PS Vita suffers yet another sales humiliation

Foxi4

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You might be good at justifying your implied future purchase, but don't use arguments that involve development logistics (neither financial nor code-related)

just

don't.

For the sanity of those who do know what they're talking about.
And you for one obviously have the vaguest idea of what's being discussed, hum?

The truth is that games are usually made to reach the peak potential of a given platform (unless they're meant to be mini-games), and if they're multiplat, some cuts need to be made on platforms that are weaker. Those include minor engine tweaks, lowering the resolution of textures or the complexity of models, but those changes are there, and if you disagree to this simple truth then it's likely that we have nothing to talk about, really.

"Bigger/Stronger is better" in the eyes of a developer, and that's that.
 

Mangofett

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You might be good at justifying your implied future purchase, but don't use arguments that involve development logistics (neither financial nor code-related)

just

don't.

For the sanity of those who do know what they're talking about.
And you for one obviously have the vaguest idea of what's being discussed, hum?

The truth is that games are usually made to reach the peak potential of a given platform (unless they're meant to be mini-games), and if they're multiplat, some cuts need to be made on platforms that are weaker. Those include minor engine tweaks, lowering the resolution of textures or the complexity of models, but those changes are there, and if you disagree to this simple truth then it's likely that we have nothing to talk about, really.

"Bigger/Stronger is better" in the eyes of a developer, and that's that.
Oh yeah? Is that why companies dread moving onto new platforms and often lose tons of employees in the process? Is that why the superior hardware of the PS3 meant that PS3 versions of games were superior?

The complex/better hardware makes the development process more convoluted, therefore more costly.

Multiplatform games generally start out on the weaker platform (exception: games starting out as exclusive and move to other platforms). Look at this generation for example. 360 has inferior hardware to the PS3, yet in their earlier years PS3 had always inferior versions of multiplatform games (GTA4 anyone?)

You don't even have to be a developer to realise that your "simple truth" is much more deep than it appears to be.

And besides... you contradicted yourself anyway. If your claim of games are made to be run at the peak of their hardware is true, this means that more resources have to be made and more code has to be written for this to happen. (This would be a "simple truth" of development.) And earlier you said that the increased power of the platform would not raise development costs, because they have more room to work in. But how is this possible if games are made to run at the peak fo their hardware? It's not. derp.

I don't know what you do for a living, but you're obviously not a developer or a manager. If you really want to know my qualifications on speaking for this matter I'll be pompous and list them.
 

DiscostewSM

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I'm pretty sure that when developing anything, you have to start somewhere, and starting at the bottom with just the necessities and going up from there is the logical choice. throwing everything at it and then working your way through development by cutting out content is just a waste of time.
 

Foxi4

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And besides... you contradicted yourself anyway. If your claim of games are made to be run at the peak of their hardware is true, this means that more resources have to be made and more code has to be written for this to happen. (This would be a "simple truth" of development.) And earlier you said that the increased power of the platform would not raise development costs, because they have more room to work in. But how is this possible if games are made to run at the peak fo their hardware? It's not. derp.

I don't know what you do for a living, but you're obviously not a developer or a manager. If you really want to know my qualifications on speaking for this matter I'll be pompous and list them.
I was reffering to compiling one and exactly the same piece of code for two different platforms, not the general meanders of coding. Optimizing takes alot of time and creates unnecessary costs.

As I said before, it's not the fact that "better hardware" produces issues with programming and thus becomes more tedious - having more and more advanced code being programmed is a natural occourence and has little to do with hardware advancements - programmers would've released revisions upon revisions of their code making it better and better overtime regardless of whether or not the console or PC they're programming for is a powerhorse or not - it's just that HAVING those resources is better than not having them at all. If you purposely try to misread what I wrote, then yes, you may treat that as a fallacy. Unfortunatelly it's not - you're touching an unrelated issue.

