Joe Biden is now officially the 46th President of the United States of America

[gamefan5]

Thing is, that shouldn't even be part of the equation- a company cranking up the avarice and economically abusing its workers for greater profits should not be possible, either by limiting how little a company can pay for a given amount of work (minimum wage but more proportional to the work done- still ideally set the absolute minimum at "not much but livable") or limiting how much a company can make someone work for a given wage (basically the same principle but inverted with similar results).

Like I said, if people do not want to work in such bad conditions, they can threaten to leave the workforce. Companies are very dependent on them in order to provide the service they need to provide.

Companies can be avaricious, but they also need to consider how they treat their workers or else they will fail, as well. Minimum wage or no minimum wage. That’s why unions are a thing.

All I am saying is that, it isn’t as bad as you make it out to be, especially in some of the richer countries where the notion of minimum wages are not a thing.

 

[Deleted User]

You work, so that society benefits and you get something in return. Even the richest people have to invest their time in their own companies in order to get something in return.

Then why is it that the man on the top who does so little is rewarded almost 20 times the average man?
No person should be able to profit off the backs of thousands to that degree.

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they can threaten to leave the workforce.

they cannot threaten that.
You don't get it.
You need a job to live.
As long as it remains that way you are fodder to companies
something to consume, burn out, and if rejects you or tastes bad, then thrown into the trash.

 

[Plasmaster09]

Like I said, if people do not want to work in such bad conditions, they can threaten to leave the workforce. Companies are very dependent on them in order to provide the service they need to provide.

Companies can be avaricious, but they also need to consider how they treat their workers or else they will fail, as well. Minimum wage or no minimum wage. That’s why unions are a thing.

All I am saying is that, it isn’t as bad as you make it out to be, especially in some of the richer countries where the notion of minimum wages are not a thing.

once again, I must bring to the table that this isn't discussing changes to those countries- it's discussing changes to the USA, the fifty-with-error-bars-stated national-scale example of how capitalism can go too fucking far.
What you're saying doesn't apply, because plenty of big companies already have such large holds that people can neither threaten to leave them nor (in the case of consumers) threaten to not buy from them.
They're basically feeding themselves with their own greed, and said greed isn't exactly going to run out on its own.

Now that I think about it, neither you nor Foxi are 'Murican yourselves- you're sitting at the top of a fortified steel tower looking at a pile of shattered glass going "Eh, just weld it back together. It'll be fine, it worked for us!"

 

[gamefan5]

That is not how life works.
Our lives are man-made. The idea of capitalism is man made, the idea of money is man made.
If your going to try to argue "that's how life works"
Then your describing people in the past back as cave men.
Nothing about our world is natural.
We don't have to accept things, we can strive for better. It is stupid to accept something as is.
We define things, we give shape to things,
I see no reason why we can't change our absurd society.

Defeatist mindset much.

I’m not defeatist. I’m just realistic. To get something of value, you have to give something of value back.
If that’s not natural sure, we can debate that on a philosophical level.

Sure, feel free to change the very economic system. It’s either going to go to Capitalism, to Communism, to Socialism, usually.
But if you have something new in mind that is sustainable in the long run and can be adopted on a worldwide level, then I cannot wait to see how it shapes.

 

[Deleted User]

I’m not defeatist. I’m just realistic.

Fucking LMAO
"guys it's not defeatist I'm just being ReAliStIc"
It is,
"it sucks but that's sadly how it is"
That is defeatist mindset.

To get something of value, you have to give something of value back.

Your right, the issue is that your not getting value back. Again, why can the top 1% make 20 times the amount than the bottom 90%
Keep in mind, this isn't a vaccum. That top1% is employing people from the bottom 90%. and is making their money from that bottom 90%
That bottom 90% is not getting their value back. Plain and simple. And as long as corporations effectively own everyone through capitalism and we say
"well this is fine" it will remain that way.

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But if you have something new in mind that is sustainable

Implying that socialism or communism or any other mode of economics isn't sustainable?
for fuck sakes dude capitalism isn't. Capitalism treats the world like we have infinite resources.
We don't. We have finite resources

 

[Foxi4]

If you don't want to work for anybody, start a business and work for yourself - banks will happily fund a good business plan, they're in the profession of burning money on upstarts. Just keep in mind that the failure rate is 90% or so, so if you're not smart, productive and diligent, this "easy life" might be too hard for you. That said, where there's risk, there's rewards. In any case, it's been a page or two of econ talk now, I hope everyone got everything out of their systems, because it's about time to get back to Biden. On-topic, fellas.

