Hacking So up to what gen do you think Switch can emulate?

guily6669 · Mar 26, 2018

The problem on the switch is really the CPU, you can buy a huge amount of cheap smartphones with way better CPU...

If you fully mod the Switch with way more cooling and we could OC it to at least Nvidia Shield specs it would increase the emulation capabilities with GPU at 1ghz and CPU at 2ghz

I'm thinking the Devs will have to extensively use Nvidia Cuda cores to speed up processing the code...

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Regarding OC in the PC, well my old Asus huge 3 slot GTX570 could go factory from 732mhz to 910 with a flashed bios bith more voltage unlocked and I still have the GPU working and it never go beyond 80C° with fans around 60 - 70% and it's also not as loud as like a single crap RX480 with the original AMD reference design, I had one and it couldn't even reach achieved clocks, it was above 90C° and super loud, big crap..

I could play games at ultra 1080 that my GPU didn't even had minimum system requirements like Star wars, all ultra just shadows to normal and no AA at 1080p it run mostly around 60fps, just had a random stuttering from time to time because of low memory only 1.25GB of Vram...

Also my I7 2600K is at 4.9ghz on a air cooler with no fancy water running on it...

It basically gives almost the single thread performance of I7 7700K and around a 4th gen I7 on full multi-thread performance, so it makes me play games that run at around 30 - 40 to around 60fps.

I only upgraded the GPU once on this 2011 PC to a Asus Strix RX480 now flashed to 580.

Deleted User · Mar 26, 2018

guily6669 said:
The problem on the switch is really the CPU, you can buy a huge amount of cheap smartphones with way better CPU...

If you fully mod the Switch with way more cooling and we could OC it to at least Nvidia Shield specs it would increase the emulation capabilities with GPU at 1ghz and CPU at 2ghz

I'm thinking the Devs will have to extensively use Nvidia Cuda cores to speed up processing the code...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding OC in the PC, well my old Asus huge 3 slot GTX570 could go factory from 732mhz to 910 with a flashed bios bith more voltage unlocked and I still have the GPU working and it never go beyond 80C° with fans around 60 - 70% and it's also not as loud as like a single crap RX480 with the original AMD reference design, I had one and it couldn't even reach achieved clocks, it was above 90C° and super loud, big crap..

I could play games at ultra 1080 that my GPU didn't even had minimum system requirements like Star wars, all ultra just shadows to normal and no AA at 1080p it run mostly around 60fps, just had a random stuttering from time to time because of low memory only 1.25GB of Vram...

Also my I7 2600K is at 4.9ghz on a air cooler with no fancy water running on it...

It basically gives almost the single thread performance of I7 7700K and around a 4th gen I7 on full multi-thread performance, so it makes me play games that run at around 30 - 40 to around 60fps.

I only upgraded the GPU once on this 2011 PC to a Asus Strix RX480 now flashed to 580.

That's not at all what CUDA is used for. Much of emulation is inherently incompatible with parallel computing. CUDA isn't just one big general purpose CPU, don't just hand wave terms as if they're magic solutions.

TheCyberQuake · Mar 26, 2018

UnsureSherlock said:
That's not at all what CUDA is used for. Much of emulation is inherently incompatible with parallel computing. CUDA isn't just one big general purpose CPU, don't just hand wave terms as if they're magic solutions.

Based on their previous post, that user doesn't really have a full grasp on how these technologies operates. To be fair though most users who aren't extreme techies or have a career in the tech industry won't have a good grasp on these concepts because they simply don't have the education on these concepts.

survive9 · Mar 26, 2018

I want High Sierra on my switch while were at it

TotalInsanity4 · Mar 26, 2018

survive9 said:
I want High Sierra on my switch while were at it

MikaDubbz · Mar 26, 2018

I believe the Switch will be able to run Gamecube and Wii games through a virtual console-like service, likely utilizing the same or similar technology that recently brought Gamecube and Wii games to the Nvidia Shield in China. Now, having said that, I do not believe the likes of the PS2 or OG Xbox will see emulators on the Switch through homebrew despite being from the same gen, these machines are just much more complicated than the classic systems that are so easy to emulate. However, I can see the scene finding out how the Gamecube and Wii games work, and then be able to inject other games into officially released titles, to allow us to play most of the libraries from the Gamecube and Wii despite how many games Nintendo does or does not officially release for the virtual console. But looking beyond Nintendo systems, the latest I think you could hope for from emulation is the PS1, the PSP, and maybe the Dreamcast.

guily6669 · Mar 27, 2018

TheCyberQuake said:
Based on their previous post, that user doesn't really have a full grasp on how these technologies operates. To be fair though most users who aren't extreme techies or have a career in the tech industry won't have a good grasp on these concepts because they simply don't have the education on these concepts.

Well I only learned a bit of c++ a few time ago, but I never cared much for coding, only learned a bit to make cheats on the pc and a bit of Uscript for a unreal engine 2 based game that we had the compiler...

