, do as I recommend you to do. Me? I'm just another LDS member. I'm doing my duty. I try my best.
You don't feel guilt/shame at all? I'll pray for you to understand this message so that it can reach your mind and soul, to be straightened in the path of God.as I said, I'm not perfect. I'm not superior TO ANY OF YOU! I'm just someone who is trying to do some good in his life,and to all of you triggered transgenders, I didn't mean to. I'm trying to help you out, that's all. Goodnight!
Edit: yes, I feel bad for saying that, but it's the truth, and the truth hurts.
YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE, THEREFORE YOU SHALL NOT PUT IMPURITIES IN IT, NEITHER REMOVE ANYTHING FROM IT (Perforations, tattoos, man earrings,etc those are all against God too).

x65943 · Oct 23, 2018

Haloman800 said:
What happened to the Democrats/left being the party of science? Biologically, there are two genders, male and female.

>inb4 intersex

There are extremely small deviations from the 'norm, but in the same way that we say "humans have 5 digits per hand", even though there are people with 6 fingers, there are only two genders. Deal with it.

They distinguish between sex and gender

Sex = penis or vagina
Gender = (here is where it gets hairy)

Some people think gender is a social construct, others think it is the way your brain is innately set up to think

Personally there is inadequate evidence to support either idea - so it's hard to say if gender really is a hardcoded phenomenon or simply social conditioning. People will bring up brain scans, but those studies had small sample sizes and found female presenting afab individuals with "masculine appearing brains".

I think if we just let people act how they want and not police.anyone's personal life - we would be in good shape.

SG854 · Oct 23, 2018

x65943 said:
They distinguish between sex and gender

Sex = penis or vagina
Gender = (here is where it gets hairy)

Some people think gender is a social construct, others think it is the way your brain is innately set up to think

Personally there is inadequate evidence to support either idea - so it's hard to say if gender really is a hardcoded phenomenon or simply social conditioning. People will bring up brain scans, but those studies had small sample sizes and found female presenting afab individuals with "masculine appearing brains".

I think if we just let people act how they want and not police.anyone's personal life - we would be in good shape.

Actually not true. Gender is not a social construct. There is plenty of evidence for this. Watch the video in my post #144 on page 8.

bi388 · Oct 23, 2018

Haloman800 said:
What happened to the Democrats/left being the party of science? Biologically, there are two genders, male and female.

>inb4 intersex

There are extremely small deviations from the 'norm, but in the same way that we say "humans have 5 digits per hand", even though there are people with 6 fingers, there are only two genders. Deal with it.

Numerous studies support the existence of transgender people
https://bigthink.com/mike-colagross...ign-with-rather-than-what-they-were-born-with

x65943 · Oct 23, 2018

SG854 said:
Actually not true. Gender is not a social construct. There is plenty of evidence for this. Watch the video in my post #144 on page 8.

Watched your video, she had one piece of data - in the entire video

1. Grey/white matter and another morphological difference

Here is the issue - these are just gross anatomical differences with absolutely no understanding of how that might affect functionality. Hardly proving gender is not a social construct.

Sheimi · Oct 23, 2018

lexluth0r said:
Good it’s a serious mental condition that needs to be addressed

explain how it is a serious mental condition by using non bigoted sources. enlighten me. because i am very interested to be proven wrong about me being trans

SG854 · Oct 23, 2018

x65943 said:
Watched your video, she had one piece of data - in the entire video

1. Grey/white matter and another morphological difference

Here is the issue - these are just gross anatomical differences with absolutely no understanding of how that might affect functionality. Hardly proving gender is not a social construct.

Its not just that one piece. There is lots of other evidence that its not a social construct in addition to that. I've also read much of the research myself and come to that same conclusion. Why not train trans people to stop being trans? Pray the trans away. I mean after all, its all a construct.

Hanafuda · Oct 23, 2018

SG854 said:
Actually not true. Gender is not a social construct. There is plenty of evidence for this. Watch the video in my post #144 on page 8.

The idea of "sex" and "gender" being different, distinguishable things most certainly is a social construct, which effectively never existed in Western culture until the 1970's, and then only among radical feminists. Whether you believe in this thought process or not, you could discuss this with anyone from before 1970 and they would think you're fucking nuts. After 1970 until about 10 years ago, only 90% of the people you spoke to would think you're fucking nuts.