 

[gamefan5]

Then why is it that the man on the top who does so little is rewarded almost 20 times the average man?
No person should be able to profit off the backs of thousands to that degree.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


they cannot threaten that.
You don't get it.
You need a job to live.
As long as it remains that way you are fodder to companies
something to consume, burn out, and if rejects you or tastes bad, then thrown into the trash.

Because as I said before, the difference is time and the amount people earn. And that will always be unequal in some way. Even in economic backgrounds that isn’t capitalism.

And yes they can. Those are called lockouts. That costs huge money to companies.

No, I do get it. Minimum wages, believe it or not, are a large part of the reason why homelessness is a thing, because they cannot find jobs that would make them money, as the companies would not be able to pay them, at their current level of workforce.

At the same time, if people are paid too low, they can also keep the job, reduce their spendings in some way and search for something better. That will be at the loss of the company abusing them, simply put.
And I don’t know about you, but if the amount of money isn’t adequate in some way to how much I pay, I either make a sacrifice to reduce spending, or I just don’t accept the work offering.

For everyone to have an acceptable living conditions would be great, don’t get me wrong. But it requires drastic measures that aren’t that easy to implement. Raising the minimum wage for example, would actually make things worse. Especially during this pandemic.

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If you don't want to work for anybody, start a business and work for yourself - banks will happily fund a good business plan, they're in the profession of burning money on upstarts. Just keep in mind that the failure rate is 90% or so, so if you're not smart, productive and diligent, this "easy life" might be too hard for you. That said, where there's risk, there's rewards. In any case, it's been a page or two of econ talk now, I hope everyone got everything out of their systems, because it's about time to get back to Biden. On-topic, fellas.

Exactly, thank you for that.

 

[Deleted User]

If you don't want to work for anybody, start a business and work for yourself - banks will happily fund a good business plan,

Ah yes, start a business idea. It's heavily flawed.
Would of worked back in the past. really doesn't now considering how saturated the market is, or the fact corporations have way more ad power than your little business.And if your even remotely close in the same market and your doing well
get prepared to get bought out.
Like every other business.

 

[Darth Meteos]

If you don't want to work for anybody, start a business and work for yourself - banks will happily fund a good business plan, they're in the profession of burning money on upstarts. Just keep in mind that the failure rate is 90% or so, so if you're not smart, productive and diligent, this "easy life" might be too hard for you. That said, where there's risk, there's rewards. In any case, it's been a page or two of econ talk now, I hope everyone got everything out of their systems, because it's about time to get back to Biden. On-topic, fellas.

i love that you get to say something dumb as fuck then forbid responses to your dumbfuck statement

That is not how life works.

don'tcha know, monkeyman? capitalism is an inherent part of the universe itself
why, if we were to meddle with it, we would be inviting disaster upon ourselves

remarkable how things that make the rich richer are so immutable, but healthcare for all, (something that exists in every modern nation) is out of our reach
i wonder who actually controls the levers of power

 

[Deleted User]

why, if we were to meddle with it, we would be inviting disaster upon ourselves

Like a orange cheez it, with a sharpy marking an arrow for the trajectory of a supposed hurricane ontop of a map that says a different trajectory?

 

[Foxi4]

i love that you get to say something dumb as fuck then forbid responses to your dumbfuck statement

The conversation has shifted from the subject of the thread and became circular, there's no point in continuing it. Not only that, I already said my peace a good page ago - I'm not part of the exchange anymore, nobody's responding to *me*, so you're misrepresenting the circumstances.

 

[Darth Meteos]

Like a orange cheez it, with a sharpy marking an arrow for the trajectory of a supposed hurricane ontop of a map that says a different trajectory?

that's science, man, hard science
can't be fuckin' with science now, y'hear

 

[Deleted User]

that's science, man, hard science
can't be fuckin' with science now, y'hear

Your right......

Spoiler

may the cheeto man tell us all of his "scientific" prophecies...
I heard that bombing hurricanes is a good solution

 

[Plasmaster09]

Your right......

Spoiler

may the cheeto man tell us all of his "scientific" prophecies...
I heard that bombing hurricanes is a good solution

Spoiler

It's like pissing in the wind, but on a grander scale and significantly more likely to kill people!

 

[Darth Meteos]

In the current world, we have enough wealth and power to correct some long-standing ills of our society.

For one, we can guarantee housing to all, and decommodify the housing market, since having shelter and storage is something we all need to live safely
We are capable of doing this, if we put our minds to it. There are over half a million homeless people in the United States right now that simply do not have to be if a sweeping works project was put into place. This would employ millions of people who otherwise might not be employed- they could even be taught a trade while doing this. The economic benefits of it would be magnificent.