I saw was in a forum the code for speeding up code processing on apps by using the GPU to process the data a bit faster, using Nvidia cuda cores\sofware I just think maybe someone could actually use them to aid the processing code?

But I only know the idea of how it works not exactly how it works on coding of apps as I only made a few crap apps on my course and forget all about c++...

JellyPerson · Mar 27, 2018

tl;dr we'll see when we get there

EclipseSin · Mar 27, 2018

PS2/Wii and below. Idk about DC and shit though. That's just based on specs alone/considered though. It comes down to port proficiency and/or something built from the ground up for the platform (which sometimes works better).

So you can port everything over from Dolphin (for example), but it could be better to just build "onto" the system available using native shit instead of porting your existing code to the "acceptable binary".

This in no way is to say these developers are lazy, both require tons of work and have different pros and cons. You can't always have the best. It's unfortunate, but that's why emulators have hacks, even official ones. The most accurate emulators require power, check out BSNES and you will understand. Accuracy over performance.

Captain_N · Mar 27, 2018

CeeDee said:
It's a bit more powerful than the Wii U, so I'd say N64 and DS are feasible. GC/Wii and 3DS would probably stretch it, but maybe.

I'd say its more then a bit. The switch in portable mode is more powerful then a wii u....

Deleted User · Mar 27, 2018

guily6669 said:
Well I only learned a bit of c++ a few time ago, but I never cared much for coding, only learned a bit to make cheats on the pc and a bit of Uscript for a unreal engine 2 based game that we had the compiler...

I saw was in a forum the code for speeding up code processing on apps by using the GPU to process the data a bit faster, using Nvidia cuda cores\sofware I just think maybe someone could actually use them to aid the processing code?

But I only know the idea of how it works not exactly how it works on coding of apps as I only made a few crap apps on my course and forget all about c++...

Well a quick lesson then: many tasks in programming are not applicable in parallel processing scenarios. A linear script of expressions and assignments, for example, have each step depending on the prior. With parallel computing, you can execute many things at once, but only if the necessary data is available.

So an analogy: Tom and Steve. Steve needs to unpack a box and put the contents on a shelf. Tom's job is to go out and retrieve said box from somewhere else and then give it to Steve. There's no logical way that Steve could possibly unpack that box and do his job until Tom has already done his own job.

That's the nature of linear or serial computing, where processing occurs in a (relatively) deterministic fashion.

Parallel processing is if both Steve and Tom hired a 3rd person: Kelly. Kelly's job is to go get boxes as fast as possible and bring them to Steve and Tom. Steve and Tom's job are now to unpack those boxes. Boxes of type A go onto Steve's shelf, and type B go onto Tom's shelf.

Now, this is a general overview of parallel computing, which is applicable to multi-threading on a general purpose CPU. CUDA on the other hand is even less general purpose and limited in its scope. What it is designed for it does very well, but it's not meant to be seen as an offload for CPU work, nor could it function so.

To kind of bring this into a more contextually relevant light: emulation historically has been a serial computation task. While certain aspects can certainly be offloaded to the GPU (in other words, graphics), the main work done by the CPU of the emulated system is too general to be handled in a parallel manner (and even if it could, it would be a monumental task), and certainly not by a GPU (ditto).

Think of it like this: A CPU is excellent for tons of small tasks. It has many ways of dealing with them, a small number of very fast spaces to put stuff, and can switch between any task it's doing very quickly. Like a car, you can stay on the road you're on, or quickly turn down a side street, see a friend, and then take a different route back to the original road.

A GPU is like an airplane with a couple of stopovers. It hauls ass, but it can't make dozens of quick turns, dropoffs, and pickups.

guily6669 · Mar 27, 2018

I know all of that, I know how the GPU works Vs the CPU, I'm just thinking if there's really no way to put some part of the emulation code being processed in the GPU and others on the CPU... I don't know if it's possible.

I have seen in other forums ppl using a code provided from Nvidia and using their apps processed by the cuda cores to aid processing fast in parallel computing. I was just thinking if parts of the calculations can't go to the GPU since the Tegra in the switch has been reduced a lot, specially the CPU cores at like half the clocks of the original tetra X1...

PS2 is not looking much good on Nvidia shield TV, I'm thinking on switch will probably run lot worse.

Deleted User · Mar 27, 2018

guily6669 said:
I know all of that, I know how the GPU works Vs the CPU, I'm just thinking if there's really no way to put some part of the emulation code being processed in the GPU and others on the CPU... I don't know if it's possible.

I have seen in other forums ppl using a code provided from Nvidia and using their apps processed by the cuda cores to aid processing fast in parallel computing. I was just thinking if parts of the calculations can't go to the GPU since the Tegra in the switch has been reduced a lot, specially the CPU cores at like half the clocks of the original tetra X1...