Please read about "Sexologist" John Money and how he invented the modern usage of the word "gender." Until mid-70's sociologists looking for a way to justify more courses in their department latched onto Money's theory, humans with a penis were males, and humans with vaginas were female, PERIOD. Next, read about how Dr. Money totally fucked up David Reimer in childhood with a sex reassignment attempt in infancy, took photos of Reimer and his twin brother in nude, simulated sex acts as small children, etc., and how Reimer eventually committed suicide because of his life being ruined by the guy who came up with this mess of thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories. However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Reimer said that Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Reimer said that Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".

Sheimi · Oct 23, 2018

bi388 said:
What percentage of people take transition drugs/surgery and end up regretting it? I know it happens but how common is it really, any reliable studies? And even if people regret it, I believe in peoples right to make decisions they may regret. The gov shouldnt stop you.

2.2% regret it.

SG854 · Oct 23, 2018

Hanafuda said:
This idea of "sex" and "gender" being different, distinguishable things most certainly is a social construct, which effectively never existed in Western culture until the 1970's, and then only among radical feminists. Whether you believe in this thought process or not, you could discuss this with anyone from before 1970 and they would think you're fucking nuts. After 1970 until about 10 years ago, only 90% of the people you spoke to would think you're fucking nuts.

Please read about "Sexologist" John Money and how he invented the modern usage of the word "gender." Until mid-70's sociologists looking for a way to justify more courses in their department latched onto Money's theory, humans with a penis were males, and humans with vaginas were female, PERIOD. Next, read about how Dr. Money totally fucked up John Reimer in childhood with a sex reassignment attempt in infancy, took photos of Reimer and his twin brother in nude, simulated sex acts as small children, etc., and how Reimer eventually committed suicide because of his life being ruined by the guy who came up with this mess of thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

So what your saying is people believed sex and gender were the same thing, until recently when feminist came out with pseudo science to try to justify their ideology. This I knew. But it contradicts with transgenderism, which is what happens when your beliefs are grounded in ideology rather than factual reality. A cognitive dissonance forms.

Women lactate and carry babies in the womb. And women's brains would be structured through evolution to help achieve these tasks of raising children and breast feeding. It would be ridiculous to think male and female brains are the same. And that gender is a construct.

osaka35 · Oct 23, 2018

I'm so sorry our public school system failed ya'll.

Let me just say, discovery of something before unknown or ill-defined, does not negate its reality. If you want to go on "history" as a means to establish such things, Native Americans have traditionally a third gender, called "two-spirit" (Berdache being an older term, but I hear this is not a pleasant term). Point is, this isn't some new development in humanity. It is newly defined and explored, but not a new development. We're just finally realizing what's going on. Which can be confusing if you don't know much about the situation. It's important to learn about it, rather than instantly dismiss it as silly. Try and understand why someone would feel this makes sense, try and read their logic and their perspective. Then argue about it lol.

seren3 said:
Okay, so you're a college student. Great. I'm a small business owner, so you know, I actually have a job, and make money. You can get a PhD in Gender Studies too, that doesn't mean you contribute to society.

I have looked into it. First off, most of my family is in the military - my dad is a Major in the Army, and my brother is in the Marines. I talk to them about this kind of stuff a lot.

You know, I spent a good amount of time writing up a refutation to your argument, and I know I'm correct, believe me, nothing makes me more depressed than knowing that I'm pretty much always correct, but I just don't feel like it's safe for me to continue posting with what I want to say. You're a moderator and you use feminist words. I have very little doubt in my mind that your reluctance to be intellectually honest is directly related to your desire to demerit me for something over your personal politics - and I won't give you that satisfaction.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Not sure at what point I was ever intellectually dishonest. Please point it out to me if you can cite anything in particular. And what you call "feminist words" I call "normal words used by ethical people".

You attack my education as if it's a negative in an argument about biology, psychology, and instructional design, but use 2nd and 3rd hand experiences as better-than-science proof? It's probably best to re-evaluate how you arrive at being correct.