But... We're not doing that. Why? The usual objection: "How're you gonna pay for it?"
The United States spends trillions on its military without a way to pay for it, though. Nobody ever questions how we're gonna fund the military. These people are tacitly implying that the military is a better place to spend money than on housing and employing people, a better place than ensuring education to all who want it, or healthcare, or a universal basic wage, or infrastructure projects, etc etc.

If you are deadass gonna say to me that this cannot happen, I urge you to bring to me the immutable law of the universe that says it cannot be so. The critical physical limitation to our understanding that makes this an impossibility... Where is it?

Or is the only thing standing in the way of a better future the same mob of cancers who always stand in front of progress? The same ones who stood in the way of paid vacation, or social security, or the working weekend, or the abolishment of child labor- any meaningful change our history? The rich, the powerful, those who profit from human misery.

What are your rights, citizen? You can choose your master so you can feed yourself, and clothe yourself, and go on the internets to laugh at the may mays. You have no rights in a workplace. You do what the boss says, or you're removed! A libertarian is waiting to tell you that's your right to find new work, but that's just another master. You can make a business of your own, and still labor for your ability to eat, and then you can one day own some employees you control for your very own, and underpay them for their labor just like you used to be.

"It's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it."

 

[FAST6191]

On minimum wage
One thing to remember
"The real minimum wage is zero"
Choice video



I don't see how the US is so radically different to the rest of the world. I have lived and been around workers in much of the US, the UK and Europe as well. Not seeing the fundamental difference that changes things here -- people spend the first however many years being in a school such that they can dress themselves, then from 18-21 (maybe 16-18 in some fields) for most typical setups they spend another 3 years getting some form of training to enter a real market, and if you are good at one in any of those you can probably perform elsewhere if you just read the relevant regs in the other country (cars work much the same in the UK as they do in Europe and in the US, so do bricks, water pretty sure did not flow uphill, blood types appear to be the same notion, and steel was still steel though the septics did mispronounce aluminium for some strange reason) and maybe learn a few words.
This gig economy lark, and the nature of self employment over time, would also speak to something of the US being amenable to self employment.

There is a reason I don't hire an old boy to spend a Saturday taking tickets in my car park any more, there is a reason why when faced with having to spunk out minimum wage rates I will avoid hiring anybody not as capable (sorry dude with downs that I know can wash my dishes at least, gonna need someone that can double up elsewhere when needed and rapid speed it).


and in a move that will likely spark another little flame war. I can see a case for universal basic income before I can see a case for keeping minimum wage. If anything you earn is gravy rather than expected to make do I reckon that makes for a better setup.


There is also the thing wherein one wants to look at who is plumping for the minimum wage. As a hint you do often find some nice big companies going for it and as many have said they don't do anything out of the kindness of their heart -- mcdonalds can have its overheads down low and pay $30 an hour if it has to, fairly killer for mary's burger shack in comparison.

 

[Darth Meteos]

and in a move that will likely spark another little flame war. I can see a case for universal basic income before I can see a case for keeping minimum wage. If anything you earn is gravy rather than expected to make do I reckon that makes for a better setup.

i would agree, but universal basic income ties a lot of the country to the whims of the ruling party
every time a republican gets in, they would reduce it, or inflict penalties on it
a minimum wage plus ubi system is safer, because it makes it harder to totally destroy it

 

[Foxi4]

i would agree, but universal basic income ties a lot of the country to the whims of the ruling party
every time a republican gets in, they would reduce it, or inflict penalties on it
a minimum wage plus ubi system is safer, because it makes it harder to totally destroy it

There we go, an interesting notion! I'm in two minds about UBI. My heart says "no", my head says that Friedman knew what he was talking about. There are certainly some advantages in the government ensuring that you don't starve - a baseline is not an insane notion. Will it increase the number of layabouts? Sure. That said, it also introduces the ability to try, fail and not destroy your life in the process. I can imagine people striving for more knowing that they're jumping over a puddle and not a pit. Something I have to dedicate more time on before I form an opinion on it. Has Biden broached the subject at any point? I fully expect him to be Obama 2.0, so I doubt it.

 

[Lacius]

Discourse. Whatever. Politicos chat nonsense. That is what they do. The thing where they are lying or disingenuous when their lips are moving works just as well even they are to be the next one caught in a hotel with 5 pool boys whilst harping about about the evils of dem gays in public.

It takes a special kind of privilege to refer to political discourse about issues that directly affect people's livelihoods as "politicos chat nonsense."