EDIT: If people shared the ridiculous opinion of "y'know what? I think we have enough advancements in technology, we should stop creating newer, better hardware" eventually we'd hit a wall where nothing "better", "bigger", "more complex" can be created. Humans naturaly feel a drive towards progress and programmers desire more and more resources to make their ideas come true. If you're trying to blatantly say "Noes, that's not how it works" then you're making yourself look silly.

It's not the hardware itself that dictates the production costs, but the ambition of the creators, artists and studios. The hardware only enables (or doesn't) them to make what they imagined come true. You have to see a distinction between a direct consequence (same code can be compiled with less optimizations) and an indirect consequence (more advanced code and more content can be included).
 

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Foxi4

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BORTZ

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i dont know, i grew up on ports. I only had handhelds. Thats how i played yoshi's island for the first time, super mario world, super mario bros. 2, 3. Chrono trigger yata yata yata.
 

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Besides, I wouldnt mind having ports of the Entire Megaman X series collection on the Vita, if that were to happen, that would be a purchase from me. But knowing Capcom and their "motives" right now, I don't think its going to happen.

And as for good ports, I liked Megaman Maverick Hunter X. Granted it did have really clunky controls, but that didnt stop me from enjoying it. Its all about preference. I didn't get to spend a lot of time with the PSP I had, but the time I did have it I had fun with it.
 

Foxi4

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Myeh. I chose not to give the Portendo 3DS any praise until I am 100% certain that MGS3 3D isn't all fcuked up like I assume it is, Revelations will turn out to be pleasant and Monster Hunter 4 is released. Right now the first images that come to my mind when I think "3DS" is "Old games in HD, most notably N64 ones".

I mean, c'mon... OOT3D (which isn't a port, apparently, but isn't far from it either), StarFox3D, Street Fighter 4 3D, Metal Gear Solid 3 3D (which admittedly isn't a port, but still), Rayman, Devil Survivor, Tales of the Abyss, Conduit 3DS (comming up soon), Monster Hunter Tri... sometimes you get the feeling that a group of game developers got together and decided "you know what? Fcuk it, let's just re-release stuff - people won't know any better anyways, they'll lap it up".
 

Mangofett

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And besides... you contradicted yourself anyway. If your claim of games are made to be run at the peak of their hardware is true, this means that more resources have to be made and more code has to be written for this to happen. (This would be a "simple truth" of development.) And earlier you said that the increased power of the platform would not raise development costs, because they have more room to work in. But how is this possible if games are made to run at the peak fo their hardware? It's not. derp.

I don't know what you do for a living, but you're obviously not a developer or a manager. If you really want to know my qualifications on speaking for this matter I'll be pompous and list them.
I was reffering to compiling one and exactly the same piece of code for two different platforms, not the general meanders of coding. Optimizing takes alot of time and creates unnecessary costs.

As I said before, it's not the fact that "better hardware" produces issues with programming and thus becomes more tedious - having more and more advanced code being programmed is a natural occourence and has little to do with hardware advancements - programmers would've released revisions upon revisions of their code making it better and better overtime regardless of whether or not the console or PC they're programming for is a powerhorse or not - it's just that HAVING those resources is better than not having them at all. If you purposely try to misread what I wrote, then yes, you may treat that as a fallacy. Unfortunatelly it's not - you're touching an unrelated issue.

EDIT: If people shared the ridiculous opinion of "y'know what? I think we have enough advancements in technology, we should stop creating newer, better hardware" eventually we'd hit a wall where nothing "better", "bigger", "more complex" can be created. Humans naturaly feel a drive towards progress and programmers desire more and more resources to make their ideas come true. If you're trying to blatantly say "Noes, that's not how it works" then you're making yourself look silly.

It's not the hardware itself that dictates the production costs, but the ambition of the creators, artists and studios. The hardware only enables (or doesn't) them to make what they imagined come true. You have to see a distinction between a direct consequence (same code can be compiled with less optimizations) and an indirect consequence (more advanced code and more content can be included).
I think you're the one reading my post wrong, or just missing some fundamental information.