And while I appreciate your concern, I would never use my position to silence or negatively influence your status. I cannot defend the disenfranchised and then abuse my power when someone disagrees with me. Goes against everything I stand for, not to mention the spirit of this forum. No, you can insult me all you like and I will refuse to do anything beyond point out the flaws in your logic. Another admin might step in if you get personal, but I would be against it even then. Conflict of interest for me to decide on such things.

SG854 said:
So what your saying is people believed sex and gender were the same thing, until recently when feminist came out with pseudo science to try to justify their ideology. This I knew. But it contradicts with transgenderism, which is what happens when your beliefs are grounded in ideology rather than factual reality. A cognitive dissonance forms.

Women lactate and carry babies in the womb. And women's brains would be structured through evolution to help achieve these tasks of raising children and breast feeding. It would be ridiculous to think male and female brains are the same. And that gender is a construct.

"it should be" is not the same thing as "it is". Just because it makes sense to you doesn't mean that's how the world actually works. A foundational aspect of science. All our research shows that males and females don't get different brains. They get the same brain. Hormones, and many other variables, are what contribute to the differences between people. It's easier to think of variations more as 99% variation between individuals, and 1% between sexes. Or, put simply, pretty much all differences can be attribute to individual and environmental differences, rather than those based on sex. Generally, women are taught to prioritize and learn different things than men, and this easily accounts for the perceived "natural" differences mentally and cognitively.Even physically, you have more tendencies, and "on average", than you do certainties.

Even if this wasn't the case, there still wouldn't be the strong distinction you believe exist. Biology is a lot lot more fuzzy in how it does things than most people give it credit for. Nature is quite happy with a "good enough" approach.

bi388 · Oct 23, 2018

seren3 said:
I have looked into it. First off, most of my family is in the military - my dad is a Major in the Army, and my brother is in the Marines. I talk to them about this kind of stuff a lot.

I know I'm correct, believe me, nothing makes me more depressed than knowing that I'm pretty much always correct

Great so I guess your family then has actual statistics and studies proving your argument then? Because otherwise its just conjecture and fear mongering. As for that last part, how narcissistic and delusional can you be, you basically said youre always right and no one else recognizes your true genius.

DBlaze · Oct 23, 2018

x65943 said:
I think if we just let people act how they want and not police.anyone's personal life - we would be in good shape.

I really doubt it, people are fucked up.

Freezerbomb · Oct 23, 2018

The age on my birth certificate says I'm 30, but I identify as 8. Why is it legal for schools discriminate against me when I try to enroll in 2nd grade? Why can't my government issued ID have the age I identify with?

The scale says my weight is 350 pounds, but I identify as 120 pounds. Why is it legal for the roller coaster operator to discriminate against me? Why can't my government issued ID have the weight I identify with?

The photo on my Drivers's license shows a white dude, but I identify as a furry. Why is it legal for the MVD to discriminate against taking a photo in my fursuit? Why can't my government issued ID have the photo I identify with?

The bank says my credit score is bad, but I identify as having good credit. Why is it legal for the bank to refuse me a credit card? Why can't my credit reports have the score I identify with?

Is there something wrong with my argument? Or is it sound? Is this different than the gender debate? I'm genuinely curious.

FAST6191 · Oct 23, 2018

Freezerbomb said:
The age on my birth certificate says I'm 30, but I identify as 8. Why is it legal for schools discriminate against me when I try to enroll in 2nd grade? Why can't my government issued ID have the age I identify with?

The scale says my weight is 350 pounds, but I identify as 120 pounds. Why is it legal for the roller coaster operator to discriminate against me? Why can't my government issued ID have the weight I identify with?

The photo on my Drivers's license shows a white dude, but I identify as a fury. Why is it legal for the MVD to discriminate against taking a photo in my fursuit? Why can't my government issued ID have the photo I identify with?

The bank says my credit score is bad, but I identify as having good credit. Why is it legal for the bank to refuse me a credit card? Why can't my credit reports have the score I identify with?

Is there something wrong with my argument? Or is it sound? Is this different than the gender debate? I'm genuinely curious.

Yes there is.

Generally a belief is a statement of your mind, a statement on reality, much less one that really could have an impact on another, is a very different matter.

I might think your wife looks like a troll, and a bad one at that, but as beauty is a statement of your mind and I don't live there it is a different matter. I do however live in the universe and a statement on reality there is something that could affect me or someone that did not agree to be part of the game you might be playing at the time.