What actions were taken, things allowed to happen, crimes against, progress slowed or things that were blocked from happening in the last 4 years that could reasonably be tied to el presidente and things he has control over? Or indeed go more local if you want and the supreme court did not wade in to say "maybe not doing that".

Buckle up, Señor Privilegio. And screw off for implying that elections don't have direct consequences for people who don't have your level of privilege.

1. It takes a special kind of privilege to not acknowledge how the Trump presidency affected LGBT people alone.
2. Defying precedent, the Trump White House did not formally recognize Pride Month, nor did the State Department.
3. Soon after Trump was sworn in, LGBT rights and recognition were scrubbed from government and White House websites.
4. Trump sought to remove questions related to LGBT people from the census, erasing them from the count.
5. Trump sought to remove LGBT issues from the Commerce Department's equal employment policy.
6. Trump banned trans people from the military.
7. Trump ordered the Department of Education to remove nondiscrimination protections for trans students.
8. Trump ordered the Department of Education to automatically reject civil rights complaints from trans students.
9. The Trump administration sought to retain federal funding for schools that discriminate against LGBT people.
10. Trump announced a proposal that would remove anti-discrimination protections for trans patients in health care.
11. Trump proposed a regulation that would directly enable medical professions to deny all forms any/all care to LGBT patients based solely on a provider's personal beliefs.
12. Trump established a new office within HHS with the sole purpose of defending physicians and medical professions who refuse care to LGBT patients.
13. Trump granted a federally funded foster program to discriminate against families who are LGBT (as well as anyone who is not Christian).
14. Trump circulated a federal government-wide regulation to erase trans people from all existing protections and acknowledgement completely.
15. Trump ordered the Centers for Disease Control to stop using the word "transgender" in official reports.
16. Trump proposed a rule to eliminate data collection on LGBT foster youth and parents, erasing all official knowledge of the needs of LGBT children.
17. Trump ordered questions on sexual orientation to be removed from surveys of programs that relate to the elderly and disabled.
18. Trump ordered HUD and Ben Carson to remove the words "inclusive" and "free from discrimination" from HUD's official mission statement.
19. Trump ordered HUD and Ben Carson to scale back enforcement of nondiscrimination regulations.
    
20. Trump ordered HUD and Ben Carson to permit emergency shelters to deny to access to transgender person who are homeless.
21. Trump ordered HUD to cancel a survey on LGBT homelessness.
22. Trump and the Trump Justice Department filed a brief in the U.S. Court of appeals that argued federal civil rights laws do not protect LGBT people from discrimination.
23. Trump and Jeff Sessions issued broad guidelines to permit individuals to discriminate against LGBT people based on personal beliefs.
24. Trump and Jeff Sessions specifically announced that the law doesn't disallow discrimination against trans people.
    
25. Trump defended businesses who openly discriminated against LGBT people.
26. Trump rolled back all protections for trans people in our prison system.
27. Trump issued an executive order rolling back nondiscrimination protections for LGBT federal contractors.
28. Trump ordered the State Department to deny visas to same-sex partners of foreign diplomats.
29. Trump changed the rules specifically so the child of a same-sex couple born abroad via surrogate would be considered "born out of wedlock" and would not be granted U.S. citizenship.
30. Trump removed the United States from the U.N. Human Rights Council, largely on the basis of LGBT issues.
31. Trump refused to sign a statement condemning attacks on LGBT people in Chechnya because of #30.
32. Trump ordered the USDA to remove a department policy specifically welcoming LGBT children in the 4-H program.
33. Trump's nominations to the federal courts, as well as the Supreme Court, have expressed anti-LGBT views. Many have implied or overtly stated opposition to basic rights like marriage equality, and marriage equality could realistically be repealed.
34. Trump's ICE has specifically mistreated LGBT migrants and asylum seekers.
35. Trump has engaged in blatant inaction with regard to LGBT issues, including but not limited to violence against trans people.

And this list is laser focused on LGBT issues. There are many more affecting other groups.

You can be concerned about the plights of others, however if said plights are generally the same as everybody else and you see no great ills befalling them or injustices done against them, and deem it unlikely any kind of backsliding will happen (most rights more recently afforded tend to be done at the highest levels and on the basis of fundamental aspects of law so undoing is probably hard) then it seems like an irrelevant factor.

It takes a special kind of privilege to think your plights are "generally the same as everybody else's."

 

[wartutor]

Damn biden has been in office for 1 day and everyone of his followers are saying steal from the rich and give free money to us. Typical democrats wanting "free money" that they didn't earn.