"As I said before, it's not the fact that "better hardware" produces issues with programming and thus becomes more tedious" - wrong. This is a fact and is not up for debate. >_> I fail to see how you don't understand this. As a single example, if you have a game console with multiple cores (PS3 has 1 core and 7 SPE subcores) each core will have to be managed manually. So when you have a tri-core system like the 360, and move code from it to the PS3's more adundant but less capable cores, (and this is a bit silly example) it will be like trying to put a cake cut into the 3 slices in 8 small boxes. Where the boxes are in two different sizes. Stupid example, but it illustrates how ports run worse on PS3 though it has more theoretical power.

As far as game programming goes, you can't compile the exact same piece of code for two different platforms, so I don't know what you're trying to compare. (Ports still take hundreds of hours of (re)programming at least and you will end up with a non-optimized version.)

In an ideal world, the hardware would not dictate cost of development, but rather ambition as you said. That is not however the case. You have to make games reach a certain production level so they have a chance at competing in the market. That is why so much restructuring has to be done in the financial department, and that's why so many companies have merged together. (On a side note: It is for this reason a market for middleware was created (example: game engines) and they are not cheap. For instance, under certain terms, Unreal Engine 3's licensing cost for video games is 25% of revenue. That is a lot of money.)

Hopefully you can put the two together and realise what I'm saying. I do understand the argument you're trying to make, I really do, but it just doesn't work that way (for the aforementioned reasons). You're good at arguing, but you don't have your facts straight.
 

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I suppose there's a grain of truth in both what you're saying and what I'm saying - I was always taught that the truth lies somewhere in-between. With today's SDK's, optimising is greatly simplified, and that obviously sprouts from technological advancements. To add to that, platforms are more advanced, so technically, resource management is simplier, but, as you said, games become bigger and bigger, making it a viscious cycle. I see what you're trying to say and I have to agree that you can't just copy-paste the entire code from one platform to another, but some parts of it can actually be "transplanted" like that if they're using standarized libraries, which is another wonderful thing.

The PS3 does have more power, but I have to agree that it suffers from "The Saturn Problem" - its hardware built is too complex for its own good, but the SDK and devkit bundled with it at least helps solving some of those issues.

I do tend to think in "the ideal world", I apologize for that. Like I said, valid points were risen in the discussion and we both see our points - better than nothing, right? ;)
 
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Deleted_171835

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You know why the vita wouldn't fail? Because Sony won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the nGage wouldn't fail? Because Nokia won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the Virtual Boy wouldn't fail? Because Nintendo won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the Pippin wouldn't fail? Because Apple won't let it. That all it is to it.
 
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KingVamp

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You know why the vita wouldn't fail? Because Sony won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the nGage wouldn't fail? Because Nokia won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the Virtual Boy wouldn't fail? Because Nintendo won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the Pippin wouldn't fail? Because Apple won't let it. That all it is to it.
While I see your point, all those are old and I just didn't see it in this day and age for Sony or Nintendo
with all their experience, to mess up that badly.

I mean what could/would Sony do if it fails?
 

Foxi4

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You know why the vita wouldn't fail? Because Sony won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the nGage wouldn't fail? Because Nokia won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the Virtual Boy wouldn't fail? Because Nintendo won't let it. That all it is to it.
You know why the Pippin wouldn't fail? Because Apple won't let it. That all it is to it.
I mean what could/would Sony do if it fails?
They'll continue selling TV's, laptops, smartphones, music, movies... (goes on for, like, forever)
 
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xist

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Actually there is a lot of truth in what some trolls have been saying....Sony is in a very bad way financially at the moment. They're counting on the Vita being a success to secure a tiny bit of their financial spiralling.

I don't expect them to ensure the Vita succeeds no matter what, but what i do expect is a level of support that the PSP never saw to try and raise consumer awareness and drive sales.
 

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