School wise it gets a bit interesting (short version they reckon they only have so much obligation, after that on your head be it), weight wise should be obvious, your driving licence would act as a form of ID so I guess you could do it from the waist down or possibly get it classified as a religion (see King Arthur in the UK), your credit score is a measure of your financial abilities (or gullibility as the case may be) and it is used to measure risk for a loan.

If we take gender as the product of your own head (I would generally operate under sex = your biology, which may change in the future when genetics gets better but not quite yet, gender = what your head says, for myself I would also allow the option for people to nominally change the former, a serious thing to do and again would take a medic, but that is a slightly different discussion) then it falls under that paradigm.

As for giving hormones to kids it is a very hard one from where I sit, and the sort of thing we have medical ethics be something as involved as it is for. On the one hand it is a very hard decision and while someone might tell "I always knew" everything I know of developmental psychology says hold on now, to say nothing of the far from non zero "failure" rate in the living as part of the traditional hormones+living as+counselling model, and as also mentioned it is somewhat uncharted territory as far as resulting chemical effects* and even the cost of it all (not a cheap hobby). On the other then the resulting efficacy of treatment can be theoretically increased, to say nothing of potentially subjecting people unnecessarily to years, formative years at that, of unpleasantness.

*as ever the choice places to start to look are injury, aberrations and maladies. I am sure there are some kids out there in the world with excised sex organs, unintentional treatments, certain conditions that are relevant here and more besides. Tell me something about those.

barronwaffles · Oct 23, 2018

osaka35 said:
All our research shows that males and females don't get different brains. They get the same brain. Hormones, and many other variables, are what contribute to the differences between people

I'm sorry, but what? There's plenty of papers covering the differences observed on average between the sexes in regards to both the structure and processing pathways - to wave that away as simply being a result of 'hormones and other variables' when those variables are often intrinsically related to sex is absurd.

Hanafuda · Oct 23, 2018

SG854 said:
So what your saying is people believed sex and gender were the same thing, until recently when feminist came out with pseudo science to try to justify their ideology. This I knew. But it contradicts with transgenderism, which is what happens when your beliefs are grounded in ideology rather than factual reality. A cognitive dissonance forms.

Women lactate and carry babies in the womb. And women's brains would be structured through evolution to help achieve these tasks of raising children and breast feeding. It would be ridiculous to think male and female brains are the same. And that gender is a construct.

Ok you and I may not be far apart, and I think I misunderstood your meaning in your earlier post. If you read the quote above from Wikipedia about John Money (or just go read the whole article, or find other sources about him, etc) it says before he came along the word "gender" was rarely used except for reference to "grammatical categories." Like when you take Spanish and learn how certain words (and the particles to go with them) are male or female. There was no distinctive meaning to "gender" that could be distinguished from the male and female sexes, and there certainly was no concept that a person could be of one sex, but another gender.

This is all just something one very pervy freaky Mad Scientist came up with in his head. But, a lot of people have obviously latched on to it, and I'm more or less libertarian, so have at it. Free country and all that. I don't want the government defining this stuff - there shouldn't even be a "HHS" regulatory agency in the first place. But the root of the problem here (what this thread is about) is that Title IX should never have been interpreted to apply to transgenderism (Thanks Obama). The statute says "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." It applies only to discrimination due to one's biological sex.

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, this is just the history of this belief/theory - one man came up with it about 65 years ago, and it caught like a religious wildfire. And people defend it as fervently as religion, too.

NeoSlyde · Oct 23, 2018

Great !

shadoom · Oct 23, 2018

Points at butterfly
Is this a gaming related thread?

Localhorst86 · Oct 23, 2018

shadoom said:
Points at butterfly
Is this a gaming related thread?

it's in the "World New, Current Events & Politics" section. Doesn't need to be gaming related.

‘Transgender’ Could Be Defined Out of Existence Under Trump Administration

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i can be your sega dreamcast or sega nightmarecast

Hail Mary

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i can be your sega dreamcast or sega nightmarecast

A cute Vixen!

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A cute Vixen!

Hail Mary

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I don't know what i'm doing.

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Let us start the game

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Robert'); DROP TABLE members;--

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