PS2 is not looking much good on Nvidia shield TV, I'm thinking on switch will probably run lot worse.

If you already knew all that, then you already know the answer. Which is: no, not really. Maybe minor portions, but with no real worthwhile effect on performance especially considering the effort required vs. net return.

Noctosphere · Mar 27, 2018

Switch is gen 9 and ps4 is gen 8
so... switch should be able to emulate ps4, does it?

On a more serious note, I think the max we could get out of the switch is maybe ps2 if we manage to overclock the cpu
But I'm a noob, so maybe im saying shit

MeowMeowMeow · Mar 27, 2018

Wtf guys ps2? Even most recent pc's have problems running the emu fullspeed.

Noctosphere · Mar 27, 2018

MeowMeowMeow said:
Wtf guys ps2? Even most recent pc's have problems running the emu fullspeed.

I said maybe, mainly because the nintendo hacking scene is huge
I'm sure we could get more optimisation than on PC and get around a playable framerate

But maybe it's just noob shit

Whatnoww · Mar 27, 2018

The Switch could perfectly run NDS and 3DS games considering all three consoles are ARM based, so even natively running them is feasible.

notimp · Mar 27, 2018

brickmii82 said:
I don’t wanna derail the topic too much farther(are we? This does fall into the subject matter indirectly, right?) but at 4K resolutions or on the hashrate measurement those extra cycles make a huge difference for me on my rigs. I have a 5 GPU miner and that extra 10-15 mh/s adds up to a lot. You mentioned that it makes sense for miners so I’d have to agree with you vehemently lol. My other rig is a media workstation/gaming rig with a Ryzen 1700 with a 240mm AIO and a Seahawk 1070 on a custom cooling loop. I don’t know if this goes against your argument or defends it as liquid cooling changes thermal parameters, but at 4K the OC I can get on that 1070 and 1700 together takes framerates up from around 35-40 to 50-60. The Ryzen is at 4.0ghz and stock is 3.0. The 1070 is at 2125 on the core clock and 4200 on the memory, stock is 1850 and 3750 respectively. I do also do a lot of video rendering on it so I guess it falls into that part too, but idk. I suppose with the Switch it really couldn’t make THAT much of a difference to possibly not even be noticeable. I still think they’ll get good PS1 performance out of it though.

Its a good contrast to my firmly held believe, thats for sure..

Ryzen and 1070 are a good mid market cross section, OC results of +40% are unbelievably high though. As in "unbelievably high".

So it must be the watercooling..

In regards to currentgen and last gen nVidia GPU card designs, they have "comparatively" low energy consumption, so there might be a higher ceilings, yet every aftermarket card (factory overclocked) tends to push 70°C under load, and does nowhere near promise 40% performance improvement results.

Also - for what you put into aftermarket cooling equipment you'd probably not have gotten the next step up (because of insane price developments on the GPU market), so overclocking all of a sudden makes so much sense...

Except that it still doesnt.

First, it is not the solution here.

(Semi portable device, tablet form factor)

Second - who exactly out there do you expect, replaces GPU and memory heatsinks and coolers? With high performance watercooling parts.. (apparently connected to barnsize fans on the outside of the system..

)

But I'll look into conventional Ryzen and current gen GTX overclocking results, to be able to make a comparison.

Have fun laundering money for the mob, (ITS A JOKE - partly..

)

n.

reddit thread showing most 1070 owners in there getting overclocks of 60-100Mhz, not close to 300 (although some do - and those reportedly use big 3 fan variants of that card):
https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/5yle3p/maximum_stable_overclock_of_gtx_1070/

300Mhz in your case would be a boost of 25% which in your representation leads to a framerate boost of 40%... Details..

My assessment of 5-10 frames, also operates in the "realm" of 25% max (50 + 25%= 62) but argues, that thats the high end, and no what people should expect reliably.

Ryzen looks, like it could handle OCs around what you are describing, with good aftermarket cooling. And yes, that will be noticible. Which brings us back to the point, that no game publisher designs games with 4+Ghz CPU cores in mind. That "magic target" was and still is a faint dream for the entire industry for about 12 years now..

TotalInsanity4 · Mar 27, 2018

notimp said:
Ryzen and 1070 are a good mid market cross section, OC results of +40% are unbelievably high though. As in "unbelievably high". So it must be the watercooling..

You'd be surprised, back in the days before Intel locked bclock overclocking to strictly K series CPUs, there were folks that could get bus speeds up to 200mHz on water, which is equivalent to a 100% overclock. These days, a bit of luck with the silicone and a decent air cooler, 40% is definitely not an outlandish number

guily6669 · Mar 27, 2018

That's what I got with my 2011 260eur I7 2600K, it's at 4.9ghz on air at high temp and higher voltage than most use and it's still alive surprisingly

Same for my old GTX570 at 1.2V from 732 to 910mhz...

Hacking So up to what gen do you think Switch can emulate?

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